The End of the Beginning......

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Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
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Message 1240871 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 22:01:06 UTC - in response to Message 1240863.  

It's not a question of fair splits if the Captain is abusing the "swabbies" as you put it. Unfortunately, there's too many with that attitude in the financial sectors worldwide..hence the crisis that's getting worse.

I have no problems with splits between owners & employees as long as the employees are treated fairly as without them, the captain can't make any profit at all!

You went and used that word fair again. Define your concept of fair. Otherwise it is all useless hand waving.

Is fair putting out an ad saying you will pay X for a swabbie and someone saying, I'll take that job? Or is that somehow unfair and abusive?

I understand you have a gut feeling something isn't right. Reduce that gut feeling into something concrete and perhaps others can understand what fair means to you.

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Message 1240872 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 22:01:39 UTC - in response to Message 1240867.  

Thanks Nick, that's exactly the same as the FT report.
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Message 1240876 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 22:07:34 UTC - in response to Message 1240871.  
Last modified: 3 Jun 2012, 22:08:12 UTC

I'll try on a small scale.

A company has 100 employees (99 + owner). In a given year, the company makes massive profits. the owner decides to give a portion of those profits to the employees. now we all know that position & staus counts for a lot these days, so apply shares accordingly.

Bottom of the rung gets, say, £1000 with the top employee getting say, £10,000. & as the company is forecast to make even more profits for the following year, boss decides to give a set amount as a payrise across the board.

All employees know that should matters not be profiable to a fair extent in any one year, raises/bonuses not available.

This worked smoothly in the past as compared to now...the biggest staus holder gets the biggest share & sod the "swabbies" seems to be your premise...again, that's why the current crisis.
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Message 1240896 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 22:46:26 UTC

Interssting views form the future workforce/leaders.....

What young people think of the euro crisis

the last paragraph makes an interesting point....

"Josefine has also been thinking about what would happen if she did not earn a salary anymore. “I have thought about producing things with my own hands – for example, having my own garden and becoming self-sufficient.” She is convinced that people will begin to be interested in long-term alternative ways of life. “There is no point in repairing a broken-down system, if it was wrong right from the start".
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Message 1240898 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 22:53:24 UTC - in response to Message 1240896.  

Interssting views form the future workforce/leaders.....

What young people think of the euro crisis

the last paragraph makes an interesting point....

"Josefine has also been thinking about what would happen if she did not earn a salary anymore. “I have thought about producing things with my own hands – for example, having my own garden and becoming self-sufficient.” She is convinced that people will begin to be interested in long-term alternative ways of life. “There is no point in repairing a broken-down system, if it was wrong right from the start".

Josefinen gets a free ticket then to join our club, Sirius; she earn't
herself full marks here.


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Message 1240900 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 22:57:26 UTC - in response to Message 1240898.  

Yep, carry on like that & she'll get herself a degree.
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Message 1240901 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 22:59:20 UTC - in response to Message 1240900.  
Last modified: 3 Jun 2012, 23:02:05 UTC

Yep, carry on like that & she'll get herself a degree.

....LoL....

A bit chilly here in Russia at the moment, Sirius; but at least the sun is out.
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Message 1240904 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 23:12:21 UTC - in response to Message 1240901.  

LOL, however, if this guy is right, you'd better come home......

Germany has 3 months to stem Euro Crisis

..and if the German people are to believed, I think he could be....

German attitude on euro crisis is changing...
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Message 1240906 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 23:18:43 UTC - in response to Message 1240904.  

LOL, however, if this guy is right, you'd better come home......

Germany has 3 months to stem Euro Crisis

..and if the German people are to believed, I think he could be....

German attitude on euro crisis is changing...

Good, if that means Germany become the fall-guy for the collapse of the
whole shebang then I will come back home...didn't much like my new name
of Vladimir any way...plus you can't get fish and chips here either...and to
think that they've never even heard of Irish coffee...what a place!!



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Message 1240909 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 23:24:30 UTC - in response to Message 1240906.  

You better stay there for now...then you can come home early with the England team.... :) (Sorry, only support England in cricket).

Can Germany change course?

Personally I admire Germany........but, only on the football field.

time for all euro nations to "go home early".
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Message 1240915 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 23:35:05 UTC - in response to Message 1240909.  
Last modified: 3 Jun 2012, 23:36:29 UTC

You better stay there for now...then you can come home early with the England team.... :) (Sorry, only support England in cricket).

Can Germany change course?

Personally I admire Germany........but, only on the football field.

time for all euro nations to "go home early".

Best I wait for the end game just in case Germany doesn't get the blame.
Time for bed...even though it's still day time over here.
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Message 1240918 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 23:40:27 UTC - in response to Message 1240915.  

Naw, we'll end up getting the blame. Have good one.
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Message 1240921 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 23:45:03 UTC - in response to Message 1240918.  

Naw, we'll end up getting the blame. Have good one.

OK I will. By the way if the poo does hit the fan over the ECM/Euro
I'll see if we can smuggle you out and over to Russia....


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Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
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Message 1240922 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 23:46:46 UTC - in response to Message 1240921.  

Only if they have decent "truckers cafe's".
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Message 1240938 - Posted: 4 Jun 2012, 0:12:36 UTC - in response to Message 1240922.  

Only if they have decent "truckers cafe's".

Yup and they need truckers who know there way around the UK roads system
too, Boris; you'll walk straight into a job over here with your qualifications.

I'm gone....


The Kite Fliers

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Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.
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Message 1240941 - Posted: 4 Jun 2012, 0:21:35 UTC - in response to Message 1240876.  

I'll try on a small scale.

A company has 100 employees (99 + owner). In a given year, the company makes massive profits. the owner decides to give a portion of those profits to the employees. now we all know that position & staus counts for a lot these days, so apply shares accordingly.

Bottom of the rung gets, say, £1000 with the top employee getting say, £10,000. & as the company is forecast to make even more profits for the following year, boss decides to give a set amount as a payrise across the board.

All employees know that should matters not be profiable to a fair extent in any one year, raises/bonuses not available.

This worked smoothly in the past as compared to now...the biggest staus holder gets the biggest share & sod the "swabbies" seems to be your premise...again, that's why the current crisis.

Actually it caused all manner of hell on the day the company couldn't pay out the promise. 50 employees ran to their lawyers and filed suit that the company violated its employment contract. They found a labor board judge who agreed with them. The R&D advertising and marketing and R&D budgets suddenly went to the employees. Bankruptcy soon follows. But I digress.

It might work for a sole proprietorship. It can't work for a public company. Why? Fiduciary duty to the shareholder. It forces the boss to be a rat a** bastard and milk every penny out. Since the shareholders vote on the boss' compensation, he can get more. The shareholders still get the loin's share. And note that the compensation committee is never a regular employee as that would create a conflict of interest under the fiduciary duty to the shareholder.

BTW Fiduciary duty to the shareholder is a very complex subject. Understanding it is, well you need some law school to fully grasp it. It boils down to having to be a rat a** bastard to everyone and milk everyone for every penny in every way you can imagine. Brainstorm and come up with new things you can call fees and charge them to the customer and not do anything more. Be super stingy to the swabbies. Pay your vendors at the last second. Demand they make you more for less next year. You can't be nice or fair and be doing your fiduciary duty to the shareholder.


Oh, your example has a flaw in it. The boss will not get just 10 times as you indicated. He owns the place. He also gets the capital appreciation. That likely puts him into getting 100 to 1000 times. But for a sole proprietorship that kind of gets hidden. A public company has to disclose that capital appreciation the boss gets in its 10K.

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Message 1240945 - Posted: 4 Jun 2012, 0:26:33 UTC - in response to Message 1240941.  

OK, my mistake in lumping all companies with the same virtues. However, what you posted may be correct for a public company but its incorrect for a private company.


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Message 1240947 - Posted: 4 Jun 2012, 0:28:50 UTC - in response to Message 1240945.  

OK, my mistake in lumping all companies with the same virtues. However, what you posted may be correct for a public company but its incorrect for a private company.

I thought I made the difference clear. And perhaps there is a difference in labor law on each side of the pond. Here you better not mention the future to a worker or you have a contract that is enforceable.


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Message 1240950 - Posted: 4 Jun 2012, 0:31:55 UTC - in response to Message 1240947.  

You more than likely did, & I didn't pick up on it. Are you saying that what is said verbally can actually be construed as a contract?
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Message 1240955 - Posted: 4 Jun 2012, 0:40:21 UTC - in response to Message 1240950.  

You more than likely did, & I didn't pick up on it. Are you saying that what is said verbally can actually be construed as a contract?

It can in the USA.
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