Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects, Environment, etc part III

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Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
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Message 1324012 - Posted: 3 Jan 2013, 5:31:06 UTC - in response to Message 1324001.  

And that would be cleaner than what is currently being done.

But not clean enough.

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Message 1324111 - Posted: 3 Jan 2013, 14:13:01 UTC - in response to Message 1324012.  
Last modified: 3 Jan 2013, 14:21:32 UTC

And that would be cleaner than what is currently being done.

But not clean enough.


Most of the fossil fuel generation currently comes on during prime(day) time.
True it is not clean enough. That is what we need those windmills for on those cold windy nights.

Oh yes, and hydro electric can save their capacity until night time.. and so on.. and so on.. and so on...

Flywheel Storage There are ways to store electricity, and this is one of many.

Again heat can be generated during excess capacity( heat rocks/metal/concrete/whatever) and can be used to generate steam to power generation when needed.

So there really is room for everyone to have solar, and giant solar/wind farms.

What we do not have room for is more fossils.
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Message 1324230 - Posted: 3 Jan 2013, 17:24:06 UTC
Last modified: 3 Jan 2013, 17:26:47 UTC

A few local (UK) consequences for a little anti-fossils pollution motivation:


Met Office: 2012 was UK's second wettest year on record

... Most areas were affected by the extreme weather, with thousands of homes flooded and farmers struggling to grow crops in the saturated soil.

The latest data comes as analysis says the frequency of extreme rainfall in the UK may be increasing. ...

... "The trend towards more extreme rainfall events is one we are seeing around the world, in countries such as India and China, and now potentially here in the UK," ...

... This drastic change was largely attributed to a shift in the position of the jet stream...



Second wettest year in graphics

... In 2012, the jet stream was further south than usual during the summer months, bringing wet and cold weather to much of the country. ...


Extreme rainfall in UK 'increasing'

... Scientists say that as the world has warmed by 0.7C, the atmosphere is able to hold 4% more moisture, which means more potential rain. ...


... And the extent of ice cover across the Arctic in part influences the moisture and heat flow there that then sets the high altitude jet stream on its meanders...

What next as we very soon hit zero Arctic ice in summer?...


("Told you so" is NOT a good scenario... :-( )

All on our only one planet,
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Message 1324243 - Posted: 3 Jan 2013, 17:39:25 UTC - in response to Message 1324127.  

Chris no one is recommending a single panel on a home. The inverter would cost several times over the panel and it just would not make sense.

20 panels at a time? Now that could have a significant impact on someones electric bill. Keep in mind 1 watt*average peak sun*365/1000=KWH per year, typical life expectancy of the panels 20-30 years. At my current high end rate of approx $.33USD per KWH.. it is not hard to make a case for them.

Wind is another matter, and in urban/suburban areas it is difficult to place, though not impossible. There is of course the assumption when trying to get a permit that you want to install 5MW giant towers, when even a 300-500 watt(less than 5 ft diameter) could easily be installed on most roof tops with minimal to no bad effects on your neighbors.

Home wind for many is simply not an option.
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Message 1324248 - Posted: 3 Jan 2013, 17:48:24 UTC - in response to Message 1324111.  

Flywheel Storage There are ways to store electricity, and this is one of many.

Largest plant 20MW. Single nuclear plant 950-1300MW. I think you have a scale issue here. Also how long can this energy be stored before it all leaks away? Or are you attempting to deny friction. Heat storage has the same issues. Storage as gravity or chemical does not.


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Message 1324262 - Posted: 3 Jan 2013, 18:20:48 UTC - in response to Message 1324248.  

If you note the photos of that plant it appears to be approx. 5 acres.
Friction would be a factor on the flywheel storage, not an overwhelming factor but a factor. For heat storage it is a matter of insulation. a single LARGE object takes a long time to cool. converting to gravity(pumping liquids up I presume? or hoisting large objects to drop later?) does have waste energy involved as well. As does charging batteries(chemical).

But ALL of these methods can and do work.
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Message 1324405 - Posted: 3 Jan 2013, 22:56:23 UTC - in response to Message 1324262.  

If you note the photos of that plant it appears to be approx. 5 acres.
Friction would be a factor on the flywheel storage, not an overwhelming factor but a factor. ...

Those units operate in a vacuum and with magnetic levitation bearings that makes the friction losses negligible. Impressive stuff. Rather neat and effective.

You can even get them now for replacing large sized battery-backup UPSes.

Rather good and quite a game changer...


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Message 1324408 - Posted: 3 Jan 2013, 23:01:01 UTC - in response to Message 1324230.  

A few local (UK) consequences for a little anti-fossils pollution motivation:

And a rather obvious wider consequence previously foretold:


Delay climate mitigation, escalate the costs

... Which would hurt less: a global carbon price of $US20 now, or a $US100 carbon price in 2020?...

... If mitigation steps aren’t taken, the researchers say, global annual emissions by 2020 will reach 55 gigatons of CO2 each year. At that point, IIASA’s Keywan Riahi says, “you would need to shut down a coal power plant each week for ten years if you still wanted to reach the two-degree Celsius target”.

“Fundamentally, it’s a question of how much society is willing to risk,”...




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Message 1324453 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 2:04:24 UTC

Here are some other thoughts,solar can also provide heat, insulation is a 1 time

cost, better windows are becoming more affordable,there are a lot of appliances

that run on 12v for the rv or caravan market that can be run directly off of

solar panels with no power inverter.
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Message 1324455 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 2:12:28 UTC - in response to Message 1324408.  

if you still wanted to reach the two-degree Celsius target”.


There is no established causality between CO-2 concentration and air temperature on Earth.
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Message 1324465 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 4:43:53 UTC - in response to Message 1324405.  

If you note the photos of that plant it appears to be approx. 5 acres.
Friction would be a factor on the flywheel storage, not an overwhelming factor but a factor. ...

Those units operate in a vacuum and with magnetic levitation bearings that makes the friction losses negligible. Impressive stuff. Rather neat and effective.

You can even get them now for replacing large sized battery-backup UPSes.

Rather good and quite a game changer...

A few of orders of magnitude to small to be "a game changer" I mean, you aren't going to be able to store much energy when 5 of them fit on a single flat bed trailer.

I was looking for a total storage capacity for a unit but couldn't find it. I see the worlds largest plant was shown as 20MW, but that is load. Didn't say how long it could keep that up. Also it was being talked about for phase synchronization. That is only very momentary in comparison with storing several hours of energy for use when the sun don't shine.

Practical lesson. Gravity stores energy in moving a mass. A rotating object stores its energy in a moving mass. What is the weight of the water that is released by an hour for a medium hydroelectric dam? What is the weight limit of a single flatbed trailer? Are we getting the picture yet?

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Message 1324539 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 11:23:30 UTC - in response to Message 1324465.  

Gary the single article did not address it. Some simple additional research showed the storage capacity at 5MWH.
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Message 1324557 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 12:12:25 UTC - in response to Message 1324455.  

if you still wanted to reach the two-degree Celsius target”.

There is no established causality between CO-2 concentration and air temperature on Earth.

I guess against all science and rationality, you fall into the denialist believers staunchly clinging on as described in the series of articles on:

Climate Denial


Sorry, but Human forced climate change is not just a game of politics... There are consequences for everyone regardless of political games.


All on our only one planet,
Martin



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Message 1324588 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 14:43:52 UTC - in response to Message 1324539.  

Gary the single article did not address it. Some simple additional research showed the storage capacity at 5MWH.

Okay numbers. Capacity 5MWH divided by Output 20MW = Time 15 minutes storage.

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Message 1324611 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 15:47:01 UTC - in response to Message 1324248.  
Last modified: 4 Jan 2013, 15:47:55 UTC

Flywheel Storage There are ways to store electricity, and this is one of many.

Largest plant 20MW. Single nuclear plant 950-1300MW. I think you have a scale issue here. Also how long can this energy be stored before it all leaks away? Or are you attempting to deny friction. Heat storage has the same issues. Storage as gravity or chemical does not.



When I first saw this post about flywheels I thought that it was for making power. But it is not. Its for regulating frequency on the grid. If what I read about the reasons for going to flywheel storage is that it is faster and green. my take is that it gives a power company almost instant response to a demand for power. It keeps the frquency and voltage up until they can fire up a more traditinal generator on line. its also a growing big business. I have included a link on for frequency regulation
[/quote]

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Message 1324616 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 16:08:00 UTC - in response to Message 1324611.  

Flywheel Storage There are ways to store electricity, and this is one of many.

Largest plant 20MW. Single nuclear plant 950-1300MW. I think you have a scale issue here. Also how long can this energy be stored before it all leaks away? Or are you attempting to deny friction. Heat storage has the same issues. Storage as gravity or chemical does not.



When I first saw this post about flywheels I thought that it was for making power. But it is not. Its for regulating frequency on the grid. If what I read about the reasons for going to flywheel storage is that it is faster and green. my take is that it gives a power company almost instant response to a demand for power. It keeps the frquency and voltage up until they can fire up a more traditinal generator on line. its also a growing big business. I have included a link on for frequency regulation


And even if there is only a few tens of minutes storage that can be released, that instant always available release means that big savings can be made by no longer needing fossil power running on hot idle standby, or needing online generators to be run with expensively wasted unutilised capacity to give demand fluctuation margin.

Even a 5 minutes max load will give big savings to save running up a power station just for every TV commercial break! (Coffee/tea making demand.)


There are many ways...

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Message 1324619 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 16:30:18 UTC

I think its a great idea using flywheels to keep the frequency and voltage up. Power companys must know when they get the most peak loads during the day. i can see this saving them a lot of money. Not that it will be passed on to the consumer though:(

Another use would be for the home. Im sure it is not cost effective yet but a small flywheel to handle short duration brown outs or power outages befoe a home generator kicks on.
[/quote]

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Message 1324620 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 16:34:54 UTC - in response to Message 1324616.  

And even if there is only a few tens of minutes storage that can be released, that instant always available release means that big savings can be made by no longer needing fossil power running on hot idle standby, or needing online generators to be run with expensively wasted unutilised capacity to give demand fluctuation margin.

Yes get 0.01% closer to the goal, wave you hands claim you have the solution to all ills and scream make it so!

The real problem is several orders of magnitude larger. Can't waste time on stuff that will never matter in the solution.


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Message 1324635 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 16:59:01 UTC - in response to Message 1324620.  

And even if there is only a few tens of minutes storage that can be released, that instant always available release means that big savings can be made by no longer needing fossil power running on hot idle standby, or needing online generators to be run with expensively wasted unutilised capacity to give demand fluctuation margin.

Yes get 0.01% closer to the goal, wave you hands claim you have the solution to all ills and scream make it so!

The real problem is several orders of magnitude larger. Can't waste time on stuff that will never matter in the solution.



the real problem is getting it moving at ALL.. being bogged down by oil/coal is the answer nonsense.

One foot in front of the other starts any journey.
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Message 1324658 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 18:34:30 UTC
Last modified: 4 Jan 2013, 18:49:09 UTC

As some of you have now realised flywheels are part of no-brake power systems, just an alternative to battery UPS systems.

They are not new, and I know of one that was in use from the 60's for NATO comms, and had a catastrophic failure in the 70's. Destroyed the building it was in, along with the standby generator it was working with and several cars and a minibus. Luckily no-one was killed or injured.

You also have to factor in power required to keep flywheel spinning 24/7/365.
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Message boards : Politics : Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects, Environment, etc part III


 
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