A sigh is a kind of paralinguistic respiration in the form of a deep and especially audible, single exhalation of air out of the mouth or nose, that humans use to communicate emotion. It is voiced pharyngeal fricative, sometimes associated with a guttural glottal breath exuded in a low tone. It often arises from a negative emotion, such as dismay, dissatisfaction, boredom, or futility.

I couldn't have put it better myself ....

So in effect, you want the banks to continue gouging themselves at the trough. You poor lost soul...maybe a visit to ID's thread might restore your faith.... :)

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You poor lost soul...maybe a visit to ID's thread might restore your faith.... :)

No thanks, a visit to my local pub might restore my sanity, and I can find my own way there. Won't guarantee the way back ... :-)

I agree a good beer is better than some time with I.D.

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Indeed

I agree a good beer is better than any time with I.D.

Hence my comment -- the folks really pressing for heavy duty austerity are the current 'haves' in Europe. The folks resisting include virtually all of the 'have nots'.

Therefore your suggestion would seem to place you on the 'have' side of that divide.

Find a way toward austerity and budget balancing which doesn't screw the poor even more. I'll be all for that.

It's going to get wider. The point is that carrying on as we are is only building up serious trouble for the future. The Euro needs to die a quick death.

Hence my comment -- the folks really pressing for heavy duty austerity are the current 'haves' in Europe. The folks resisting include virtually all of the 'have nots'.

Therefore your suggestion would seem to place you on the 'have' side of that divide.

Find a way toward austerity and budget balancing which doesn't screw the poor even more. I'll be all for that.

It's going to get wider. The point is that carrying on as we are is only building up serious trouble for the future. The Euro needs to die a quick death.

Barry, well we have spent the last 30 years or so proving trickle down economics does not work so it is time to do something else. I personally would like to see progressive taxation. If one were to accept the concept of diminishing marginal utility the even the 1% would feel little and the rest would be able to provide demand to spur growth.

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What I do disagree with is the ever widening gap between the top dogs & those on the lower rungs of the ladder.

If the top is to rise, then the ladder has to stretch to grow. The bottom is rather well established and isn't going to be lifted, so the only way to grow is to have a greater disparity.

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Hence my comment -- the folks really pressing for heavy duty austerity are the current 'haves' in Europe. The folks resisting include virtually all of the 'have nots'. That may well be the case.

Therefore your suggestion would seem to place you on the 'have' side of that divide. Again, what left field did that come from? Totally wrong assumption.

Find a way toward austerity and budget balancing which doesn't screw the poor even more. I'll be all for that. Now that I agree with, even though I can't see how that will be applied.

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3 reports that show that problems still lie ahead...

BoE & Lending Rates

QE Fears

Europe could face a lost decade

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David Cameron held crisis talks with eurozone leaders amid mounting speculation that the world's central banks are poised to launch a massive financial intervention after Sunday's Greek elections.

We have to wait and see before commenting further.

From the same link from which you quoted...

"Whichever way the Greeks vote in Sunday's election, a chaotic exit from the euro is becoming more likely - its tax revenues are collapsing, not rising as promised.

'Unable to regain access to markets, Portugal and Ireland will soon have to ask for their second IMF programmes (bailouts).

'Sadly Italy - and potentially even France - may soon follow Spain in needing finance as the European recession deepens. Even German banks, which are some of the most highly leveraged, are not immune from needing more capital."

So regardless of Sunday, the problem will still be with us.

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That is totally un-neccessary. Greece is not the main issue, but is being used to sidestep the over riding issue that's at the heart of the problem.

Greece has only hightlighted the problem facing Europe with regards to the single currency - it's proven that its not working - So Greece could be the start of forcing all countries in the Eurozone to either return to their own currencies or do what Merkel wants.

That's been obvious since the crisis escalated, but all we're getting is dithering rather than face up to the fact that a decision has to be made & all within the zone implement it.

As history has already proven, a wrong decision will blow up in their face....

..so interesting times ahead.

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Since the Reagan revolution when being rich was good and being poor was stupid, the gap in the US has widened alarmingly (for those with a moral conscience). For TeaPublicans it isn't wide enough -- hence tax and spending programs which are intended to widen the gap. That they are effectively sold represents the 'Mad Men' TV show marketing acumen.

In Southern Europe, it isn't so much the lack of progressive taxes (on the books), it is the long running and effective tax dodges followed (particularly, but not only) by the wealthy which strains the government budgets.

Germany demonstrates that one can have a good social welfare scheme and progressive taxation, PROVIDED you have a productive economy and a high level of tax compliance.

The US demonstrates that one can run a major deficit and still lack a decent social welfare scheme with a reasonably productive economy (when it is productive) and decent tax compliance, when the tax policy is heavily weighted to reduce the burden on the wealthy and particularly the most wealthy. The curious thing in the US is the flat out noise coming from the TeaPublicans regarding just how *overtaxed* the very wealthy are.

Barry, well we have spent the last 30 years or so proving trickle down economics does not work so it is time to do something else. I personally would like to see progressive taxation. If one were to accept the concept of diminishing marginal utility the even the 1% would feel little and the rest would be able to provide demand to spur growth.

Yup, that's the TeaPublican argument and the Reagan 'trickle down' argument. Hasn't worked for 30 years -- things have gotten worse and the middle class has been financially stagnant at best.

What I do disagree with is the ever widening gap between the top dogs & those on the lower rungs of the ladder.

If the top is to rise, then the ladder has to stretch to grow. The bottom is rather well established and isn't going to be lifted, so the only way to grow is to have a greater disparity.

Chris, the US economy has grown a lot in the past 30 years (up to 2008 anyway), yet during those 'good times' the divide widened.

If the argument (based on American reality) is then that in good times the gap widens and in bad times it widens even more, then at some point the have nots will figure there might be a flaw in a system which victimizes them and either vote in new leaders or take to the streets. They are getting little incentive to be submissive.

Society has always had the haves and the have nots. The Middle Ages had Landowners and Serfs, the Romans had slaves etc.

In the good times with plenty of affluence, the haves give money to charities and the less well off, and the wealth divide closes. In austerity like now, the haves are able to maintain the wealth they've got, and the have nots can't, so the wealth divide gets greater. The longer the austerity lasts the greater the divide will become.

The question is, is there a point of no return?

Chris, no I am not *advocating* 'street action' I was in Greece in May 2011 and it was something of a mess.

I do think that the British approach to austerity is somewhat more considered than what Brussels was trying to impose on the south. Even so, the UK is staring at a double dip. Part of this is that in the UK, austerity also includes the military. Further, my understanding is that NHS got a huge influx of resources during the Blair years and much of that was absorbed inefficiently. So the UK has perhaps quite a bit more margin when going to austerity. Also, the UK has a tax structure which is includes more of a share at the top end than the US. All of these suggest the UK will handle things far better than the Eurozone.

The Eurozone has to do deal with vast economic and cultural differences in its various countries. That in itself is a major impediment to 'one size fits all'. It also has to deal with a rapidly aging population which impedes economic expansion as well. I suspect Europe is going to learn that level of wealth is going to slide -- broadly. The trick there is going to be to insure that the poor and elderly don't see themselves as the primary target of austerity. If they do, then in those countries at the sharp end of the stick, it would be unreasonable NOT to expect 'uncivil' reaction. After all, there are a LOT of poor and elderly in these countries.

I suspect your assessment is not really all that different.

In the good times with plenty of affluence, the haves give money to charities and the less well off, and the wealth divide closes.

American wealth:

During the economic expansion between 2002 and 2007, the income of the top 1% grew 10 times faster than the income of the bottom 90%. In this period 66% of total income gains went to the 1%, who in 2007 had a larger share of total income than at any time since 1928

Yup, that's the TeaPublican argument and the Reagan 'trickle down' argument. Hasn't worked for 30 years -- things have gotten worse and the middle class has been financially stagnant at best.

What I do disagree with is the ever widening gap between the top dogs & those on the lower rungs of the ladder.

If the top is to rise, then the ladder has to stretch to grow. The bottom is rather well established and isn't going to be lifted, so the only way to grow is to have a greater disparity.

It isn't an argument. It is reality. The disparity is an organic necessity. There is nothing that can be done to lift the bottom. You can't make zero skill jobs worth more. The bottom rung is fixed.

Sure you can throw cash at the poor, but it does not generate more wealth. The word is redistribute. But, it doesn't make anything. The question is how do you make more? Answer, the top has to grow. Not unlike a tree. The tree doesn't grow at the base, it grows at the tip.

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Gary, IMO bigger tops on the tree is not the answer, many, many more tops on the tree at least addresses the issue. In fact quite a few of our economic woes are being caused because the tree is top heavy and falling over.

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because the tree is top heavy and falling over.

If the roots are diseased, then the diameter of the canopy can be greater than that of the root ball, making it unstable. Happens in nature, happens elsewhere.

Chris over here I think the roots were basically healthy but they have been systematically starved. As an added component there is a not small part of the populace who were never part of the tree.

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Agreed

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But at the moment, the trees are getting plenty of water. Unfortunately, they're only getting the tops watered, leaving the roots to perish. Then it won't take long for the tree to collapse.

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