The four living creatures are thought by some to mean the four gospels .....

Or?

The Four Faces of Jesus

Or just four faces?

LORD MARSHAL "OBERON"



Keep searchin',
Martin

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The four living creatures are thought by some to mean the four gospels .....

Chris,
Yea, some people do say that, its hard to know.

I don't remember if i ever payed attention to the Book of Ezekiel when i was a young child in school, or going to Mass. So its been 30 years since i heard any of the Bible stories. When your a kid, it goes in one ear and out the other, it means nothing to you. So its only about 2 years ago that heard Erich von Däniken suggest that Ezekiel was describing seeing a UFO landing in front of him. That was when i started reading the Bible again, to check if Ezekiel really was describing a UFO, or some flying craft. The Bible reads very differently if your an adult, and you read it with ancient alien theory in mind.

Was Ezekiel describing a UFO? I keep an open mind.
Are UFO's or modern military aircraft discussed in the Book of Revelation? I also keep an open mind to all theories!

I leave in 2 days time to travel to the middle east to get the next part of "The old book" i'm researching. Its just a short trip, for about 3 days to get what i need. I stop at nothing to get answers!

John.

The four living creatures are thought by some to mean the four gospels .....

There is a common link between Ezekiel and Revelation!

Ezekiel describes the "4 living creatures" like this;
Ezekiel 1:10;
"Each of the four had the face of a human being, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle."

Then in Revelation 4:7 we also have 4 similar living creatures;
"The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle."

Now hang here one second!! Its the same description in both books! Ezekiel and John of Patmos in Revelation must be describing the same thing! Or they are describing something very similar! They both describe the 4 living creatures as having faces like a Lion, an Ox, a Man and an Eagle.

In some metaphorical way, they are both talking about the same thing! But the book of Revelation does not mention any "wheels within wheels".

John.

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Weeell, we have the same sort of stuff in Ezekiel s Vision.

Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces. The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl [bright gold/yellow]: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel. When they went, they went upon their four sides: and they turned not when they went. As for their rings [rims], they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four. And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up. Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.

That sounds like to me a contemporary description of firstly a Snowcat, and secondly an aircraft retracting its undercarriage after take off. But you can read all sorts of things into it.

Ezekiel

Which has info about Revelations in it. A lot of people think that Revelations were coded attacks upon the Roman Empire, but it can never be proved.

It's getting a bit like the quantrains of Nostradamus ....

Thats not a bad point. I also wonder how much of the metphors were put in because the translator had no word what was being described.

Take the Navajo code talkers. They had no words for a lot of what the military wanted to code. So they had to come closest to what they knew in nature.

As a short example. The giant bird hung in the sky motionless. Thunder and lightning belching forth from its beak.

I just described how an Apache helicopter shooting its nose gun might have been seen.

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Old James

It's getting a bit like the quantrains of Nostradamus ....

It is indeed a detailed description but of what ?

Your metaphor was easily recognisable as a pyramid but just how do you interpret

7 heads
10 horns
each head a blasphemous name
resembled a leopard
feet like those of a bear
mouth like that of a lion
heads of the beast have a fatal wound, but its healed
Has something to do with the number 666
And the dragon had given authority to the beast

Please keep me posted on this. I'm interested but may ask some dumb questions. You can PM me if you like

T.A.

How about the nation of China being the dragon, And its one of their navy subs?

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Old James

Ok, lets try the nuclear sub-marine theory for the Beast in revelation 13;

This is the description;

The Beast out of the Sea
7 heads
10 horns
each head a blasphemous name
resembled a leopard
feet like those of a bear
mouth like that of a lion
heads of the beast have a fatal wound, but its healed
Has something to do with the number 666
And the dragon had given authority to the beast

Firstly, the Beast in revelation 13 is described as "The Beast out of the Sea". This fits a sub-marine perfectly!

The 7 heads could be nuclear warheads on the sub-marine.

The 10 horns could be missiles on the sub.

As many people know, solders and marines have a habit of writing names on bombs they are going to drop. When the Enola Gay bombed Hiroshima in WW II, they named the bomb "Little boy". So the blasphemous names in revelation could be a reference to this practice of writing names on bombs. This still goes on right now today!

Maybe there is, or was, or is going to be a sub marine that "resembles a leopard"

Maybe the bears feet could be some stability fins on the sub-marine.

Mouth like a lion could be the launch tubes for the nukes.

The healed fatal wound could be some damage the sub-marine received and they "welded" the damaged steel to "Heal the wound".

This particular sub-marine would probably have the number 666 on the side of the sub. It might be its naval registration number.

And the Dragon might be the government of the country that controls the sub-marine and the king, prime minister or president would have to "give authority to the beast" to launch its deadly load of nuclear weapons.

USS Hawkbill (SSN-666);
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Hawkbill_(SSN-666)



John.

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It is indeed a detailed description but of what ?

Your metaphor was easily recognisable as a pyramid but just how do you interpret

7 heads
10 horns
each head a blasphemous name
resembled a leopard
feet like those of a bear
mouth like that of a lion
heads of the beast have a fatal wound, but its healed
Has something to do with the number 666
And the dragon had given authority to the beast

Please keep me posted on this. I'm interested but may ask some dumb questions. You can PM me if you like

T.A.

Yea, you see now we are getting to the real nitty gritty detail, and this is important! The description is incredibly detailed! Massively detailed. And if you read revelation, there is even more detail about that particular beast.

Well for starters, i think its really unlikely that its an actual living creature. The 7 heads would cause problems as we see with Siamese twins. So its unlikely its a real animal.

Many people suggest that particular beast in revelation 13 is "The catholic church" with the Pope as the head of the church and with their head quarters in the Vatican. The Vatican is an independent "state" inside the city of Rome. But the Vatican controls all its own finance and governing power. Its possible that the Vatican is the Beast. But i don't think so myself. I think its something else.

It could be describing a nuclear sub-marine!

John.

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It is indeed a detailed description but of what ?

Your metaphor was easily recognisable as a pyramid but just how do you interpret

7 heads
10 horns
each head a blasphemous name
resembled a leopard
feet like those of a bear
mouth like that of a lion
heads of the beast have a fatal wound, but its healed
Has something to do with the number 666
And the dragon had given authority to the beast

Please keep me posted on this. I'm interested but may ask some dumb questions. You can PM me if you like

T.A.

I think you spoiled it :-) Your first one was a classic example of the difficulties involved in accurately deciphering the meaning of a two thousand year old metaphor, that was probably written to be somewhat obscure in its meaning to begin with.

Your second one is way too detailed. I've read Revelations a few times and none of the metaphors in it are that explicit (to my eyes anyway).

T.A.

TA,
You got to be kidding me!

The Beast in Revelation 13 has;
7 heads
10 horns
each head a blasphemous name
resembled a leopard
feet like those of a bear
mouth like that of a lion
heads of the beast have a fatal wound, but its healed
Has something to do with the number 666
And the dragon had given authority to the beast

Now in my opinion, that is a very very detailed description! Just like my Giza pyramids metaphor, i think that is describing something very precise! And nobody is going to decode it until we find something that EXACTLY fits that description, even if it is a metaphor!

And to top that off, thats just the description of one of the beasts in revelation. All the other characters are described just like that one. They are all described in massive detail!

If we are living in the so called "End times", before the Gods return, someone should be able find someone or something, or some set of events that ACCURATELY fit the descriptions of the characters in the book. If we can't find that, then we have not yet entered the End times. It will happen at a future date, if the book is correct. Its possible it's going to happen a thousand years from now.

John.

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How about this;
"In the end times, before the return of the Gods, the great triangle sandstone beast will crumble. The skin of the Beast will crumble like cake, and creatures (Archaeologists) will enter the belly of the beast and plunder the guts of the beast. And four great arrows of light will penetrate the beast's heart(The Light shafts). Two beams of light will penetrate the heart of the king, and two beams of light will penetrate the heart of the queen(King's and Queen's chamber). And light will even penetrate the bowels of the Beast!(Lower chamber)."

<graphic snipped>

Now in that metaphor, the description is well coded and nobody is ever going to guess what the beast is! Not until someone eventually breaks into the pyramids and finds that they have a kings and queens chamber, with 4 light shafts, and a lower chamber way down in the bowels of the pyramid. But As soon as some Archaeologist does break in, he will find that the metaphor is a 100% perfect description of the Giza pyramids!

I think the Biblical Book of Revelation is written exactly the same way.

Your welcome to post a message in the SETI cafe about this topic if you like. I don't have the time.

John.

I think you spoiled it :-) Your first one was a classic example of the difficulties involved in accurately deciphering the meaning of a two thousand year old metaphor, that was probably written to be somewhat obscure in its meaning to begin with.

Your second one is way too detailed. I've read Revelations a few times and none of the metaphors in it are that explicit (to my eyes anyway).

T.A.

.....Metaphor for the Giza Pyramids;
"In the end times, before the return of the Gods, the great sandstone beast will crumble. The skin of the Beast will crumble like cake, and creatures (Archaeologists) will enter the belly of the beast and plunder the guts of the beast"

Now thats an example of me describing archaeologists entering the crumbling Giza pyramids and removing the treasures from inside the pyramids......

And therein lies the problem. Non specific metaphors are open to "interpretation". Particularly when the colloquial history used in their creation has been lost.

Without too much thinking, I was able to apply your Giza metaphor to 4 different events ranging from the fall of Babylon to the World Trade Center to the final Wall St. crash.

If you also use "sandstone" as a metaphor for something or someone strong, powerful and seemingly impregnable it takes the number of interpretations of your simple metaphor into the hundreds. The words "beast" and "creature" can also be used with a positive or negative connotation to increase the number again.

As an exercise perhaps you should post it in the Cafe and ask the crowd to contribute.

You have picked yourself a task John, I have a feeling that it's going to keep you out of mischief for quite a while. Best of luck

T.A.

P.S. The more I think about, the more interesting the idea of posting your Giza metaphor in the Cafe sounds. Please seriously consider doing so. It could be a lot of fun.

Terror Australis,
Yea, the Giza pyramids metaphor is a good example of something that you can be 100% sure that someone will eventually cut into the pyramid to see what is inside it. You can't hide the pyramids, they are hugh! And knowing that people by their very nature are curious, you know someone will eventually cut into them to have a look. Remember they were sealed with no apparent entrance for thousands of years! Thats exactly what happened. Curious Archaeologists eventually did break in!

Now i could have given more thought to my "Poetic metaphor" to describe this event. I could "code" my metaphor so only particular people would understand the metaphor.

How about this;
"In the end times, before the return of the Gods, the great triangle sandstone beast will crumble. The skin of the Beast will crumble like cake, and creatures (Archaeologists) will enter the belly of the beast and plunder the guts of the beast. And four great arrows of light will penetrate the beast's heart(The Light shafts). Two beams of light will penetrate the heart of the king, and two beams of light will penetrate the heart of the queen(King's and Queen's chamber). And light will even penetrate the bowels of the Beast!(Lower chamber). And the whole world will know the time has come for the return of the Gods!"

Giza pyramids;


Now in that metaphor, the description is well coded and nobody is ever going to guess what the beast is! Not until someone eventually breaks into the pyramids and finds that they have a kings and queens chamber, with 4 light shafts, and a lower chamber way down in the bowels of the pyramid. But As soon as some Archaeologist does break in, he will find that the metaphor is a 100% perfect description of the Giza pyramids!

I think the Biblical Book of Revelation is written exactly the same way.

Your welcome to post a message in the SETI cafe about this topic if you like. I don't have the time.

John.

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Er ...... Isn't the answer 42?

.....Metaphor for the Giza Pyramids;
"In the end times, before the return of the Gods, the great sandstone beast will crumble. The skin of the Beast will crumble like cake, and creatures (Archaeologists) will enter the belly of the beast and plunder the guts of the beast"

Now thats an example of me describing archaeologists entering the crumbling Giza pyramids and removing the treasures from inside the pyramids......

And therein lies the problem. Non specific metaphors are open to "interpretation". Particularly when the colloquial history used in their creation has been lost.

Without too much thinking, I was able to apply your Giza metaphor to 4 different events ranging from the fall of Babylon to the World Trade Center to the final Wall St. crash.

If you also use "sandstone" as a metaphor for something or someone strong, powerful and seemingly impregnable it takes the number of interpretations of your simple metaphor into the hundreds. The words "beast" and "creature" can also be used with a positive or negative connotation to increase the number again.

As an exercise perhaps you should post it in the Cafe and ask the crowd to contribute.

You have picked yourself a task John, I have a feeling that it's going to keep you out of mischief for quite a while. Best of luck

T.A.

P.S. The more I think about, the more interesting the idea of posting your Giza metaphor in the Cafe sounds. Please seriously consider doing so. It could be a lot of fun.

My personal interpretation;
The Book of Revelation is a 100% accurate description of a set of events that have happened, or are about to happen very shortly!

Hey! You can't hedge your bets both ways!!


I still favour the interpretation of that book being the dire apocalyptic writing of a prisoner of Rome lost on a lonely island prison...

Keep searchin',
Martin

Martin,
Its good! I think we are both seeing eye to eye here. That book is heavily loaded with analogies and metaphor's that are really difficult to decode. The descriptions of "The Lamb" and "The Beast", and "The Dragon", and the "24 Elders and 4 living creatures" are very very detailed, they are immensely detailed!! This is why i think they very very accurate analogies or metaphor's for something very precise!!

Ok, i won't hedge my bets! I think the Book of Revelation is a 100% accurate description of events that are happening RIGHT NOW in the world today!

Question; How could someone "prophesy" about the future?

Answer; They can't, full stop!! But there is a big BUT here!!

This what you can do Martin. You can describe something that exists today, using an analogy, that will look exactly the same 2,000 years from now! An example would be to describe "The Giza Pyramids". Today the Giza Pyramids look almost exactly the same as they did 4,500 years ago. So i could use a metaphor to poetically describe them like this -
Metaphor for the Giza Pyramids;
"In the end times, before the return of the Gods, the great sandstone beast will crumble. The skin of the Beast will crumble like cake, and creatures (Archaeologists) will enter the belly of the beast and plunder the guts of the beast"

Now thats an example of me describing archaeologists entering the crumbling Giza pyramids and removing the treasures from inside the pyramids. Martin thats what i think all the metaphor's in the book of revelation are. They are all accurate metaphor's for events that are happening right now today. That book can be decoded! Now the Giza Pyramids thing was just an example, i don't believe they are mentioned in the Book of Revelation. But you get the point i'm making? Writing stuff like that, you can "prophesy" about the future! We know very well that the pyrimads will still be there 2,000 years from now. Nobody is going to steal the actual pyrimads. So its a safe bet to "prophesy" that people will break into the pyrimads at some stage in the future!

John.

That is the probally the best explaination of what a metaphor is, I have ever heard.

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Old James

I seriously think that poor old John had a bad trip that was so vivid he was able to remember it and write it down the next day. You have to remember that both Opium and Hashish would have been available in ancient Palestine or maybe it was too much of the local rough red.

People have predicting the "end of days" ever since Revelations was first published, particularly during the middle ages when plague and warfare were rampant.

On average there is at least one person per year claiming that they have "decoded" Revelations and Armageddon will occur on a specific date. As pointed out above, so far all of them have been wrong. Obviously, by sheer law of averages, one day, one of the doom sayers will turn out to be right.

I can just imagine that their last living act will be to put their thumbs in their ears and go "nyaah, nyaah, nyahh" at those who mocked them :-)

T.A.

My personal interpretation;
The Book of Revelation is a 100% accurate description of a set of events that have happened, or are about to happen very shortly!

Hey! You can't hedge your bets both ways!!


I still favour the interpretation of that book being the dire apocalyptic writing of a prisoner of Rome lost on a lonely island prison...

Keep searchin',
Martin

Martin,
Its good! I think we are both seeing eye to eye here. That book is heavily loaded with analogies and metaphor's that are really difficult to decode. The descriptions of "The Lamb" and "The Beast", and "The Dragon", and the "24 Elders and 4 living creatures" are very very detailed, they are immensely detailed!! This is why i think they very very accurate analogies or metaphor's for something very precise!!

Ok, i won't hedge my bets! I think the Book of Revelation is a 100% accurate description of events that are happening RIGHT NOW in the world today!

Question; How could someone "prophesy" about the future?

Answer; They can't, full stop!! But there is a big BUT here!!

This what you can do Martin. You can describe something that exists today, using an analogy, that will look exactly the same 2,000 years from now! An example would be to describe "The Giza Pyramids". Today the Giza Pyramids look almost exactly the same as they did 4,500 years ago. So i could use a metaphor to poetically describe them like this -
Metaphor for the Giza Pyramids;
"In the end times, before the return of the Gods, the great sandstone beast will crumble. The skin of the Beast will crumble like cake, and creatures (Archaeologists) will enter the belly of the beast and plunder the guts of the beast"

Now thats an example of me describing archaeologists entering the crumbling Giza pyramids and removing the treasures from inside the pyramids. Martin thats what i think all the metaphor's in the book of revelation are. They are all accurate metaphor's for events that are happening right now today. That book can be decoded! Now the Giza Pyramids thing was just an example, i don't believe they are mentioned in the Book of Revelation. But you get the point i'm making? Writing stuff like that, you can "prophesy" about the future! We know very well that the pyrimads will still be there 2,000 years from now. Nobody is going to steal the actual pyrimads. So its a safe bet to "prophesy" that people will break into the pyrimads at some stage in the future!

John.

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I still favour the interpretation of that book being the dire apocalyptic writing of a prisoner of Rome lost on a lonely island prison...
Martin

..has anyone ever stopped to think that the bible is.....

..one of the first fictional novels to enter print a la "Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code"?

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