Blurf, on June 25 "In the 5-to-4 ruling on Monday, the court summarily reversed a decision of the Montana Supreme Court that had upheld a state law limiting independent political spending by corporations. That decision, the United States Supreme Court said, was flatly at odds with Citizens United, which said the First Amendment allows corporations and unions to spend as much as they like to support or oppose political candidates." this is an example of a special interest group overturning a century old law and the will of the citizens attempting to limit the voice of non citizens. Is that not an example? Fox new attempting to shape our society, is that not another? If you disagree then so be it.

---

OK, the way I see it, one example is the fossil fuel industry. Look at the law suit that they recently won in Montana. They want more drilling and mining rights with less regulation. Media companies want to merge across platforms such as newspapers and television so our knowledge base can be limited. I do believe Rupert Murdoch does have a political agenda. IMO, I am witnessing the growth of an oligarchy as our form of government.

People are asking you for examples--please at least give us the courtesy of answers regarding your statement.

---

They are more likely to be surrounded by crime, drug and alcohol abuse and untreated mental illness.

Ah, circular logic. I think you can to better ES.

It's a circular problem. I thought that much was obvious. To solve it you have to figure out ways to break the cycle.

Calling it a cycle makes it interesting. Are the numbers of poor blacks so huge in comparison to poor Hispanics, poor white, poor pacific islanders, that is the reason for the disparity is incarceration rates? A research question.

The Headstart Programwas created to try and tackle the causes early and help break the cycle of poverty. It has had some success. Unfortunately Romney has stated that he will cut this program.

I thought he was going to cut ALL programs.

True, but this thread of conversation began with a discussion of why there are more minorities in prison than whites. My point was that poverty is more of an indicator than race. It just so happens because of the history of the US you are more likely to be poor if you are black or Hispanic. I picked that particular program because it was one targeted at breaking the cycle through different support programs and education.

Remember, there are children in these welfare families. When you raise a child in poverty without the nicer things in life (for example two parents, in some cases because of the ridiculous incarceration rates both parents are in jail) they are more likely to continue down the path their parents took.

So being poor is a reliable predictor of criminal activity. A conclusion then would be to concentrate police resources looking at the poor as they would be more likely to catch criminals. Programs like stop and frisk. I'm sure you didn't mean this ES.

I stated the problem. If that is how you would solve it then there is a fundamental difference between you and I. BTW, what you describe is exactly what happens now anyway. The police call it profiling. Another name for it is "driving while black".

If I thought that was the solution I wouldn't carry my ACLU card. But that thought process is a logical result of the observation that poverty is a reliable indicator of criminal activity. This was what I was questioning you on.

Or, did you mean that there is a poverty culture and it accepts crime, drug and alcohol abuse and incarceration as the norm.

Sadly this is the case. Children raised in this environment haven't been shown another way of living. If a teenager sees one adult working for 50 hours a week for minimum wage and another earning $1000s drug dealing, which career do you think they will aspire to?

The one that is glamorized in Hollywood movies.

Self satisfaction for a job well done and good days work is a missing concept in society today. Part of the issue.

Imagine someone like our poster William Rothamel owned a small business and wanted to hire someone. Based on his posts I would suspect that if a Hispanic person and white person with the same qualifications and experience applied for the job, he would give it to the white person. Imagine that multiplied by 1000s of times.

I'm talking about race here as one factor because this started with the prison comment. I'd just like to point out that most welfare recipients are actually white. Being on welfare isn't the only way of being poor. People can work very hard and still be poor and need help from the government.

Is it race or is it internal culture?

Yes, the amount of manual labor is likely inversely proportional to the value of the work being done. Sad comment on how society values itself. Yes hard work isn't always a route to riches. Smart work does seem to be.

Schools are horribly underfunded in these areas (I somehow don't see Romney pledging to improve the funding of the public education system).

The social safety net you are so against is more complicated than you seem to think.

I'm not against a social safety net, I'm against a government funded one. That is why we have charities in the USA. If the government is doing that job then we shouldn't allow private interference in the important function of the government. Tax Churches. Dump 501(c)3. Of course that kills Seti@home, but the government knows best.

Oh, any of you are welcome to support one of my favorite charities, Rebekah Children's Services.

If you cut it, what will happen to the children in these families? How are families meant to go to work for minimum wage and pay childcare costs? have you ever sat down and worked out the numbers? What will eventually happen to the crime rate when the funding of the HeadStart program is cut?

If you really want to know what causes these kids to drop out spend some time talking to a teacher from one of these areas and they will tell you about all the obstacles these kids face everyday. Things that would break your heart.

The one thing they all say is the utter lack of self discipline the students have and the total disrespect for authority, how a couple of bad actors spoil every student in the class and learning is impossible. That there is no method the teacher has to do anything about the bad actors. At least that is what my friends who teach in south central LA have to say, oh that and the political gamesmanship played by the Union and the Administration that prevents any solution to the problem of teaching the students who want to learn and rise out of the ghetto.

True. There is an anti-edcuation problem that has come out of a fear of the government. On one hand teachers are seen as part of the system that has put these people in the position they are in. Couple with the constant hammering and blaming of teachers by the media and politicians there is very little respect left for the job teachers do. You can't expect the kids to respect them if no one else does.

True, unfortunately the teacher labor unions foster some of that distrust themselves.

If you want to see an example of some some the worst things that children can go through, go watch the movie "Precious". Then ask your self how amazing would someone have to be to be able to overcome that start in life.

It happens. I've know kids it has happened to..and plenty of other things you wouldn't believe.

When the gang they join is a better family than Mom and Dad, I think we know the real issue.

It's not quite as simple as that. Very good parents can lose their kids to gangs, and if a child is raised by poor parents they are less likely to end up as good parents themselves. It's a complicated problem and most bleeding heart liberals recognise that.

The gang problem has many causes, the war on drugs being one of them. Take the profit out of being a drug dealer and you will find there are less drug dealers preying on the young and the vulnerable.

Legalize. Might save enough cash in the budget to not have to make cuts to some of the social welfare programs. But we can't go bankrupt or it will be 100 times worse than any proposed cut.

<ed>fixed quote levels

---

OK, the way I see it, one example is the fossil fuel industry. Look at the law suit that they recently won in Montana. They want more drilling and mining rights with less regulation. Media companies want to merge across platforms such as newspapers and television so our knowledge base can be limited. I do believe Rupert Murdoch does have a political agenda. IMO, I am witnessing the growth of an oligarchy as our form of government.

---

P.S.

When the gang they join is a better family than Mom and Dad, I think we know the real issue.


DING!

I agree Gary hit the nail on the head right there. I've seen it first hand in my youth.

So how do we start to reverse the cycle? That's the million dollar question.

My feeling is that there is no short term solution. My feeling is that this needs to start with a massive overhaul of the education system, and then if done right perhaps in 20-30 years following generations can overcome this.

Another thing to consider is a single working mother in poverty is not afforded the luxury of time to be a parent. Even in two parent families like my son is fortunate enough to have, it is next to impossible to live off of one income and leave mom at home full time, though we make it happen. I do feel it's for the best benefit of a child.

Looking back in time, the criminal gang in America got it start with prohibition. At first it was liquor. Today it is drugs. Legalize drugs and the problem by in large will go away as it did when liquor was legalized again.

Many of the gangs won't cease to exist but the problem of them recruiting children to be in them will. It is harder to use a child to peddle gambling or run a house of ill repute. These ills of society tend to have fixed addresses and are easier to police because of that, if they cause secondary problems.

---

James. follow the money. Big bucks are involved and I am not talking about campaign contributions.

Betreger--please cite specific examples of these "big bucks" (non-campaign contributions) you mention. Thanks

Betreger-please respond to this post and answer my question.

---

For OBAMA'S SAKE!

We want free reproductive health. (code word...)
Childcare has a limited tax deduction...
---shouldn't that be a tax credit?
---Or better yet, shouldn't that be free?
Kindergarten through 12th...
---already funded by a variety of ways
---shouldn't that be totally taken over by the Dept of Education and fully funded through them so they're all equal?
---Don't we want free education?
College...
---Shouldn't that be free?
---Obama has already seized control of all student loans. Shouldn't all those loans be granted amnesty?
---There's a variety of private student grants available, shouldn't the Dept of Education seize all that money so everybody has a free education?
Job Training
---Shouldn't we require industry to include free training before hiring? After all, everybody has a right to work, right?
Free health care.
---Obamacare is well on its way to completely taking over health care in America
Free housing...
---if you qualify for it and it exists
---shouldn't we expand this program to include everyone?
Free food...
---if you qualify for it, it exists
---shouldn't we expand this program to include everyone?
Free cell phone...
---already exists...
---shouldn't we expand this to include everybody?
End of life care...
---Obamacare is well on its way to taking care of this
Burial
---Shouldn't this be free for everybody or should we continue to burden the next of kin?
---Don't we all have a right to a decent burial?

For OBAMA'S SAKE!

...

None of these things are on the table, either from the Republicans or from Obama. Which election do you think this discussion is about?

---

Reality Internet Personality

P.S.

When the gang they join is a better family than Mom and Dad, I think we know the real issue.


DING!

I agree Gary hit the nail on the head right there. I've seen it first hand in my youth.

So how do we start to reverse the cycle? That's the million dollar question.

My feeling is that there is no short term solution. My feeling is that this needs to start with a massive overhaul of the education system, and then if done right perhaps in 20-30 years following generations can overcome this.

Another thing to consider is a single working mother in poverty is not afforded the luxury of time to be a parent. Even in two parent families like my son is fortunate enough to have, it is next to impossible to live off of one income and leave mom at home full time, though we make it happen. I do feel it's for the best benefit of a child.

---

#resist

Guy, I don't believe I said anything about labor camps. I said offer them jobs that are currently not being done at a much lower cost to society than incarceration. From an economic sense it is a win win deal.

---

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/los_angeles&id=8808005

Residents were seen running out to pick up the cash, even running into the street in front of police vehicles.

For a couple of twenty dollar bills ...
Obstruction of Justice, Destruction of Evidence ... each $1000 fine and a year.

Some people make good life choices.

Followup: Local news suggested the charge would be receipt of stolen property, felony, three years. Again for a couple of twenty dollar bills.

Interviews on the local news with the people on the street were interesting. All of them said they were DUE the cash because they were poor. Unfortunately we have a large class of people in America who now believe they are entitled to a life of Riley. The scene at the end where the people nearly rioted to get to the rest of the loot left in the car when the cops took the robbers into custody is telling.

I think the Sate would be better off getting something of value from these folks instead of spending apx 60K a year so incarcerating them. Put them on work release and those with out jobs employ them at say 2K a month doing work that needs to be done such as picking up trash, cleaning up parks, cleaning up graffiti.

---

They are more likely to be surrounded by crime, drug and alcohol abuse and untreated mental illness.

Ah, circular logic. I think you can to better ES.

It's a circular problem. I thought that much was obvious. To solve it you have to figure out ways to break the cycle.

The Headstart Programwas created to try and tackle the causes early and help break the cycle of poverty. It has had some success. Unfortunately Romney has stated that he will cut this program.

I thought he was going to cut ALL programs.

True, but this thread of conversation began with a discussion of why there are more minorities in prison than whites. My point was that poverty is more of an indicator than race. It just so happens because of the history of the US you are more likely to be poor if you are black or Hispanic. I picked that particular program because it was one targeted at breaking the cycle through different support programs and education.

Remember, there are children in these welfare families. When you raise a child in poverty without the nicer things in life (for example two parents, in some cases because of the ridiculous incarceration rates both parents are in jail) they are more likely to continue down the path their parents took.

So being poor is a reliable predictor of criminal activity. A conclusion then would be to concentrate police resources looking at the poor as they would be more likely to catch criminals. Programs like stop and frisk. I'm sure you didn't mean this ES.

I stated the problem. If that is how you would solve it then there is a fundamental difference between you and I. BTW, what you describe is exactly what happens now anyway. The police call it profiling. Another name for it is "driving while black".

Or, did you mean that there is a poverty culture and it accepts crime, drug and alcohol abuse and incarceration as the norm.

Sadly this is the case. Children raised in this environment haven't been shown another way of living. If a teenager sees one adult working for 50 hours a week for minimum wage and another earning $1000s drug dealing, which career do you think they will aspire to? Imagine someone like our poster William Rothamel owned a small business and wanted to hire someone. Based on his posts I would suspect that if a Hispanic person and white person with the same qualifications and experience applied for the job, he would give it to the white person. Imagine that multiplied by 1000s of times.

I'm talking about race here as one factor because this started with the prison comment. I'd just like to point out that most welfare recipients are actually white. Being on welfare isn't the only way of being poor. People can work very hard and still be poor and need help from the government.

Schools are horribly underfunded in these areas (I somehow don't see Romney pledging to improve the funding of the public education system).

The social safety net you are so against is more complicated than you seem to think. If you cut it, what will happen to the children in these families? How are families meant to go to work for minimum wage and pay childcare costs? have you ever sat down and worked out the numbers? What will eventually happen to the crime rate when the funding of the HeadStart program is cut?

If you really want to know what causes these kids to drop out spend some time talking to a teacher from one of these areas and they will tell you about all the obstacles these kids face everyday. Things that would break your heart.

The one thing they all say is the utter lack of self discipline the students have and the total disrespect for authority, how a couple of bad actors spoil every student in the class and learning is impossible. That there is no method the teacher has to do anything about the bad actors. At least that is what my friends who teach in south central LA have to say, oh that and the political gamesmanship played by the Union and the Administration that prevents any solution to the problem of teaching the students who want to learn and rise out of the ghetto.

True. There is an anti-edcuation problem that has come out of a fear of the government. On one hand teachers are seen as part of the system that has put these people in the position they are in. Couple with the constant hammering and blaming of teachers by the media and politicians there is very little respect left for the job teachers do. You can't expect the kids to respect them if no one else does.

If you want to see an example of some some the worst things that children can go through, go watch the movie "Precious". Then ask your self how amazing would someone have to be to be able to overcome that start in life.

It happens. I've know kids it has happened to..and plenty of other things you wouldn't believe.

When the gang they join is a better family than Mom and Dad, I think we know the real issue.

It's not quite as simple as that. Very good parents can lose their kids to gangs, and if a child is raised by poor parents they are less likely to end up as good parents themselves. It's a complicated problem and most bleeding heart liberals recognise that.

The gang problem has many causes, the war on drugs being one of them. Take the profit out of being a drug dealer and you will find there are less drug dealers preying on the young and the vulnerable.

---

Reality Internet Personality

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/los_angeles&id=8808005

Residents were seen running out to pick up the cash, even running into the street in front of police vehicles.

For a couple of twenty dollar bills ...
Obstruction of Justice, Destruction of Evidence ... each $1000 fine and a year.

Some people make good life choices.

Followup: Local news suggested the charge would be receipt of stolen property, felony, three years. Again for a couple of twenty dollar bills.

Interviews on the local news with the people on the street were interesting. All of them said they were DUE the cash because they were poor. Unfortunately we have a large class of people in America who now believe they are entitled to a life of Riley. The scene at the end where the people nearly rioted to get to the rest of the loot left in the car when the cops took the robbers into custody is telling.

---

For some reason it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that you are anti-education. You demonstrate it so well every time you hit the "post reply" button.

The Zeitgeist Movement and The Venus Project are Full On for Education and Critical Thinking. It is The Only Way to Defeat the Market/Monetary System.



However, The Libber Way will not Get U.S. There. The Libber Way keeps people Uneducated and Living In The Perpetual Liberal Economic Plantation. Irregardless of The Pronouncements shouted out the megaphone in Chicago nowadays.

So, I'll continue to demonstrate my deficiencies in Education by continuing to post to prove.

TheSunWillEducateTheEarthSoonRealSoonFourthAngel

---

Interesting. So it seems school is the issue. But WHY do so many drop out of free available high school education? What allows or forces a child to drop out?

A child growing up in poverty is growing up without good nutrition, a substandard school (not all public schools are equal).

True. But they are much more equal than they used to be as funding for the school has been transferred from local governments to state and national governments.

They are more likely to be surrounded by crime, drug and alcohol abuse and untreated mental illness.

Ah, circular logic. I think you can to better ES.

The Headstart Programwas created to try and tackle the causes early and help break the cycle of poverty. It has had some success. Unfortunately Romney has stated that he will cut this program.

I thought he was going to cut ALL programs.

Remember, there are children in these welfare families. When you raise a child in poverty without the nicer things in life (for example two parents, in some cases because of the ridiculous incarceration rates both parents are in jail) they are more likely to continue down the path their parents took.

So being poor is a reliable predictor of criminal activity. A conclusion then would be to concentrate police resources looking at the poor as they would be more likely to catch criminals. Programs like stop and frisk. I'm sure you didn't mean this ES.

Or, did you mean that there is a poverty culture and it accepts crime, drug and alcohol abuse and incarceration as the norm.

Schools are horribly underfunded in these areas (I somehow don't see Romney pledging to improve the funding of the public education system).

The social safety net you are so against is more complicated than you seem to think. If you cut it, what will happen to the children in these families? How are families meant to go to work for minimum wage and pay childcare costs? have you ever sat down and worked out the numbers? What will eventually happen to the crime rate when the funding of the HeadStart program is cut?

If you really want to know what causes these kids to drop out spend some time talking to a teacher from one of these areas and they will tell you about all the obstacles these kids face everyday. Things that would break your heart.

The one thing they all say is the utter lack of self discipline the students have and the total disrespect for authority, how a couple of bad actors spoil every student in the class and learning is impossible. That there is no method the teacher has to do anything about the bad actors. At least that is what my friends who teach in south central LA have to say, oh that and the political gamesmanship played by the Union and the Administration that prevents any solution to the problem of teaching the students who want to learn and rise out of the ghetto.

If you want to see an example of some some the worst things that children can go through, go watch the movie "Precious". Then ask your self how amazing would someone have to be to be able to overcome that start in life.

It happens. I've know kids it has happened to..and plenty of other things you wouldn't believe.

When the gang they join is a better family than Mom and Dad, I think we know the real issue.

---

No. We have too many conflicting rules as it is. We have more rules than any one person can remember. We have more rules than any one person can understand. We need less rules. We need simple rules. We need to keep the rules simple so everybody can understand them.

If you don't have three things with rules:

1) UNIVERSALLY KNOWN
2) CONSISTANTLY APPLIED
3) NON-SELECTIVELY ENFORCED

all you do in piss everybody off.

With love, sincerely,

Guy the Great!

Well done Guy. for once you have posted something that didn't make me splutter my coffee all over my keyboard and monitor. I agree with you totally on this (although I suspect we would still differ on the actual rules to be applied) ;-)

T.A.

Obama has a rare historic chance to heal america from warfare pollutions and its economic consequence recessions.

It is clear that before iraq attack of 2002 whole international state was very stable meaning general economic dynamic balances. Then false WMD of iraq thing triggered whole downhill of the west. And today whole western hemisphere is officially in historic trap recession thing.

So Obama has kind of closer fate as Clinton who unlocked post cold war social economic trap of america and straightened out things.

---

Mandtugai!

Here's two ideas/counterpoints.

1. "Obama has failed.": How? Our economy has been improving (albeit slowly). Just cause the stock market doesn't always smile, doesn't mean that job growth is not happening. If you disagree please site examples of how the economy is worse now than it was under W.
Debt? well, Obama had a huge mess to clean up. Everyone forgets BushII upped the debt almost as much as Obama has, and he didn't bail out some of the biggest Corps in the country...

2. "Democrats will take your freedoms": I still have yet to see any of the republicans site examples of freedoms the Dems have done away with. I do not have any less freedoms in my life since Obama took over. And speaking of taking away freedoms, it's the neo-conservative movement that's trying to undo Roe V Wade. Now there's a freedom that's been there for awhile, and is under attack, by the right, not the "left". (I put "left" in quotes because our current Democrat president is very conservative in the bigger picture.)

---

#resist

Romney has stated that he will cut...

I somehow don't see Romney pledging to improve the funding...

I Like this Future you are seeing. Oh Yeah. Sweet.

I dig The Zeitgeist Movement and The Venus Project. I don't see how Humanity can get to The New World with Communist/Socialist/DEMLibs in charge. They Muck Up Everything.

Money Men need to Stay In Charge until The Revolution takes hold. Won't happen with The Libber Way. Too much Altruistic/Egalitarian Sentiment. A Sure Fire System of Total Fail.

TotalFailureOfEarthAsSunBurnsAndBoilsItAwayFourthAngel

For some reason it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that you are anti-education. You demonstrate it so well every time you hit the "post reply" button.

---

Reality Internet Personality