And you will find a story here everyday on how a firearm has saved a life. Of course if you don't look, keep your head in the sand, or rather stay in Plato's Cave you will never see the story. Not unlike the leftist news does day after day after day...

A lot of those stories seem to be about how people shot burglars, in some cases while they were trying to escape.

So no ones life was in danger in those instances.

I am sure it is a great comfort to all the parents of those dead children that their deaths were a necessary sacrifice so that that shop owners can defend their property and that people can express their constitutional right to machine gun deer.

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Reality Internet Personality

This pretty much 'shoots' down all of the pro-gun arguments made here by using those things called facts.

Enjoy. The answer is not more guns.

I pull this particular paragraph out because of the context of this discussion,

"In 2009, ABC’s “20/20″ demonstrated the problem with a clever experiment. They recruited a dozen or so students, gave them gun training that was more comprehensive than what most states require for concealed carry permits, and then entrusted them with a gun and told them they would have to fend off a shooter later that day. Separating them, they placed each one in a real classroom with other “students” (actually study compatriots). When a gunman burst in and started shooting, each student tried to respond by drawing his or her gun. Every single student failed, including several who had had years of practice shooting guns, and they all got shot (fortunately, it was just paintball bullets in real handguns)."

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Reality Internet Personality

In an article titled, "Are We a Nation of Cowards'?" in the November 15, 1993 issue of Newsweek Magazine, George Will reported that police are more than 5 times more likely than a civilian to shoot an innocent person by mistake.

Police carry guns for self protection. Police are highly trained in the use of the gun. Conclusion: If you carry expecting to use it, you use it.

If you carry for self protection you have already made the decision that you are willing to kill. Funny I thought ID believed in a tablet from a burning bush that says "thou shalt not kill" but I could be wrong.

ID's bravado rants here demonstrate he does not have the proper mind set to be a gun owner. He doesn't understand the responsibility that ownership represents. In short he is to immature to be allowed this right.

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Chicago is the poster child for gun control. Since 2001, 2,000 troops have died in Afghanistan while 5,000 people have been murdered in Chicago. Chicago’s homicide rate is four times greater than New York, and twice that of Los Angeles. Good intentions have yielded bad results in Chicago, and it’s time to face the facts: Criminals and psychotic individuals don’t obey “no guns” signs or gun control laws.

Oklahoma considers arming it's teachers and will try to pass that bill this coming up monday. As should every other state in my Country. We trust our schools with our children every day of the week. A school is a soft target and that is why the crazy, evil people look to a school or shopping mall. They would never storm the White House, that place is guarded with full auotmatic weapons.

Which brings up another point. If the White House would like to keep it's fully automatic weapons, they might think about allowing the average American the right, 2nd Amendment right, to semi-auto weapons. The hypocrisy is more then a tad bit much here. The White House has armed guards with fully auto weapons at the tax payers dime. The man sitting there made the choice to run for the job, if he thinks he a pontificate about our semiauto weapons he can pay out of his pocket for his own home defence. No more free protection from the tax payer.

It's funny that the hypocrisy displayed on this thread never stops. The right to own and use firearms is a right for ALL people who are citizens. Call for that pizza as Guy put it and it gets to your house before the police and meat wagon, yet, they still wish to be a victim to people who will never follow the rules of the state, or federal government. I have said here and will say it again; God allows us the right to protect ourself. It is a God given right and since it is that, it was put right into our Constitution. There are countless quotes from our founders and framers that tell us the same thing. Not only that, the reason is for protection for ourself from outside governments, as well as, inside from our own government. As I have said, slavery comes in many forms.

I am not dependent on the government for my personal saftey. If I was I would not be as safe as I am now. As most should know by now, the government isn't one that can be depended on. If you think so, you are a slave and rightly so. You have given up the right God has given you for what can only be less then adequate protection and become a tax burden to your neighbor. Im called immature? Yet the very same person claims to be libertarian but has NO understanding of liberty, that would be hypocrisy and a sub-par understanding of his own party system and that of the founders themselves. They rant and rave just like the 99ers, give me, me, me, me, look at ME! Such people have no understanding of the founders. "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."George Mason Co-author of the Second Amendment during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788 Yet they turn their back on such men, so far, the chains of slavery rest lightly on them. Soon however, when the chain is yanked and the whip is cracked they will be able only to die to escape the slavery they allowed on themselves. Then they will ask..."Who will come to save me?" Ah, that is the 64,000 dollar question isn't it? The same person who freed the slave in the 1860's. The Christian, the Christian who understood God's Commands, the same Christian who freed the black man. Yet, they want that person disarmed.

I will defend your rights, even the right to be sadly mistaken. But if you think I will give up my rights to make you feel better, you are indeed sadly mistaken!

"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
George Washington
First President of the United States

"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside … Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
Thomas Paine

"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?"
Patrick Henry
American Patriot

"Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not."
Thomas Jefferson
Third President of the United States

"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. "
Noah Webster
American Lexicographer

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
Thomas Jefferson
to James Madison

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Ben Franklin
American Statesman

"The ruling class doesn't care about public safety. Having made it very difficult for States and localities to police themselves, having left ordinary citizens with no choice but to protect themselves as best they can, they now try to take our guns away. In fact they blame us and our guns for crime. This is so wrong that it cannot be an honest mistake."
Malcolm Wallop
former U.S. Sen. (R-WY)

"An armed man is a citizen. A disarmed man is a subject."
A bumper sticker on my SUV

Chicago is the poster child for gun control. Since 2001, 2,000 troops have died in Afghanistan while 5,000 people have been murdered in Chicago. Chicago’s homicide rate is four times greater than New York, and twice that of Los Angeles. Good intentions have yielded bad results in Chicago, and it’s time to face the facts: Criminals and psychotic individuals don’t obey “no guns” signs or gun control laws.

... super nutty stuff removed

Do you think that if they start assessing people's mental health before allowing them guns that you would be allowed to keep yours?

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Reality Internet Personality

+1, ID.

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

Post moved, linking lost.

Today's BBC News did comparisons of gun shot deaths in some countries, based on the population static of per 100,000

It seems the US have 3.2 deaths per year per 100,000 of the population.

Canada have 1.6 gun deaths per year per 100,000 of population.

and

The UK suffers 0.1 gun deaths per year per 100,000 of the population.

Interesting??

A more interesting statistic might be to take those numbers and divide by the fraction of gun ownership in each country. In essence to make the figures deaths per gun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country
USA .88 gun/person
Canada .31 gun/person
UK .06 gun/person
US 3.2/.88 = 3.6
Canada 1.6/.31 = 5.2
UK .1/.06 = 1.7
Very Interesting.

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Post moved linking lost.

Today's BBC News did comparisons of gun shot deaths in some countries, based on the population static of per 100,000

It seems the US have 3.2 deaths per year per 100,000 of the population.

Canada have 1.6 gun deaths per year per 100,000 of population.

and

The UK suffers 0.1 gun deaths per year per 100,000 of the population.

Interesting??

A more interesting statistic might be to take those numbers and divide by the fraction of gun ownership in each country. In essence to make the figures deaths per gun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country
USA .88 gun/person
Canada .31 gun/person
UK .06 gun/person
US 3.2/.88 = 3.6
Canada 1.6/.31 = 5.2
UK .1/.06 = 1.7
Very Interesting.

No, your idea falls on two counts. In fact it is very bad comparison.

One, it is very difficult to own a gun in the UK. Almost impossible for handguns after Dunblane. i.e. Even the UK's Olympic shooters fall under this ban; shooters can only train in Northern Ireland, the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, or abroad (in Switzerland, in practice)
Two, All guns have to be stored in authorised and regulary inspected, secure cabinets when not in use or being transported (other regs apply)

So the UK deaths/gun figure is always going to be very high.

It is actually deaths per 100,000 guns as I forgot that factor in the original numbers.

In any case it is even more interesting in the light of the extreme restrictions in the UK. It establishes a lower bound that shows no amount of gun control/laws completely removes gun deaths.

As to Canada having a higher rate than the USA, IIRC Canada has more restrictions on guns than the USA. Interesting that greater restrictions seems to result in more deaths per gun. Perhaps showing that tighter gun laws concentrate gun ownership into the hands of people more likely to use them for gun violence. Obviously something legislators should hear about before they go off half cocked.

I'll admit this is back of the envelope numbers and a real scientific study should be done. I didn't even check to see if the gun ownership numbers was total owned or only officially owned ignoring illegal guns. That could easily change the numbers.

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http://gunowners.org/fs0404.htm

* Guns are used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year—or about 6,850 times a day.(1) This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.(2)
* Concealed carry laws have reduced murder and crime rates in the states that have enacted them. According to a comprehensive study which reviewed crime statistics in every county in the United States from 1977 to 1992, states which passed concealed carry laws reduced their rate of murder by 8.5%, rape by 5%, aggravated assault by 7% and robbery by 3%.(4)
* Twice as many children are killed playing football in school than are murdered by guns. That’s right. Despite what media coverage might seem to indicate, there are more deaths related to high school football than guns. In a recent three year period, twice as many football players died from hits to the head, heat stroke, etc. (45), as compared with students who were murdered by firearms (22) during that same time period.(6)
* Gun shows are NOT a primary source of illegal guns for criminals. According to two government studies, the National Institute of Justice reported in 1997 that "less than two percent [of criminals] reported obtaining [firearms] from a gun show."(10) And the Bureau of Justice Statistics revealed in 2001 that less than one percent of firearm offenders acquired their weapons at gun shows.(11)
* Zogby pollsters found that by a more than 3 to 1 margin, Americans support punishing "criminals who use a gun in the commission of a crime" over legislation to "ban handguns."(13)
* Gun-free England not such a utopia after all. According to the BBC News, handgun crime in the United Kingdom rose by 40% in the two years after it passed its draconian gun ban in 1997.(18) And according to a United Nations study, British citizens are more likely to become a victim of crime than are people in the United States. The 2000 report shows that the crime rate in England is higher than the crime rates of 16 other industrialized nations, including the United States.(19)


* Guns are used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year—or about 6,850 times a day.(20) This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.(21)
* Of the 2.5 million times citizens use their guns to defend themselves every year, the overwhelming majority merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers. Less than 8% of the time, a citizen will kill or wound his/her attacker.(22)
* As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves against sexual abuse.(23)
* Armed citizens kill more crooks than do the police. Citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year (1,527 to 606)(25). And readers of Newsweek learned that "only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The ‘error rate’ for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high."(26)

* Nationwide: one-half million self-defense uses. Every year, as many as one-half million citizens defend themselves with a firearm away from home.(28)
* Concealed carry laws are dropping crime rates across the country. A comprehensive national study determined in 1996 that violent crime fell after states made it legal to carry concealed firearms. The results of the study showed:
* States which passed concealed carry laws reduced their rate of murder by 8.5%, rape by 5%, aggravated assault by 7% and robbery by 3%;(29) and
* If those states not having concealed carry laws had adopted such laws in 1992, then approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and over 11,000 robberies would have been avoided yearly.(30)
* Vermont: one of the safest five states in the country. In Vermont, citizens can carry a firearm without getting permission . . . without paying a fee . . . or without going through any kind of government-imposed waiting period. And yet for ten years in a row, Vermont has remained one of the top-five, safest states in the union—having three times received the "Safest State Award."(31)

* 3/5 of felons polled agreed that "a criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun."(42)
* 74% of felons polled agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime."(43)
* 57% of felons polled agreed that "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."(44)

Armed citizens kill more crooks than do the police. Citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year

Are the "crooks" also armed?

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Armed citizens kill more crooks than do the police. Citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year

Are the "crooks" also armed?

I provided you with the link.

ID, how do these statistics help solve the problem that is the topic of this thread?

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If you read this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_statistics, then you will find trying to compare crime statistics from one country to another is like comparing apples to potatoes. The way statistics are compiled are so varied then you cannot even compare them as both being fruits.

Also official statistics may or may not record the actual rate of crime, depending on the publics perception of the Polices competence.

With all due respect I.D. I would rather believe this site, Harvard Injury Control Research Center
Gun Threats and Self-Defense Gun Use than your links unsubstantiated ramblings.

4. Most purported self-defense gun uses are gun uses in escalating arguments and are both socially undesirable and illegal

We analyzed data from two national random-digit-dial surveys conducted under the auspices of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center. Criminal court judges who read the self-reported accounts of the purported self-defense gun use rated a majority as being illegal, even assuming that the respondent had a permit to own and to carry a gun, and that the respondent had described the event honestly from his own perspective.

Hemenway, David; Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah. Gun use in the United States: Results from two national surveys. Injury Prevention. 2000; 6:263-267.

short explaination. those who claim to use guns in self defense are usually liars.

People who don't know what a gun is, don't know what parts there are to a gun, can't speak intelligently about the capabilities of a gun, or know the original reason it was placed in the bill of rights immediatley after the 1st, should not be allowed to write laws about guns.

I think that after Friday, we are all painfully aware of the capabilities of a gun.

Perhaps people who haven't had a child taken from them by a gun should be stopped from writing laws about them.

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Reality Internet Personality

+1, Guy.