Europe today is running rather like the USA under the Articles of Confederation. They are finding out that doesn't work too well. Too much regional us vs. them. If they wish to survive their nation states are going to have to surrender more control to a central government. The central item being the nation states could not print money. They would have to live on a balanced budget. Only the central government could print money.

I don't think any of them are ready for that.

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Heck there are a fairly large number of Americans who would like to revert to the Articles of Confederation...

But yes, the differences between countries in Europe are significantly greater than the differences between the states -- not only language, but culture and norms, and economic systems. In the US, there were large differences of culture, norms, and economic systems -- in 1860....

Europe today is running rather like the USA under the Articles of Confederation. They are finding out that doesn't work too well. Too much regional us vs. them. If they wish to survive their nation states are going to have to surrender more control to a central government. The central item being the nation states could not print money. They would have to live on a balanced budget. Only the central government could print money.

I don't think any of them are ready for that.

But advocated by folks who's intellectual level is less than that of Tom Swift.

Barry, a take off IMO from Jonathan Swift.

Nick, here's a solution -- one I swear some Americans are seriously advocating -- eliminate health care for the poor and elderly. They die off a LOT faster, that reduces the pension costs big time as well. Voila, balanced budgets. I suppose free burial should be arranged though.

Cor-blimey, Baz; even I wouldn't advocate this....

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The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

Hmmn, seems that the Mekon has been given an ultimatum.....

Germany signals shift on "Redemption Fund"

I wonder, was it because of this?

Banking Sector could be wiped out

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Greece to soon run out of cash?

Socialising bank debt

I have a problem with this one.......

"In blatant violation of the Maastricht Treaty, the European commission has come forward with one bailout plan after another for Europe's distressed economies".

If correct, what was the point of it all & do the countries that actually said NO the 1st time around know this?

If not, it could be a way out.... :)

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Proof that the UK is not "unique" in having muppets in power....

EU in "Social Emergency" says EC Chief

German Finance minister says "Italy won't need bailout"

hmmm...which muppet to believe.....

Oliver "Please Sir, can I have some more?

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German Finance minister says "Italy won't need bailout"

What a load of "Buttocks"....do excuse the poor spelling here?

---

The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

Germany signals shift on "Redemption Fund"

Once Merkel goes over to join the majority think tank on this Euro bond idea
then this will signal end of game. This act will signal the end game to not
only the Euro but also the ECM too. Borosso is pushing hard on the scare tactics
simply because Brussels has run out of ideas on how to solve this financial
holocaust. They can't solve it for the end game was always going to be "default on debt"
and this is what will ultimately happen peace-meal throughout Europe and
possibly other countries around the world too, including America.

---

The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

Could the start of "The Beginning of the End" actually be Monday June 18th 2012?

Greece faces agonising election choice

"At the end of it all, though, there may be one contradiction they are unlikely to resolve. Regardless of who Greeks vote for on Sunday, the demands from the eurozone for an austerity programme that none of the parties believe in any more, at least in its current form, will remain.

In 1981, Greece's partners allowed it to join what is today termed a "union" in the hope it would nurture a fledgling democracy deeply scarred by years of civil war, divisive politics and military rule. But from next week, Greece could find its democratic process counting for very little in its struggle to stay in a eurozone that is far from united.

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Meanwhile at home......

Ben Dover, & kiss your ass goodbye

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Meanwhile at home......

Ben Dover, & kiss your ass goodbye

"A short sharp disaster would be better than the long-term damage done by years of stagnation".
Oh well, it looks like their gradually coming around to my way of thinking here, I knew I was right,
Keynesian philosophy wants putting where it belongs - once and for all - in the trash can...don't argue!!

---

The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

Meanwhile at home......

Ben Dover, & kiss your ass goodbye

"A short sharp disaster would be better than the long-term damage done by years of stagnation".
Oh well, it looks like their gradually coming around to my way of thinking here, I knew I was right,
Keynesian philosophy wants putting where it belongs - once and for all - in the trash can...don't argue!!

The Treasury is trying hard to resist the temptation to wish things would get worse. There are plenty on the Conservative side who are beginning to think that whatever the dangers, a sudden, cathartic moment which saw Greece or others ejected from the eurozone, or even a disorderly break-up of the single currency, would be better than the long-term damage done by years of stagnation. Better a short, sharp disaster now, than one that goes on and on. Mr Osborne understands too well the appeal of such a logic. “A total meltdown is a very risky thing to wish for,” one ally says. “Once you start to look at the implications, it’s quite terrifying.” It’s for that reason the Chancellor has decided – reluctantly – to urge the Europeans on towards some kind of fiscal union that might bring stability to the euro. “It may stick in the throat because we don’t really believe in it, but any hard-headed analysis tells you it’s the right thing to do.”

An interesting interpretation of that paragraph.

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Well, the sort of austerity folks are willing to push for in Greece might well do just that. Currently access to life saving medications in Greece for those without the cash is increasingly difficult...

Nick, here's a solution -- one I swear some Americans are seriously advocating -- eliminate health care for the poor and elderly. They die off a LOT faster, that reduces the pension costs big time as well. Voila, balanced budgets. I suppose free burial should be arranged though.

Cor-blimey, Baz; even I wouldn't advocate this....

There is a presumption here -- that it will be a short/sharp disaster rather than a long/prolonged disaster. I suspect some of the 'make the Euro work' crowd perceive this as a likely scenario which is why they are trying to avoid it. Of course I'm sure the experts here are far more attuned to the financial realities than politicians and bureaucrats.

From my vantage point, frankly I am not sure which scenario is more likely.

I'd note also, along the lines of my previous post regarding budget balance solutions, that the short/sharp OR long/prolonged will likely kill off some extra poor and elderly folks and health care access gets limited by the disaster (short or long). Of course if the number is large enough, that will certainly help national budgets.....

Meanwhile at home......

Ben Dover, & kiss your ass goodbye

"A short sharp disaster would be better than the long-term damage done by years of stagnation".
Oh well, it looks like their gradually coming around to my way of thinking here, I knew I was right,
Keynesian philosophy wants putting where it belongs - once and for all - in the trash can...don't argue!!

Barry, IMO the industrial countries do not have the political will to make the economic sacrifices in terms of consumption or the will to make the gains from globalization more evenly spread, therefore I feel we are in for a long deep downturn. Those living in gated communities with armed guards will probably be oblivious the rest will have to deal with a second world reality.

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betreger, here is something to consider though, if Americans were to make sacrifices in terms of consumption that too would adversely effect not only the US economy, but also that of China and other countries that depend on exports to fuel their economies.

betreger, here is something to consider though, if Americans were to make sacrifices in terms of consumption that too would adversely effect not only the US economy, but also that of China and other countries that depend on exports to fuel their economies.

Exactly. That's why a resolution is needed damned quick so that everyone can get on with recovering, both as individuals & as nations.

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There is a presumption here -- that it will be a short/sharp disaster rather than a long/prolonged disaster. I suspect some of the 'make the Euro work' crowd perceive this as a likely scenario which is why they are trying to avoid it. Of course I'm sure the experts here are far more attuned to the financial realities than politicians and bureaucrats.

Glad you used the word "Experts" rather than geniuses. The only good genius is a dead one, for the simple fact is that they have stopped learning. so in the context of your post, we are indeed experts - As for the Politicians & Beaurocrats, they must be geniuses as they're not learning, especially from the past!.

From my vantage point, frankly I am not sure which scenario is more likely.

I'd note also, along the lines of my previous post regarding budget balance solutions, that the short/sharp OR long/prolonged will likely kill off some extra poor and elderly folks and health care access gets limited by the disaster (short or long). Of course if the number is large enough, that will certainly help national budgets.....

You have to be cruel to be kind. That's going to happen anyway you cut it, so the quicker the issue is resolved, the less that will die.

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Sirius -- we can all agree, the quicker this is resolved the better. But what sort of resolution and which one will result in 'quicker'. Frankly, it's a dart board being tossed at over the should facing the other way without even a mirror to guide the shot.

I see you agree that 'people will die'. One question to consider is, will the resolution result in thinning out the existing safety net resulting in an ongoing higher mortality rate for the poor and elderly. As I noted, while folks are not squarely advocating this -- even in the 'we don't care about the poor and elderly' crowd in the US, a number of their suggestions present this approach implicitly.

In the US, those that advocate these sorts of plans also hold continued increases in the defense budget sacrosanct. Perhaps the thinking is to help reduce the 'excess poor and elderly' problem globally.