What did God do before creation?

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Profile Sarge
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Message 1290266 - Posted: 2 Oct 2012, 1:36:43 UTC - in response to Message 1290245.  


You are correct, but purists would use a dot or line over the first decimal figure. But of course you would never be that picky ... ;-))



I would, but both are accepted conventions and, short of embedding a pic or maybe ... maybe looking up an arcane bbcode, the ellipsis is preferable,
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Message 1290267 - Posted: 2 Oct 2012, 1:38:42 UTC - in response to Message 1290248.  


You are correct, but purists would use a dot or line over the first decimal figure. But of course you would never be that picky ... ;-))




My question about the equality or otherwise of 1/3 and 0.333333.... was to William Rothamel, I'll wait for his answer.

While waiting, and seeing as you have time on your hands, maybe you could answer what is 1 - 0.999999....?


No, betreger, nothing has changed, but William wants to bring in another, currently nonstandard view, the hyperreals.
From the standard view, the equalities Bobby and I state ae correct.
And if Chris does not want to answer, I'll wait precisely 0 seconds before giving bobby my version of the answer. :)
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Message 1290282 - Posted: 2 Oct 2012, 3:32:11 UTC

There are those here who do not believe that:

(infinity) * 1 / (infinity) = 1

is a true statement.

This because an application of the associative and communicative laws results in:

{1 / (infinity)} + {1 / (infinity)} + {1 / (infinity)} {repeated (infinity) times} = 1

If they were to believe that, then any positive probability for the universe and given an infinity of time results in certainty that the universe arose from random chance.

Of course in Algebra we are taught that: A * 1/A = 1. There is no special magic by replacing A by (infinity).

So in answer to the question: What did God do before creation? He waited for the right random number sequence? He rigged it so we can't answer the question? He created himself with time?

There is no satisfactory answer to the question.

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bobby "snowflake"
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Message 1290289 - Posted: 2 Oct 2012, 4:10:01 UTC - in response to Message 1290282.  

There are those here who do not believe that:

(infinity) * 1 / (infinity) = 1

is a true statement.

This because an application of the associative and communicative laws results in:

{1 / (infinity)} + {1 / (infinity)} + {1 / (infinity)} {repeated (infinity) times} = 1

If they were to believe that, then any positive probability for the universe and given an infinity of time results in certainty that the universe arose from random chance.

Of course in Algebra we are taught that: A * 1/A = 1. There is no special magic by replacing A by (infinity).

So in answer to the question: What did God do before creation? He waited for the right random number sequence? He rigged it so we can't answer the question? He created himself with time?

There is no satisfactory answer to the question.


With A=0 the equation falls down. I suspect that the mathematicians here can show why the same is true with A=(infinity).
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1290326 - Posted: 2 Oct 2012, 6:32:37 UTC - in response to Message 1290282.  

There are those here who do not believe that:

(infinity) * 1 / (infinity) = 1

is a true statement.

This because an application of the associative and communicative laws results in:

{1 / (infinity)} + {1 / (infinity)} + {1 / (infinity)} {repeated (infinity) times} = 1

If they were to believe that, then any positive probability for the universe and given an infinity of time results in certainty that the universe arose from random chance.

Of course in Algebra we are taught that: A * 1/A = 1. There is no special magic by replacing A by (infinity).

I dont believe it because I know that infinity/infinity its not equal to 1.

It happens that Infinity its not necessarily equal to infinity. (there are infinite points in a line, there are infinite points in a plane, and its not hard to see that there should be more points in a plane than in a line... thats because the number of points in the plane is an infinite of a higher order of magnitude than the number of points in the line (and my wording its not fully right as there are no such thing as the "number of points in a line" because the set of points that belongs to a line is a not an enumerable set).

infinity / infinity, 0 * infinity, 1/0, 0/0 and 1/infinity are undeterminated values and the result of such operations can only be solved using limits and knowing the function that gives the "infinity" or "zero" value.

You can say that the limit when n tends to infinity of n/n is equal to 1
But, the limit when n tends to infinity of n/n^2 (which is also infinity/infinity) equals 0... Take out the magic word "limit" and you will get that 0 = infinity/infinity = 1 => 0=1!! Avada Kedabra!

(I just hope that all this makes sense in english... Ive learned maths in spanish, and learned english mostly reading things on internet, so its highly probable that Im not using the right "technical" words...)
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Message 1290330 - Posted: 2 Oct 2012, 7:00:27 UTC - in response to Message 1290326.  

There are those here who do not believe that:

(infinity) * 1 / (infinity) = 1

is a true statement.

This because an application of the associative and communicative laws results in:

{1 / (infinity)} + {1 / (infinity)} + {1 / (infinity)} {repeated (infinity) times} = 1

If they were to believe that, then any positive probability for the universe and given an infinity of time results in certainty that the universe arose from random chance.

Of course in Algebra we are taught that: A * 1/A = 1. There is no special magic by replacing A by (infinity).

I dont believe it because I know that infinity/infinity its not equal to 1.

It happens that Infinity its not necessarily equal to infinity. (there are infinite points in a line, there are infinite points in a plane, and its not hard to see that there should be more points in a plane than in a line... thats because the number of points in the plane is an infinite of a higher order of magnitude than the number of points in the line (and my wording its not fully right as there are no such thing as the "number of points in a line" because the set of points that belongs to a line is a not an enumerable set).

infinity / infinity, 0 * infinity, 1/0, 0/0 and 1/infinity are undeterminated values and the result of such operations can only be solved using limits and knowing the function that gives the "infinity" or "zero" value.

You can say that the limit when n tends to infinity of n/n is equal to 1
But, the limit when n tends to infinity of n/n^2 (which is also infinity/infinity) equals 0... Take out the magic word "limit" and you will get that 0 = infinity/infinity = 1 => 0=1!! Avada Kedabra!

(I just hope that all this makes sense in english... Ive learned maths in spanish, and learned english mostly reading things on internet, so its highly probable that Im not using the right "technical" words...)


c^2 = c.
If you want something larger than c, you need the cardinality of the power set of the reals, for example.
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Message 1290347 - Posted: 2 Oct 2012, 9:54:17 UTC

My question about the equality or otherwise of 1/3 and 0.333333.... was to William Rothamel, I'll wait for his answer.

While waiting, and seeing as you have time on your hands, maybe you could answer what is 1 - 0.999999....?


Oooh me espies a chink in the mighty ones armour :-)

1 - 0.99999 recurring is 0.00001 with the last zero recurring, I would have thought. And even if it isn't, what does it matter in the scheme of things. In terms of God and maths, we all know the answer is 42 anyway.

Always got time to chat to you Bobby, everyone needs their litle bit of amusement for the day.

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Message 1290382 - Posted: 2 Oct 2012, 12:14:35 UTC - in response to Message 1290347.  
Last modified: 2 Oct 2012, 12:17:38 UTC

My question about the equality or otherwise of 1/3 and 0.333333.... was to William Rothamel, I'll wait for his answer.

While waiting, and seeing as you have time on your hands, maybe you could answer what is 1 - 0.999999....?


Oooh me espies a chink in the mighty ones armour :-)

1 - 0.99999 recurring is 0.00001 with the last zero recurring, I would have thought. And even if it isn't, what does it matter in the scheme of things. In terms of God and maths, we all know the answer is 42 anyway.

Always got time to chat to you Bobby, everyone needs their litle bit of amusement for the day.



Solve for x, 10x - x = 9.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1290412 - Posted: 2 Oct 2012, 14:15:59 UTC

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Message 1290428 - Posted: 2 Oct 2012, 14:40:50 UTC - in response to Message 1290412.  


ROFL...

The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.
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bobby "snowflake"
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Message 1290433 - Posted: 2 Oct 2012, 14:49:24 UTC - in response to Message 1290412.  
Last modified: 2 Oct 2012, 14:50:55 UTC



Very amusing, was 10x - x = 9 so difficult?

10x - x = 9 => x(10 - 1) = 9 => 9x = 9 => 9x/9 = 9/9 => x = 1

agreed?

Now let's try substituting 0.999999... for x and see what happens:

(10 x 0.999999...) - 0.999999... = ?

10 x 0.999999... = 9.999999...

x = 1 | x = 0.999999...
10x   |   9.999999...
- x   | - 0.999999...
= 9   | = 9.000000...


oh dear, if x = 0.999999..., then 10x - x = 9, though we just showed that when 10x - x = 9 is solved for x, x is 1, thus 0.999999... = 1, so 1 - 0.999999... = 0, just like Sarge hinted at.

Where was that chink?
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1290477 - Posted: 2 Oct 2012, 23:51:10 UTC - in response to Message 1290433.  

1 - 0.999999... = 0, just like Sarge hinted at.

Where was that chink?


Indeed.
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Message 1290480 - Posted: 2 Oct 2012, 23:57:56 UTC

What was god doing before the creation? Laying down the groundwork for Maths, so that once the creation was finished, the "many" can be bamboozled by the "few".
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Message 1290507 - Posted: 3 Oct 2012, 1:21:14 UTC - in response to Message 1290480.  

What was god doing before the creation? Laying down the groundwork for Maths, so that once the creation was finished, the "many" can be bamboozled by the "few".

No bamboozling.
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Message 1290512 - Posted: 3 Oct 2012, 1:39:24 UTC - in response to Message 1290507.  

What was god doing before the creation? Laying down the groundwork for Maths, so that once the creation was finished, the "many" can be bamboozled by the "few".

No bamboozling.


Yep, definitely bamboozling.
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Message 1290535 - Posted: 3 Oct 2012, 2:51:04 UTC

Anyone who believes in God knows that it has a wonderful since of humour.
My question is: “What’s to argue about?”
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Message 1290588 - Posted: 3 Oct 2012, 5:44:01 UTC - in response to Message 1290535.  

What did God do before creation?

We will never find out, in this lifetime.
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Message 1290590 - Posted: 3 Oct 2012, 5:47:28 UTC

Lynn +1



(we may however engage our minds a game of fruitless conjecture....)
Bob Smith
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Message 1290630 - Posted: 3 Oct 2012, 8:21:43 UTC

He covered the chink up again when I wasn't looking! Of course the original equation solve for x, 10x - x = 9, has an answer of x=1, I did that in my head in 3 seconds. I didn't answer as I thought you were being facetious. As to the second bit, I'm trying to figure out why APPARENTLY 0.99999.... =1 when it shouldn't do. I can only guess that it flouts some mathematical rule about dealing with infinity numbers. I'm trying to recall whether you could ever catch that bus by travelling 1/2 way towards it all the time, in theory you never would, it may be something similar.

Interesting though.
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Message 1290708 - Posted: 3 Oct 2012, 12:11:36 UTC - in response to Message 1290630.  

He covered the chink up again when I wasn't looking! Of course the original equation solve for x, 10x - x = 9, has an answer of x=1, I did that in my head in 3 seconds. I didn't answer as I thought you were being facetious. As to the second bit, I'm trying to figure out why APPARENTLY 0.99999.... =1 when it shouldn't do. I can only guess that it flouts some mathematical rule about dealing with infinity numbers. I'm trying to recall whether you could ever catch that bus by travelling 1/2 way towards it all the time, in theory you never would, it may be something similar.

Interesting though.


0.999999... = 1 does not flout any rule in math that I (or, it seems, Sarge, a math teacher and wikipedia) know about. There was no facetiousness on my part, if you had provided a value for x my next question would have been to ask you to use 0.999999... instead of x on the left hand side and see if the result was different. Similar equations (10x - x = 3) can be used show that 1/3 = 0.333333... and (10x - x = 1) 1/9 = 0.111111... The wikipedia page provides a number of other mathematical proofs for the equality of 0.999999... and 1.

Your bus example demonstrates a difference between the physical world and the world of math, in math recurring division can carry on to infinity, in the physical world, there is a minimum length (Planck length).
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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