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James Sotherden Send message Joined: 16 May 99 Posts: 10436 Credit: 110,373,059 RAC: 54 |
As I think I started this choice stuff, I wish I handnt of. But that was my choice. Now you all are stuck with it:) [/quote] Old James |
OzzFan Send message Joined: 9 Apr 02 Posts: 15691 Credit: 84,761,841 RAC: 28 |
On the software side of the house we got our first lesson with Y2K. Yes, I'm well aware of what the Y2K issue was. However, I think the Y2K36 issue could be worse. ;-) I have my cynical suspicions when products are named very prominently with a year or date as part of the product name... So they are no good for the next year? Agreed. And my former company decided they wished to stay with Office 2000. And when you get emailed a ".docx" to your trusty old Win95 + Office95 ".doc"-only system and your customer can't understand why you don't know what they want?... Agreed again. You can request any partners you work with to save in older formats if they wish to work with you. The power of Marketing should not be underestimated! I know this doesn't help my forum reputation as trying to be as objective as I can while denying re rejecting any accusations of being an MS Fanboi, but I have to disagree with you on Windows ME. Yes, it was garbage, but as I'm trying to point out, no one was forced to upgrade to it. If you bought a new computer with it pre-installed, you had the choice to buy Windows 98SE and install it on there or have someone do it for you. To blame marketing forced you to do anything against your own will is such a weak position that I cannot support. Marketing's job is to market products to make people want to buy them, and the rules for marketing are different for most countries. However, no one is forced to buy an upgrade because of a marketing claim. It's your choice to buy into the marketing or your choice to keep what you have. No, always. I'm starting to get amazed at the number of people on these forums who doesn't understand the choices they have and the choices they make every day. I'm beginning to think that by my pointing out the choices we have, it is upsetting the status quo because most everyone has rationalized themselves into believing that they had no choice when it comes to certain decisions, which is of course untrue, but few people like to be confronted with the alternative options that they easily or off-handedly dismissed. I still remember the time when my College IT Manager decided arbitrarily to upgrade from Office 2003 to Office 2007, on the basis that he had some spare cash and we ought to keep pace with the latest software developments for our students didn't we. So there was a choice made to spend money available without researching the upgrade first. This initial choice required you to: What he hadn't appreciated was that the 2007 version introduced the ribbon menus in place of the drop down menus. That meant that all of our handouts, technical notes, homework assignments, mock exams etc had to be rewritten including new screen dumps for the diagrams. This is merely an example of not having the foresight to see what each choice can mean to the future. We've all made that mistake, myself included, but there was still a choice to be made somewhere, and that choice had a cascading effect on other choices. I mean, you could have easily removed Office 2007 and reverted back to Office 2003 instead of re-writing all of your existing forms and macros. If that decision wasn't within your job responsibilities or function, you could have chosen to leave the company and work elsewhere. There are always choices. [Edited to fix quotes] |
OzzFan Send message Joined: 9 Apr 02 Posts: 15691 Credit: 84,761,841 RAC: 28 |
You can choose to take it to a third party, or hire outsourced IT to assist you. No one forces you to make one of the decisions though, and that's my point. Yes, even not making a choice is technically choosing to not make a choice. But no one can force you into making any particular choice. So yes, we rationalize our choices by saying, "I want to have the latest stuff" and we know along with that comes spending money. You're not forced to spend the money. You made that choice. Even choosing to respond, no one forced me to make a post or to not make a post responding to you. There was absolutely no force involved. |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24912 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
Ain't technology grand? Cardless ATM's Bank suspends "Getcash" app Natwest refused to explain how thieves were able to access one customers account who did not sign up for mobile banking. Probably too afraid to admit that their security sucks! |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 31012 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Good question to ask the FAA on their vacuum tube ATC computers and Radar. Oh wait. They were forced to upgrade. Seems they ran out of people able to make new spare parts. If it no longer exists and someone has to engineer it out of something that does, I think you can call that an upgrade. I think everyone does tend to agree that a transistor is an upgrade for a vacuum tube, but I could be wrong. On the software side of the house we got our first lesson with Y2K. Who had the choice to repair or replace ... end user? Oh, you answered that below when you say you wouldn't suggest they patch it. However I suppose you are going to say the user could have patched it himself. If you view suicide as a choice ... |
OzzFan Send message Joined: 9 Apr 02 Posts: 15691 Credit: 84,761,841 RAC: 28 |
If it no longer exists and someone has to engineer it out of something that does, I think you can call that an upgrade. I think everyone does tend to agree that a transistor is an upgrade for a vacuum tube, but I could be wrong. But you're not forced to buy the upgrade. You can choose to leave it broken or choose to find an alternative solution. On the software side of the house we got our first lesson with Y2K. An end-user doesn't have to be Y2K compliant. I know an older gentleman in my neighborhood who is still using a non-Y2K complaint installation of Windows 95, and it works well for him. No one has forced him to upgrade. However I suppose you are going to say the user could have patched it himself. Yes, I do view suicide as a choice that one makes. Including the suicide of one's data or career or business. If one doesn't make the best choices, one will effectively commit suicide. Are you suggesting that professional suicide isn't a choice, even one no one wants to make? |
Horacio Send message Joined: 14 Jan 00 Posts: 536 Credit: 75,967,266 RAC: 0 |
I think that this whole thing about having or not options and whatnot has gone too far and has nothing to do with this thread... So, if there is people still interested in this topic then it would be better to start another thread... (Just an opinion, not judgement intended) |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 31012 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Yes, I do view suicide as a choice that one makes. Including the suicide of one's data or career or business. If one doesn't make the best choices, one will effectively commit suicide. Are you suggesting that professional suicide isn't a choice, even one no one wants to make? I'm suggesting that suicide being a choice is a different world view than a fair fraction of people hold. Similar in nature for a profitable business to file an asset sale bankruptcy. An irrational choice. irrational: 1) Not consistent with or using reason Is it a choice if it isn't reasoned? Is it better than a random pick? Is a random pick a choice? Has the element of choice been surrendered to something else in a random choice? (Watch out before this gets mixed in with the evolution thread) In any case I think we agree to disagree. |
OzzFan Send message Joined: 9 Apr 02 Posts: 15691 Credit: 84,761,841 RAC: 28 |
Yes, I do view suicide as a choice that one makes. Including the suicide of one's data or career or business. If one doesn't make the best choices, one will effectively commit suicide. Are you suggesting that professional suicide isn't a choice, even one no one wants to make? I have stated that some decisions are considered less practical than others, including ones many would deem irrational. Regardless if you believe those choices to be irrational or "random", doesn't make them any less of a choice than anything else we do in our lives. Study up on psychology and you'll quickly let go of your simple misunderstandings between rational and irrational choices or decisions. This is the very reason why when someone does something very terrible, you always hear things like, "I can't understand what was going through their mind" - and you never will so long as you don't accept the full scope of choices to be made. Yes, Gary, reasoned, rational decisions are far better than impractical or irrational decisions, and are often the sign of a healthy mind. But the main focal point I've been trying to drive home is that none of the choices are made through force. It is, of course, your choice to disagree with me. No one is forcing you to agree with me. ;-) |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24912 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
I think that this whole thing about having or not options and whatnot has gone too far and has nothing to do with this thread... Agree. Over 25% of the posts so far have been to do with choices. I think we get the message, so time to move on. |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21231 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
I have my cynical suspicions when products are named very prominently with a year or date as part of the product name... So they are no good for the next year? ... And for 'image conscious' users, naming products with a 'sell-by date' as part of the product name is rather a cynical ploy to keep the date of product name in mind rather than the functionality. That can become a problem when a monopoly has been perpetrated. And when you get emailed a ".docx" to your trusty old Win95 + Office95 ".doc"-only system and your customer can't understand why you don't know what they want?... Backed up by deliberate manipulation (breakage, incompatibilities) of document/data formats to bug the hell out of everyone and waste time for anyone who has not 'upgraded' (at a cost) to the same versions... Strange that the 'defaults' don't work for older installations by default?... Backed up by 6-monthly or yearly 'upgrades' that again change the 'defaults' and file formats... Just for the sake of Marketing?... There are indeed choices. There are also costs. When is it that Marketing moves over the margin to become 'unfair' and coercive/bullying? When any monopoly is achieved, is that when Marketing becomes a dictatorship?... All in the name of business?... IT is what we make it... Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
OzzFan Send message Joined: 9 Apr 02 Posts: 15691 Credit: 84,761,841 RAC: 28 |
I have my cynical suspicions when products are named very prominently with a year or date as part of the product name... So they are no good for the next year? It's the user's choice to be 'image conscious'. Marketing is going to try to take advantage of whatever it is the buyer's 'image' is. You learn the three or four basic forms of marketing when you take an intro to business class. I find it highly interesting that you wish to blame marketing for people's decisions, as if advertisements make people do things they didn't want to do. Do you really believe people are that gullible or naive? And when you get emailed a ".docx" to your trusty old Win95 + Office95 ".doc"-only system and your customer can't understand why you don't know what they want?... Your own cynicism aside about certain companies (again, interesting that you always turn any technology discussion into something anti-Microsoft, though you throw Apple in there for good measure these days), I've seen little real world evidence to support your claim here. I know of several companies that are still using Office 2003 and using the older ".doc" or ".xls" formats without issue. Strange that the 'defaults' don't work for older installations by default?... Backed up by 6-monthly or yearly 'upgrades' that again change the 'defaults' and file formats... Just for the sake of Marketing?... So a company that tries to get people to use a newer format, and thus makes the newer format the 'default' is somehow a marketing ploy? The extent of your cynicism knows no bounds. There are indeed choices. There are also costs. When is it that Marketing moves over the margin to become 'unfair' and coercive/bullying? So the discussion has moved from Computers & Technology to "choices" to anti-marketing/anti-MS/Apple. You have some serious hang-ups about companies trying to make money, and you seem to have little respect for an individual's ability to discern marketing from fact. Most every citizens who has grown up in a capitalistic society knows that marketing holds very few facts, and most consumers tend to either educate themselves or go to people they trust. When any monopoly is achieved, is that when Marketing becomes a dictatorship?... I don't know, let's ask the government. They're the only ones that have the ability to create or own a monopoly. In the meantime, marketing will continue to do what marketing needs to do to create revenue to appease the shareholders. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 31012 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Do you really believe people are that gullible or naive? "There's a sucker born every minute." |
OzzFan Send message Joined: 9 Apr 02 Posts: 15691 Credit: 84,761,841 RAC: 28 |
Do you really believe people are that gullible or naive? Only if they choose to be. |
James Sotherden Send message Joined: 16 May 99 Posts: 10436 Credit: 110,373,059 RAC: 54 |
I agree with the OP its time to move on, If anyone wants to start a new thread to continue pleaee do so. [/quote] Old James |
OzzFan Send message Joined: 9 Apr 02 Posts: 15691 Credit: 84,761,841 RAC: 28 |
So discussing whether people have a choice to upgrade or not is not on topic? I admit that the choice discussion started going a bit off the rails, but I think it was still on topic. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 31012 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Do you really believe people are that gullible or naive? What a WASP world view. I suppose they chose their parents and to be raised in a place where teachers lives are threatened and where schools are bombed so they never learn that there is a choice to be made. I get you live in a perfect little box. Glad it works for you. OP is right this has gone far afield. |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24912 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
Before we move on, I'll clarify a point raised about "new" formats. I'm currently using Office 2013 which is set to .doc/.xls so that any customer/colleague/family can open the file using their version of Office & Open/Libre Office. Also using Office 2007 & 2010 with the same setup. Agree that it is my choice, but I'm catering for others which is what any IT Guru should be doing REGARDLESS of what version of applications or operating systems being used. Can we now move on please? |
OzzFan Send message Joined: 9 Apr 02 Posts: 15691 Credit: 84,761,841 RAC: 28 |
Do you really believe people are that gullible or naive? Nice to see that once someone is frustrated, they resort to ad absurdum arguments because they refuse to open their world view. No, of course no one gets to choose their parents, nor do they get to choose where they are raised. I never made any of these claims either; strawman? I don't live in a perfect box, but I do live in a world where there are lots of choices to be made, and the majority of them are not made through force. OP is right this has gone far afield. Then why do you persist in taking it farther afield? You're the one that brought up suicide as not being a choice. |
OzzFan Send message Joined: 9 Apr 02 Posts: 15691 Credit: 84,761,841 RAC: 28 |
Before we move on, I'll clarify a point raised about "new" formats. I'm currently using Office 2013 which is set to .doc/.xls so that any customer/colleague/family can open the file using their version of Office & Open/Libre Office. Perfectly reasonable choice to make. Most businesses operate with the same mindset. Can we now move on please? Glad to. Perhaps after people stop trying to attack me personally (e.g. accusing me of living in a 'perfect box') because I carry a different view that they refuse to understand or accept. Do I not have a right to defend my views? |
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