Windows 8 Release Preview now available

Message boards : Number crunching : Windows 8 Release Preview now available
Message board moderation

To post messages, you must log in.

Previous · 1 . . . 4 · 5 · 6 · 7 · 8 · Next

AuthorMessage
Profile Bernie Vine
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 May 99
Posts: 9949
Credit: 103,452,613
RAC: 328
United Kingdom
Message 1305543 - Posted: 12 Nov 2012, 21:02:14 UTC

And the manufacturer of Windows also sells "anti virus" products and 'after-care' security updates and support to patch over the security holes in the original product...


Microsoft Security Essentials is free and so are all security updates. I am assuming you mean something else?
ID: 1305543 · Report as offensive
Profile ML1
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 25 Nov 01
Posts: 16696
Credit: 7,508,002
RAC: 20
United Kingdom
Message 1305620 - Posted: 12 Nov 2012, 23:44:34 UTC - in response to Message 1305543.  
Last modified: 12 Nov 2012, 23:45:20 UTC

And the manufacturer of Windows also sells "anti virus" products and 'after-care' security updates and support to patch over the security holes in the original product...


Microsoft Security Essentials is free and so are all security updates. I am assuming you mean something else?

Yes, the 'paid for' 'enhancements'...

Are you reassured by a non-purchased closed product that is carefully named "Essentials" suggesting that you should be 'upgrading' to something a 'little more substantial'?

Also note the corporate costs for those companies and organizations trapped in expensive lock-in on older systems whereby support is only available if paid for...


But still, so many years down the line, why do we still have such a malware problem requiring 3rd-party 'band-aid' fixes? As any good doctor would advise: It is far better to cure an ailment at source rather than merely treat the symptoms. (Unless perhaps that is you are talking placebo or alternatively palliative care...)


IT is what we make it,
Martin
See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
ID: 1305620 · Report as offensive
Sirius B Project Donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Dec 00
Posts: 24570
Credit: 3,081,182
RAC: 7
Ireland
Message 1305630 - Posted: 13 Nov 2012, 0:04:53 UTC

ID: 1305630 · Report as offensive
W-K 666 Project Donor
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 18 May 99
Posts: 17741
Credit: 40,757,560
RAC: 67
United Kingdom
Message 1305919 - Posted: 14 Nov 2012, 0:17:27 UTC

Why was the lead on Win8, Steven Sinofsky, pushed out?
ID: 1305919 · Report as offensive
Sirius B Project Donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Dec 00
Posts: 24570
Credit: 3,081,182
RAC: 7
Ireland
Message 1305926 - Posted: 14 Nov 2012, 0:24:02 UTC - in response to Message 1305919.  

From the report I read, I got the impression that he's not too pleased with the direction Balmer's taking Microsoft.
ID: 1305926 · Report as offensive
Profile ML1
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 25 Nov 01
Posts: 16696
Credit: 7,508,002
RAC: 20
United Kingdom
Message 1306084 - Posted: 14 Nov 2012, 13:10:30 UTC - in response to Message 1305926.  

From the report I read, I got the impression that he's not too pleased with the direction Balmer's taking Microsoft.

My thoughts also.

And also, there can only be one leader...


IT is what we make it,
Martin

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
ID: 1306084 · Report as offensive
Profile ML1
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 25 Nov 01
Posts: 16696
Credit: 7,508,002
RAC: 20
United Kingdom
Message 1307465 - Posted: 18 Nov 2012, 18:41:15 UTC
Last modified: 18 Nov 2012, 18:46:08 UTC

OK, so I've had my hands and eyes dirtied for real on a Windows 8 desktop system and so now for my own personal mini-review...


What a schizophrenic muddled mess for the user interface!


There is the Windows 8 "Metro" display (or whatever it is called for the moment). That works fine. However... I find the actively updated icons/tiles to be very distracting. The beveled edge effect for highlighting the current focus on whatever tile looks very old and clunky/crude. It all reminds me of the sort of thing that was done on the very first *nix workstation X displays from the 1980's, all with minimal application code needed. Yet you then get modern day style swish eye-candy transitions when opening an app/program to full screen. A strange juxtaposition.

The "Metro" focus is very much a single-App-at-a-time operation. But you then get that clean focus broken by a strange two-pane option with screen wasting borders if you want to run two Apps side-by-side as is often needed for anything more than web surfing. More on that later in what should have been done.


There is also a "desktop view" as from Windows 7 and prior, with all that is good and bad about the Windows desktop.


There is also a sort of Android-like view of pulling in side bars and side panels for notifications, settings, and context views.


There is also an Apple-like sort of operation to the minimalist pseudo-context sensitive multiple usage bar that appears across the bottom.


"Apps" seem to be the new name for programs that open up to take the full screen, and usually have a "Metro" styled look, but not always. You still have "Programs" that open up either as "Metro" or as a program of old would on the multiple windows desktop view.

There's a few 'user productivity features' bolted onto the "Metro" view that appear or not depending upon context.


Even knowing the history behind all that lot and seeing in what way things have likely been bolted on, my poor little mind was struggling to work out what context Win8 thought it was in so as not to randomly surprise me. Still all rather (unnecessarily) confusing.

In Computer Science/Engineering, all good students get drummed into them the importance of maintaining a consistent user interface that users can easily follow and understand. Win8 breaks those usability 'rules' for the worse. You even have the old 'run' dialog box still in there from the ancient days of DOS! (What in whatever names in the pantheon of pagan gods is that still doing in there?!!) As a third year university student project, I would mark the user interface to Win8 down as a confused "2", redo again to gain a credit/pass.


So what should have been done?

If you're in the "Metro" display, then you should only have available whatever "Apps" support and maintain the look and feel of that display mode. Single focus is an important part of that and that must be maintained. Split views are simply NOT a part of that. If a split view is needed by whatever App, then that should be within that App and displayed as part of that App's display in a consistent way. (There should be "Metro" APIs made available to help with that.)

And the display should be Win8, and nothing more, nothing old history.


For those wanting Win7 operation and before, then there should be a full context switch over to then stay in the Win7 way of working. There should be none of the schizophrenia that some things open up Metro and other things yank you over to a desktop!


I'm very much saddened that after over two decades of development on what is now phenomenally powerful hardware, for myself Win8 appears to be such a muddled mess with multiple ways of user operation all morphed together into a Franken-monster. To my eyes, there is no consistent look for the user interface let alone for the user interaction.

And there is yet still the ongoing viruses/malware debacle whereby as a user you are made to be too scared to even touch anything in case Windows breaks!


Computers should just simply work, reliably, and for the users.

IT is what we make it,
Martin


Disclaimer: All merely my own personal views as always.

(All in a ridiculously litigious world :-( )
See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
ID: 1307465 · Report as offensive
Sirius B Project Donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Dec 00
Posts: 24570
Credit: 3,081,182
RAC: 7
Ireland
Message 1307527 - Posted: 18 Nov 2012, 22:38:39 UTC - in response to Message 1307465.  

+1
ID: 1307527 · Report as offensive
Profile ML1
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 25 Nov 01
Posts: 16696
Credit: 7,508,002
RAC: 20
United Kingdom
Message 1307885 - Posted: 19 Nov 2012, 21:33:25 UTC - in response to Message 1307465.  
Last modified: 19 Nov 2012, 21:35:58 UTC

OK, so I've had my hands and eyes dirtied for real on a Windows 8 desktop system and so now for my own personal mini-review...


What a schizophrenic muddled mess for the user interface!

[...]

I'm very much saddened that after over two decades of development on what is now phenomenally powerful hardware, for myself Win8 appears to be such a muddled mess with multiple ways of user operation all morphed together into a Franken-monster. To my eyes, there is no consistent look for the user interface let alone for the user interaction.

And there is yet still the ongoing viruses/malware debacle whereby as a user you are made to be too scared to even touch anything in case Windows breaks!


Computers should just simply work, reliably, and for the users.


By 'eck, has someone from The Register read my review?!...


Design guru: Windows 8 is 'a monster' and 'a tortured soul'

... US usability guru Jakob Nielsen has rubbished "disappointing" Windows 8, savaging the Microsoft OS's signature Live Tiles and its complicated gestures.

"Windows 8 encompasses two UI styles within one product," he said in a post on his useit website. "Windows 8 on mobile devices and tablets is akin to Dr Jekyll: a tortured soul hoping for redemption.

"On a regular PC, Windows 8 is Mr Hyde: a monster that terrorises poor office workers and strangles their productivity."

Microsoft's Live Tiles have "backfired" with "hyper-energised" tiles that have far too much going on...

... the result makes the Surface Start screen into an incessantly blinking, unruly environment that feels like dozens of carnival barkers yelling at you simultaneously."

The new more complicated gestures also presented problems, requiring users to be highly accurate and learn a bunch of new sequences off by heart.



Ouch!


IT is what we make it,
Martin


Disclaimer: All merely my own personal views as always.

(All in a ridiculously litigious world :-( )
See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
ID: 1307885 · Report as offensive
Sirius B Project Donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Dec 00
Posts: 24570
Credit: 3,081,182
RAC: 7
Ireland
Message 1307927 - Posted: 19 Nov 2012, 22:40:26 UTC - in response to Message 1307885.  

Oh boy, something is seriously wrong at Microsoft....

...that's another +1 :(

On to more sirius matters :)

I've had 2 Win 8 laptops in today with the customers hating it & wanting to revert back to Win 7. They tried themselves but hit problems.

I tried & had the same issue, Win 7 would not install with no idea as to why not! One hit 74% of installion & then froze (did this several times), the 2nd wouldn't go past 13%.

Backed up their data files, wiped drive, reinstalled Win 7, no problem. Just wondering if Win 8 is designed for future upgrades & preventing downgrading like previous versions.
ID: 1307927 · Report as offensive
Profile HAL9000
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 11 Sep 99
Posts: 6533
Credit: 196,805,888
RAC: 57
United States
Message 1308109 - Posted: 20 Nov 2012, 14:59:23 UTC - in response to Message 1307927.  

Oh boy, something is seriously wrong at Microsoft....

...that's another +1 :(

On to more sirius matters :)

I've had 2 Win 8 laptops in today with the customers hating it & wanting to revert back to Win 7. They tried themselves but hit problems.

I tried & had the same issue, Win 7 would not install with no idea as to why not! One hit 74% of installation & then froze (did this several times), the 2nd wouldn't go past 13%.

Backed up their data files, wiped drive, reinstalled Win 7, no problem. Just wondering if Win 8 is designed for future upgrades & preventing downgrading like previous versions.

To replace a newer version of Windows with an older one it is almost always required to blow away the old one. If nothing else it is quicker and less of a headache.
If want to install multiple versions of windows you often need to install them in order of oldest to newest to make sure they are all happy.
SETI@home classic workunits: 93,865 CPU time: 863,447 hours
Join the BP6/VP6 User Group today!
ID: 1308109 · Report as offensive
Profile Raistmer
Volunteer developer
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 16 Jun 01
Posts: 6324
Credit: 106,370,077
RAC: 121
Russia
Message 1308256 - Posted: 21 Nov 2012, 6:26:49 UTC

Yeah, what a "song" repairing XP boot after Win7 installation that refuses to understand boot.ini and offers some binary format that XP not aware of ...
I'm quite sure such incompatibilities have no real technical reason. They just added for M$ enrichment via making old setups less and less workable and "stimulating" users to buy new OSes...
Few days ago I once again was amazed of boot speed of fresh WinXP installed on almost 10 years old P4-based (with slow HDD, slow memory and so on) PC. Never can achieve such boot speed on Q9450 with RAID SATA HDD for Vista....
Corporations are evil....
SETI apps news
We're not gonna fight them. We're gonna transcend them.
ID: 1308256 · Report as offensive
tbret
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 28 May 99
Posts: 3380
Credit: 296,162,071
RAC: 40
United States
Message 1308262 - Posted: 21 Nov 2012, 7:06:39 UTC - in response to Message 1308256.  


Few days ago I once again was amazed of boot speed of fresh WinXP installed on almost 10 years old P4-based (with slow HDD, slow memory and so on) PC.


I had the same experience with some old P4s and XP Pro 32-bit recently. I was really very surprised by how fast everything is.

I wonder how fast a Win 3.1 or NT 4 computer with a Pentium MMX 233 would feel now? You could put the whole OS and a slew of programs on a $10 USB stick, but then you'd need Win2k.
ID: 1308262 · Report as offensive
Profile HAL9000
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 11 Sep 99
Posts: 6533
Credit: 196,805,888
RAC: 57
United States
Message 1308348 - Posted: 21 Nov 2012, 13:51:30 UTC - in response to Message 1308256.  

Yeah, what a "song" repairing XP boot after Win7 installation that refuses to understand boot.ini and offers some binary format that XP not aware of ...
I'm quite sure such incompatibilities have no real technical reason. They just added for M$ enrichment via making old setups less and less workable and "stimulating" users to buy new OSes...
Few days ago I once again was amazed of boot speed of fresh WinXP installed on almost 10 years old P4-based (with slow HDD, slow memory and so on) PC. Never can achieve such boot speed on Q9450 with RAID SATA HDD for Vista....
Corporations are evil....

I dislike the fact that I must wait for several separate drive controllers to do detection before the OS starts to load my newer machines.
My old Pentium M notebook without all of that stuff to slow booting down will will get to the desktop faster with 7 than XP. However 7 is still loading the rest of the system up in the background.
SETI@home classic workunits: 93,865 CPU time: 863,447 hours
Join the BP6/VP6 User Group today!
ID: 1308348 · Report as offensive
Profile ML1
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 25 Nov 01
Posts: 16696
Credit: 7,508,002
RAC: 20
United Kingdom
Message 1308380 - Posted: 21 Nov 2012, 15:53:53 UTC
Last modified: 21 Nov 2012, 15:57:53 UTC

So you think you own your own hardware?...

Think again... The Windows 8 mandating of UEFI has already reared a very ugly aspect for anything not Windows 8:


Adventures in Microsoft UEFI Signing

As I explained in my previous post, we have the code for the Linux Foundation pre-bootloader in place. However, there was a delay while we got access to the Microsoft signing system. ...


More in the series of bizarre UEFI bugs

... but after an apparently successful installation refused to boot. UEFI installs on Windows worked perfectly. ...


So... Difficult and bureaucratic and may well not work in any case...

And really, will users be able to turn off the UEFI restrictions?...


I'm predicting this is going to be another one for the courts to pick over the pieces to catch up with past events from a decade hence...

Perhaps the continuing bad press and shoddiness may well hasten the rise of Android and even that of Apple and any other systems that are seen to work well. GNU/Linux versions also even...

However, I guess first we must overcome the world-wide thermonuclear litigation onslaught from Apple and the decades of lock-in from Microsoft...


IT is what we make it,
Martin


Disclaimer: All merely my own personal views as always.

(All in a ridiculously litigious world :-( )
See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
ID: 1308380 · Report as offensive
Sirius B Project Donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Dec 00
Posts: 24570
Credit: 3,081,182
RAC: 7
Ireland
Message 1308384 - Posted: 21 Nov 2012, 16:26:42 UTC - in response to Message 1308380.  

Jeebers, just finished reading your 1st link Martin.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've read, if I buy a UEFI mobo, build a system & then install an O/S of my own making, it will not install?

2ndly, wtf is M$ doing in control of UEFI anyway? That should be a standard like the old style bios & not locked in by ANY O/S provider!
ID: 1308384 · Report as offensive
Profile HAL9000
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 11 Sep 99
Posts: 6533
Credit: 196,805,888
RAC: 57
United States
Message 1308393 - Posted: 21 Nov 2012, 17:19:39 UTC
Last modified: 21 Nov 2012, 17:40:50 UTC

Microsoft does not require UEFI for Windows 8. Older systems using BIOS work fine. They did make a requirement that computers that are certified for Windows 8 be shipped with the UEFI Secure Boot option enabled. If a manufacture choose not to provide the option to disable that feature it is up to them. IIRC Mirosoft did try to mandate that Windows RT devices not be allowed to disable Secure Boot.

All of the systems I currently have with UEFI have an option to use UEFI or legacy BIOS mode.

EDIT: I think UEFI Secure Boot will become one of those feature like the Intel processor serial number.

Also: The UEFI governing body. http://www.uefi.org/
The board of directors is made up of mostly system manufactures but includes Microsoft & Apple. I am sure Red Hat & other groups are members.
SETI@home classic workunits: 93,865 CPU time: 863,447 hours
Join the BP6/VP6 User Group today!
ID: 1308393 · Report as offensive
Profile j mercer
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 3 Jun 99
Posts: 2421
Credit: 12,323,733
RAC: 1
United States
Message 1308494 - Posted: 21 Nov 2012, 20:22:14 UTC

ID: 1308494 · Report as offensive
Sirius B Project Donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Dec 00
Posts: 24570
Credit: 3,081,182
RAC: 7
Ireland
Message 1308519 - Posted: 21 Nov 2012, 21:56:07 UTC - in response to Message 1308494.  

LOL! convenient. Microsoft Just Messed Up and Gave Out a Free Windows 8 Activation Key


Even if they eventually get around to locking those keys out, all one has to do is to purchase the Media Center Pack, currently £6.99 in the UK.
ID: 1308519 · Report as offensive
Profile ML1
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 25 Nov 01
Posts: 16696
Credit: 7,508,002
RAC: 20
United Kingdom
Message 1309054 - Posted: 23 Nov 2012, 0:31:16 UTC - in response to Message 1308380.  

So you think you own your own hardware?...

Think again... The Windows 8 mandating of UEFI has already reared a very ugly aspect for anything not Windows 8:


Adventures in Microsoft UEFI Signing

As I explained in my previous post, we have the code for the Linux Foundation pre-bootloader in place. However, there was a delay while we got access to the Microsoft signing system. ...


More in the series of bizarre UEFI bugs

... but after an apparently successful installation refused to boot. UEFI installs on Windows worked perfectly. ...


So... Difficult and bureaucratic and may well not work in any case...

And really, will users be able to turn off the UEFI restrictions?...

Well... The story and obstructiveness continues...


Microsoft dragging its feet on Linux Secure Boot fix

The Linux Foundation's promised workaround that will allow Linux to boot on Windows 8 PCs has yet to clear Microsoft's code certification process, although the exact reason for the hold-up remains unclear.

As The Reg reported previously, the Secure Boot feature of the Unified Extensible Firmware Interface (UEFI) found on modern Windows 8 PCs will only allow an OS to boot if its code has been digitally signed with a key obtained from Microsoft.

That's a problem for many Linux distributions, because some lack the resources to purchase a Microsoft key, while others simply refuse to.

To help get around UEFI's restrictions, the Linux Foundation has been developing a signed "pre-bootloader" as a stop-gap measure that will allow Linux distributions to boot, until such time as open source developers can come up with more effective solutions.

For that plan to work, however...



To me, it still looks like Microsoft has engineered/maneuvered a real slam-dunk that is very definitely not for the good of any users of any OS. You want a new version of OS for your old hardware?... Add a little Microsoft bureaucracy to that?...

And how many users know or dare do the magic to twiddle BIOS/UEFI settings even if that is possible/allowed?... Add in "warranty requirements" and?...


IT is what we make it,
Martin


Disclaimer: All merely my own personal views as always.

(All in a ridiculously litigious world :-( )

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
ID: 1309054 · Report as offensive
Previous · 1 . . . 4 · 5 · 6 · 7 · 8 · Next

Message boards : Number crunching : Windows 8 Release Preview now available


 
©2022 University of California
 
SETI@home and Astropulse are funded by grants from the National Science Foundation, NASA, and donations from SETI@home volunteers. AstroPulse is funded in part by the NSF through grant AST-0307956.