ID, your faith is consistent, data is lacking to verify your claims. I remain agnostic! I also require somewhat cogent arguments.

Then I'm sure talking to yourself is very reassuring.

Unmoved Mover.

Exactly : NATURE driven by randomness, mutation and advantage in survival situations and mating.

Is the unmoved mover responsible for the fact that average heights of males and females has grown 2 inches in 50 years, What about new breeds of dogs such as Labradoodles; perhaps it was selective breeding for desired traits.

Yes. Just because the Unmoved Mover gave us freewill does not mean the Designer does not know what we will do.

Labradoodles, cows, pigs, if it lives with us there is no more randomness and they might not even get the 'so called' benefit of having sex.

I'm 5'5", yet still found a mate, she is 5'2". LOL

As I have said before, make a verse from nothing that has come from this verse. In other words we just manipulate what has already been given to us.

Unmoved Mover.

Exactly : NATURE driven by randomness, mutation and advantage in survival situations and mating.

Is the unmoved mover responsible for the fact that average heights of males and females has grown 2 inches in 50 years, What about new breeds of dogs such as Labradoodles; perhaps it was selective breeding for desired traits.

ID, your faith is consistent, data is lacking to verify your claims. I remain agnostic! I also require somewhat cogent arguments.

---

Just finished it. I liked it right up to the end where he said that life needed no Designer with one hand, then with the other hand said life is a set of simple rules. As I have said, order and chaos live side by side. Who made the simple rules and set the machine into motion? Yes, machine, Designed.


Yes, Mandelbrot Set, fractal geometry, butterfly effect, were all very informative and I wont deny that they are true. But I deny that have no Design. I deny that put together they show no Design.

I thought to myself when I seen the part of the computer program that learned to walk by evolution, who made who? The computer design that was started by Alan Mathison Turing, the very man who was the start of the program itself, a man. This thought can only lead me into the logic of, in the end; an Unmoved Mover.

It is coming on again at 5:00 AM. I have set my recorder to catch it.

Steve

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Warning, addicted to SETI crunching!
Crunching as a member of GPU Users Group.
GPUUG Website

I just watched a program on the Science channel titled "The Secret Life of Chaos". It totally blows "Intelligent Design" out of the water. I don't have the gift of writing to explain why but all I can say is just watch it.

I DVR'ed it. Comment tomorrow on it--sometime or another.

You should have already watched it. I have gave you a link to it a few weeks ago, in message 1267357. Still waiting for your comments.

Then I take it WinterKnight that you agree with my assessment of the presentation. I loved the segment on the Mandelbrot Set and fractal geometry.

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Bob DeWoody

My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events.

I just watched a program on the Science channel titled "The Secret Life of Chaos". It totally blows "Intelligent Design" out of the water. I don't have the gift of writing to explain why but all I can say is just watch it.

I DVR'ed it. Comment tomorrow on it--sometime or another.

You should have already watched it. I have gave you a link to it a few weeks ago, in message 1267357. Still waiting for your comments.

lol, right. I have on the average about 20 minutes here at this site.

Practice with my music is much more important then you folks here. I have grown fond of a few of you. You're not one of them.

You will wait...

I can wait, just you remember to watch it and give us your thoughts.
I'm sure the others will also wait and see what you have to say.

I just watched a program on the Science channel titled "The Secret Life of Chaos". It totally blows "Intelligent Design" out of the water. I don't have the gift of writing to explain why but all I can say is just watch it.

I DVR'ed it. Comment tomorrow on it--sometime or another.

You should have already watched it. I have gave you a link to it a few weeks ago, in message 1267357. Still waiting for your comments.

lol, right. I have on the average about 20 minutes here at this site.

Practice with my music is much more important then you folks here. I have grown fond of a few of you. You're not one of them.

You will wait...

I just watched a program on the Science channel titled "The Secret Life of Chaos". It totally blows "Intelligent Design" out of the water. I don't have the gift of writing to explain why but all I can say is just watch it.

I DVR'ed it. Comment tomorrow on it--sometime or another.

You should have already watched it. I have gave you a link to it a few weeks ago, in message 1267357. Still waiting for your comments.

I just watched a program on the Science channel titled "The Secret Life of Chaos". It totally blows "Intelligent Design" out of the water. I don't have the gift of writing to explain why but all I can say is just watch it.

I DVR'ed it. Comment tomorrow on it--sometime or another.

I was talking about all of his work, not just in one specific book. An idea, like everything else in nature, must evolve and grow even beyond the initial stages of conception or it will die.

But you should have known that already, shouldn't you?

Not if it was correct the first time around. [LOL]

I just watched a program on the Science channel titled "The Secret Life of Chaos". It totally blows "Intelligent Design" out of the water. I don't have the gift of writing to explain why but all I can say is just watch it.

---

Bob DeWoody

My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events.

So like the bible, you read into Darwins every thought by just examining his most "popular" writing. He did write other things and as I recall had numerous correspondences that give light to the man.

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

I was talking about all of his work, not just in one specific book. An idea, like everything else in nature, must evolve and grow even beyond the initial stages of conception or it will die.

But you should have known that already, shouldn't you?

I don't recall the argument of eminence over women in his book...

I don't see anything wrong with his work. I think of the "bastardization" as being done by Neo-Darwinist.

...but you already knew that---didn't you.

Darwin simply gave birth to an idea. Ideas get studied over time to verify their veracity, and they change as new evidence is found. He also thought men's eminence over women was the outcome of sexual selection, for which we know he was wrong.

To suggest that we must keep his idea in line with his philosophical views lest we "bastardize" his work is complete rubbish. Even Einstein had many wrong ideas that we know are not true today, but we don't consider changing the idea to fit what we've observed as a bastardization of his original work.

A bastardizing of Darwin's work. He was not looking for Design without designer. As a matter for fact he gave credit where it was due as far as Design goes. And yes, his work lays out the fact that Evolutionary processes take alot of time, but, he did not rule out a Designer and lay the ground work for Secular Humanism. Deist with a touch of agnostic? Perhaps, in his later years. But it is a bastardizing of Darwin's work.

I'll ask you to do the same

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_J._Ayala

Note that the "scientist" is also a former Catholic Priest.

Of note the author also believes that there is no true evil, that events are as God laid out not a plot of evil doing by the devil.

BTW why did it take 5 years for someone from the crackpot society website to find this article? Could it be that they have to scour long and hard to find something to squack about.

Perhaps even reading the abstract to the quoted text might give light to what is being dubbed creationism in science. But where would I find that abstract?

ON THE WEB of course.

Darwin's greatest discovery: Design without designer
Francisco J. Ayala *
+ Author Affiliations

Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology, University of California, 321 Steinhaus Hall, Irvine, CA 92697
Abstract
Darwin's greatest contribution to science is that he completed the Copernican Revolution by drawing out for biology the notion of nature as a system of matter in motion governed by natural laws. With Darwin's discovery of natural selection, the origin and adaptations of organisms were brought into the realm of science. The adaptive features of organisms could now be explained, like the phenomena of the inanimate world, as the result of natural processes, without recourse to an Intelligent Designer. The Copernican and the Darwinian Revolutions may be seen as the two stages of the one Scientific Revolution. They jointly ushered in the beginning of science in the modern sense of the word: explanation through natural laws. Darwin's theory of natural selection accounts for the “design” of organisms, and for their wondrous diversity, as the result of natural processes, the gradual accumulation of spontaneously arisen variations (mutations) sorted out by natural selection. Which characteristics will be selected depends on which variations happen to be present at a given time in a given place. This in turn depends on the random process of mutation as well as on the previous history of the organisms. Mutation and selection have jointly driven the marvelous process that, starting from microscopic organisms, has yielded orchids, birds, and humans. The theory of evolution conveys chance and necessity, randomness and determinism, jointly enmeshed in the stuff of life. This was Darwin's fundamental discovery, that there is a process that is creative, although not conscious.

bold type my emphasis

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

an actual paper about actual science that doesnt nitpick results and claim a victory. Sadly the article clearly is being picked apart for the needs of this farcical website. Had the scientists intent been to prove "design" also known as creationism they might have mentioned it themselves.

Just because a scientist is baffled, amused, or just straight up mystified by a topic doesnt make a story for creationism. It does make for an intriguing story of discovery

It is a actual paper, written by real scientist at a factual web-site, that has seperated "Creationism" which is a seven day event and entered "Design."

Please, try to keep up.