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Message 1688054 - Posted: 5 Jun 2015, 10:35:18 UTC - in response to Message 1687801.  

Everything we consume is genetically modified by selective breeding.

Largely yes.

However, there is a vast difference and a great difference in health and nutrition between natural selection and artificial breeding selection to boost positive natural traits...

As compared to the deliberately toxic artificial stuff and outright market manipulation perpetrated in the name of GM.
Deliberately toxic? Got any evidence for that?
Why would any company produce deliberately toxic foodstuffs? What would they have to gain? Killing off the customers by poisoning them is not good business practice.

So far as I know, there have been no positive examples of GM-food.
Norman Borlaug, a.k.a. the man who saved a billion lives, might disagree with you there!
However, there are repeated examples of the environment and farming being adversely affected by the agribusiness use of GM... "GM superweeds" and environmental destruction are just two examples before we even look at what we then get to eat with the 'added pesticides'...
[citation needed]

Our world is what we make it...
Martin
So lets make it better through science.
Life on earth is the global equivalent of not storing things in the fridge.
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Message 1688142 - Posted: 5 Jun 2015, 15:35:10 UTC - in response to Message 1688054.  

As compared to the deliberately toxic artificial stuff and outright market manipulation perpetrated in the name of GM.
Deliberately toxic? Got any evidence for that?
Why would any company produce deliberately toxic foodstuffs? What would they have to gain? Killing off the customers by poisoning them is not good business practice.

Simon, you have to understand Martin is a FUD spreader. He didn't say toxic to humans. He just said toxic, and it is to bugs.
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Message 1688148 - Posted: 5 Jun 2015, 15:53:58 UTC - in response to Message 1688142.  

Simon, you have to understand Martin is a FUD spreader. He didn't say toxic to humans. He just said toxic, and it is to bugs.

Well, yeah, it would be!
He probably uses non-lethal mouse traps too.
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Message 1714375 - Posted: 17 Aug 2015, 10:48:47 UTC - in response to Message 1688148.  
Last modified: 17 Aug 2015, 10:50:48 UTC

... He just said toxic, and it is to bugs.

... He probably uses non-lethal mouse traps too.

How about toxic to the environment? The very same environment in which we live also?...

We really are pissing in our own bath water.

And note that mice have their place and their part to play in our ecosphere. The "must kill all animal and bug life" mentality really does look to be a very worrying and unhealthy ignorant city dwellers xenophobic view.

Which follows on with all the big industry feeding that phobia for rampant profits...



Going back to the example of how the big agribusiness seems to be intent on poisoning all our fields such that no animal life can exist, we have this ongoing sorry tale to sting us all:


UK suspends ban on pesticides linked to serious harm in bees

Farmers will be able to use blacklisted pesticides linked to serious harm in bees after the UK government temporarily lifted an EU ban.

Opponents called the decision “scandalous” and criticised the government’s secrecy, which The Guardian revealed has included gagging its own expert advisers...

... Barry Gardiner, Labour’s shadow Defra minister, said: “I have written to environment secretary Liz Truss challenging her to release whatever scientific evidence she considers could possibly justify this decision. Public confidence cannot be maintained if she refuses.” The decision was made public after parliament ended for the summer, making scrutiny by MPs impossible, he said...



Bee-harming pesticide firms took part in key meeting on their ban

Pesticide manufacturers, Bayer and Syngenta were involved in a meeting over whether to lift a ban on neonicotinoids in the UK, previously suppressed minutes reveal...


UK government gags advisers in bees and pesticides row

... The government has gagged its own pesticide advisers, after they refused to back an application by the National Farmers Union to lift a ban on bee-harming chemicals. The gag is intended to prevent campaigners lobbying ministers on the issue...


Bees feeding on fungicide-dosed flowers develop health issues, studies say

While insecticides are a known deadly threat, two studies find that bees exposed to fungicides are smaller, sickly and declining in ‘chemical cocktail’ farmlands...

... Those methods came under criticism even as fungicides became steadily more popular around the world, with sales rising from $8bn in 2005 to a predicted $21bn in 2017. Fungicide pollution has been detected across the US; exposures are routine in bees, and some researchers have started to wonder whether they might contribute to declines in both honeybees and in wild, native bees...



White House makes bid to save honeybees but ignores toxic pesticides

Plan makes millions of acres of federal land more bee-friendly but...

... It does not ban the use of any form of toxic pesticides, despite a large body of scientific research showing many of them – specifically neonicotinoids, or “neonics” – to be closely linked to widespread bee life loss...



UK drew wrong conclusion from its neonicotinoids study, scientist says

Reanalysis of a Food and Environment Agency study may provide first conclusive evidence that neonicotinoids pesticides are a key factor in bee decline, despite it originally being used to support the opposite...


Who is winning the PR battle over neonicotinoids?

Bee campaigners scored a victory in the German courts, but chemical companies continue to fight the European Commission ban...


'Suppressed' EU report could have banned pesticides worth billions

As many as 31 pesticides with a value running into billions of pounds could have been banned because of potential health risks, if a blocked EU paper on hormone-mimicking chemicals had been acted upon...


Big business and our planet and ourselves be damned...

Tragically damning!


All in our only one toxic corrupt world,
Martin
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Message 1714511 - Posted: 17 Aug 2015, 16:21:39 UTC - in response to Message 1714375.  

... He just said toxic, and it is to bugs.

... He probably uses non-lethal mouse traps too.

How about toxic to the environment? The very same environment in which we live also?...
Wow, 2+ months to respond ...

Bugs are the environment. See how a FUD spreader uses his words of the obvious to instill fear. An item intended to kill bugs works, so it changes the environment and becomes this terrible uncertain danger to be feared.

Misapplication or not following the directions on the label, that might be an issue. But he can't generate FUD with that, as there is no uncertainty, hence no way to deceive.
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Message 1715616 - Posted: 19 Aug 2015, 23:50:02 UTC - in response to Message 1714511.  

[quote]... Bugs are the environment. ... An item intended to kill bugs works, so it changes the environment ...

Misapplication or not following the directions on the label, that might be an issue. ...

And so how are humans so magically immune from a chemically toxic changed environment?

Do you really trust the labels given by big agribusiness for the food you eat and the environment their chemicals have wrought?


Note how farming and the environment works very well without such chemicals...

All in our only one world,
Martin
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Message 1715618 - Posted: 19 Aug 2015, 23:54:47 UTC

For a parallel thread:


How can our food Marketing have got it so badly wrong for our good health?


We need to learn what 2,000 calories a day looks like to prevent diabetes

Diabetes is threatening to bankrupt the NHS after a 60% rise in cases in the past 10 years...

... Diabetes is a killer and a major cause of significant health problems: kidney failure, stroke, heart attacks and blindness. And it’s expensive. Diabetes treatment accounts for 10% of the annual NHS budget ... And the devil is that it is often – though not always – a preventable disease. The single biggest preventable factor is obesity....

... And we’re going to have to stop eating all the time. It’s not just what we eat (although clearly sugary drinks and calorie laden muffins are not helpful). It’s the way we have become a nation of constant grazers. Schools need to teach pupils what 2,000 calories a day looks and feels like. It means a breakfast of toast or cereal, a sandwich and zero calorie drink (like water) at lunch and a supper of protein, veg and a portion of carbohydrate like some boiled potatoes. Some fruit and a yoghurt, and you’re basically done for the day. Who eats like that nowadays?

The messages need to be clear and unambiguous. Public health policies and political intervention are all very well. But individuals need to know how to say no to the constant offers of food and sugary drinks that surround us.




We are what we eat...

All in our only one world,
Martin
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Message 1715993 - Posted: 20 Aug 2015, 16:34:58 UTC - in response to Message 1715616.  

Do you really trust the labels given by big agribusiness for the food you eat and the environment their chemicals have wrought?

Do you trust the labels on free software?
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Message 1716166 - Posted: 20 Aug 2015, 22:21:58 UTC - in response to Message 1715616.  
Last modified: 20 Aug 2015, 22:24:56 UTC

... Bugs are the environment. ... An item intended to kill bugs works, so it changes the environment ...

Misapplication or not following the directions on the label, that might be an issue. ...

And so how are humans so magically immune from a chemically toxic changed environment?

Do you really trust the labels given by big agribusiness for the food you eat and the environment their chemicals have wrought?


Note how farming and the environment works very well without such chemicals...



Are our bees being poisoned to an early death?...

"Oh yes they are...", "Oh no they are not...". Depending on who you can believe:



Pesticides linked to bee decline for first time in a countrywide field study

A new study provides the first evidence of a link between neonicotinoid pesticides and escalating honeybee colony losses on a landscape level.

The study found the increased use of a pesticide, which is linked to causing serious harm in bees worldwide, as a seed treatment on oilseed rape in England and Wales over an 11 year period correlated with higher bee mortality during that time.

The research, published in Nature scientific reports on Thursday, combined large-scale pesticide usage and yield observations from oilseed rape with data on honeybee loses between 2000 and 2010. ...

... The study, also found that famers who used seed pesticide treatments reduced the number of applications of other insecticides, but that the long-term benefits of treating oil seed rape seeds with imidacloprid on crop yields were negligible.

The honeybee is the most important commercial pollinator, globally responsible for pollinating at least 90% of commercial crops...

... "The pesticide industry can’t continue to maintain that there is no effect of their products on honey bees ..." he said.

But Julian Little, a spokesman for Bayer Cropscience, manufacturer of imidacloprid, said the study’s findings were "at odds with several other field studies..."



Also for that seed treatment at least, long term useless in any case!

Who are you going to believe?


All in our only one world,
Martin
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Message 1721064 - Posted: 2 Sep 2015, 0:39:06 UTC - in response to Message 1688054.  
Last modified: 2 Sep 2015, 0:45:58 UTC

Everything we consume is genetically modified by selective breeding.

Largely yes.

However, there is a vast difference and a great difference in health and nutrition between natural selection and artificial breeding selection to boost positive natural traits...

As compared to the deliberately toxic artificial stuff and outright market manipulation perpetrated in the name of GM.

Deliberately toxic? Got any evidence for that?
Why would any company produce deliberately toxic foodstuffs? What would they have to gain? Killing off the customers by poisoning them is not good business practice.

Lets see?...

Just for a small list:


The 10 Most Toxic Fruits and Vegetables

... When it comes to pesticides, fungicides, and other chemicals, all crops are by no means equal. Here are the 10 nonorganic fruits and veggies that top the Environmental Working Group's 2014 list of worst offenders:...


Pesticides on Food

... The overwhelming majority of pesticides used on U.S. farms do not show up on our food. And yet,

93% of Americans tested by the CDC had metabolites of chlorpyrifos — a neurotoxic insecticide — in their urine. Banned from home use because of its risks to children, chlorpyrifos is part of a family of pesticides (organophosphates) linked to ADHD.

99% of Americans tested positive for DDT degradants, even though DDT hasn't been used in the U.S. since 1972. Women who were exposed to DDT as girls are 5 times more likely to develop breast cancer.

How is it that these two pesticides are found in over 90% of Americans? Through the food we eat...



The Problem with Pesticides

... Since the publication of Rachel Carson’s landmark 1962 book Silent Spring, the impacts of pesticides on the environment have been well known. Pesticides are toxic to living organisms. Some can accumulate in water systems, pollute the air, and in some cases have other dramatic environmental effects. Scientists are discovering new threats to the environment that are equally disturbing.

Pesticide use can damage agricultural land by harming beneficial insect species, soil microorganisms, and worms which naturally limit pest populations and maintain soil health;

Weakening plant root systems and immune systems;

Reducing concentrations of essential plant nutrients in the soil such nitrogen and phosphorous.

The Myth of Safety: A Failed Regulatory System

Despite what government agencies and corporations tell you, pesticide products currently on the market are not safe, even when they are used legally. There are many flaws in the way that pesticides are registered and in our political process that allows corporations to influence pesticide policy to allow the continued use of their poisonous products.

Even if we know that a pesticide causes severe health and environmental impacts, including cancer and genetic damage, it may still be allowed for use...



EWG's 2015 Shopper's Guide to Pesticides in Produce

Nearly two-thirds of the 3,015 produce samples tested by the U.S. Department of Agriculture in 2013 contained pesticide residues - a surprising finding in the face of soaring consumer demand for food without agricultural chemicals...

... Pesticides persisted on fruits and vegetables tested by USDA, even when they were washed and, in some cases, peeled...



Pesticide poisoning

A pesticide poisoning occurs when chemicals intended to control a pest affect non-target organisms such as humans, wildlife, or bees. There are three types of pesticide poisoning ... The third type of poisoning is a long-term low-level exposure, which individuals are exposed to from sources such as pesticide residues in food as well as contact with pesticide residues in the air, water, soil, sediment, food materials, plants and animals.


Silent Spring

Silent Spring is an environmental science book written by Rachel Carson and published in 1962. The book documented the detrimental effects on the environment—particularly on birds—of the indiscriminate use of pesticides. Carson accused the chemical industry of spreading disinformation and public officials of accepting industry claims unquestioningly...



... And more recently, we now have ever more bees being silenced...

FUD from the agribusiness giants? Are there parallels with the FUD campaigns from such as the Big Tobacco giants and the Dirty Fossil Fuels industries?...



So far as I know, there have been no positive examples of GM-food.
Norman Borlaug, a.k.a. the man who saved a billion lives, might disagree with you there!

I'm surprised that noone has picked up on that blackening of some fantastic Nobel winning work! All completely without any artificial GM.

See: Norman Borlaug: Wheat research in Mexico

All just a question of determination, good ideas, and good breeding!


Lets make our world better through science rather than destroy the world by the rape of agribusiness gone economically and agribusiness MAD.


Our world is what we make it...
Martin
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Message 1721073 - Posted: 2 Sep 2015, 1:21:34 UTC - in response to Message 1721064.  

93% of Americans tested by the CDC had metabolites of chlorpyrifos — a neurotoxic insecticide — in their urine. Banned from home use because of its risks to children, chlorpyrifos is part of a family of pesticides (organophosphates) linked to ADHD.

99% of Americans tested positive for DDT degradants, even though DDT hasn't been used in the U.S. since 1972. Women who were exposed to DDT as girls are 5 times more likely to develop breast cancer.

How is it that these two pesticides are found in over 90% of Americans? Through the food we eat...

No, those were sold to Americans to get rid of bugs inside the home. They sprayed themselves with them. Didn't come from commercially grown food. Note the phrase "banned from home use" and ask when that happened? After they found a problem?

P.S. Speaking of organophosphates http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/17/us/the-battle-over-the-medfly.html?_r=0
Nor were they impressed when a state official named B. T. Collins — speaking of whimsical — drank a glass of diluted malathion in 1981 to demonstrate that it caused no harm beyond perhaps upsetting his stomach a tad. (Mr. Collins died 12 years later at a fairly young age, 52, but of a heart attack, not of malathion-induced complications.)

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Message 1721230 - Posted: 2 Sep 2015, 10:36:02 UTC - in response to Message 1721073.  

P.S. Speaking of organophosphates http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/17/us/the-battle-over-the-medfly.html?_r=0
Nor were they impressed when a state official named B. T. Collins — speaking of whimsical — drank a glass of diluted malathion in 1981 to demonstrate that it caused no harm beyond perhaps upsetting his stomach a tad. (Mr. Collins died 12 years later at a fairly young age, 52, but of a heart attack, not of malathion-induced complications.)

Like this man https://youtu.be/ZssCEZKX-ds
In Sweden, Foss is known that in a television interview in 1975 drinking the herbicide Hormoslyr. Inaccurate rumors claims that Foss would have died (of cancer) shortly after this. This was not the case; Foss lived another 32 years, and died in 2007 at the age of almost 83 years .

But don't try this at home!
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Message 1721313 - Posted: 2 Sep 2015, 15:23:52 UTC - in response to Message 1721073.  

Still industrially all in our environment and still very much like a game of smoking cigarettes...


How do you want to live in our only one world?...

All on our only one planet,
Martin
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Message 1721323 - Posted: 2 Sep 2015, 15:36:44 UTC - in response to Message 1721313.  

Still industrially all in our environment and still very much like a game of smoking cigarettes...

How do you want to live in our only one world?...

I want to live in a world where FUD isn't spread.

Fire, it is a horrible danger. Look at how many people are burned each year. Look at how many people have smoke inhalation each year. We must ban fire.

Change the word fire to any topic you have posted on. Same FUD, different day.
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Message 1724000 - Posted: 9 Sep 2015, 22:41:39 UTC - in response to Message 1721323.  

... I want to live in a world where FUD isn't spread.

Fire, it is a horrible danger. Look at how many people are burned each year...

Just like all the FUD about the American fondness for firing guns at each other each year?

How many fatalities in the great peace of the USA?

How gunfire injuries??


FUD indeed? Guess that depends on your cult and religion and your trolling...

Only in the USA!
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Message 1724002 - Posted: 9 Sep 2015, 22:45:18 UTC

Does this rate as one of the greatest slimings of our modern era of processed food and industrial intensive farming?...


Scientists find CJD resistance gene

Researchers have identified a gene that might make people resistant to the brain eating disease CJD.

The study is part of an effort to find ways of combating a possible epidemic caused by eating BSE infected beef in the 1980s...

... There had been fears that tens of thousands of people would die following the emergence of a new form of vCJD in the 1990s from eating BSE infected beef. So far 177 people are thought to have died from the disease in the UK although one in 2,000 people are thought to be carrying the infection.

...

"Thirty thousand people are silently carrying the disease and we don't know whether they will carry on carrying the disease without developing symptoms or go on to develop the disease".

Those with kuru disease take 50 years to develop the disease after they have become infected. If the same is true of vCJD, says Prof Collinge, it could be several decades before we will know the full extent of BSE exposure"




We are the food that we eat...

Only in our only one world,
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Message 1727636 - Posted: 21 Sep 2015, 22:02:55 UTC - in response to Message 1721064.  

...
So far as I know, there have been no positive examples of GM-food.
Norman Borlaug, a.k.a. the man who saved a billion lives, might disagree with you there!

I'm surprised that noone has picked up on that blackening of some fantastic Nobel winning work! All completely without any artificial GM.

See: Norman Borlaug: Wheat research in Mexico

All just a question of determination, good ideas, and good breeding!


Lets make our world better through science rather than destroy the world by the rape of agribusiness gone economically and agribusiness MAD.

This gives an interesting list of the areas where the peddling of GM-food production has gained some penetration and where so far it is still being rebuffed as too controversial or as simply too unhealthy in whatever way:


GM crop-growing banned in Northern Ireland

... the relatively small size of farms in Northern Ireland could create "potential difficulties if we were to seek to keep GM and non-GM crops separate".

He said the costs of maintaining separateness could be expensive and impractical. "Further, we are rightly proud of our natural environment and rich biodiversity," he said...



Some things are worth defending against the ravages of big uncaring polluting Big Agribusiness!


Our world is what we make it...
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Message 1727640 - Posted: 21 Sep 2015, 22:30:07 UTC - in response to Message 1727636.  

Some things are worth defending against the ravages of big uncaring polluting Big Agribusiness!

You know it used to be that when Dad died he could will the family farm on to the sons. Then some fool bleeding hearts went and spent far too much tax money. They looked to a death tax, (inheritance tax) to make up the difference. Today the family farm has to be sold off to "big uncaring polluting Big Agribusiness!" to pay the tax bill. Makes for a great policy!
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Message 1727664 - Posted: 22 Sep 2015, 0:22:16 UTC - in response to Message 1727640.  

You know it used to be that when Dad died he could will the family farm on to the sons. Then some fool bleeding hearts went and spent far too much tax money. They looked to a death tax, (inheritance tax) to make up the difference. Today the family farm has to be sold off to "big uncaring polluting Big Agribusiness!" to pay the tax bill. Makes for a great policy!

Yes it does, the inheritance tax helps keep us from creating feudal estates. As 297902 noted most inheritances are not subject to it.
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Message 1727771 - Posted: 22 Sep 2015, 4:54:37 UTC - in response to Message 1727664.  
Last modified: 22 Sep 2015, 4:56:30 UTC

You know it used to be that when Dad died he could will the family farm on to the sons. Then some fool bleeding hearts went and spent far too much tax money. They looked to a death tax, (inheritance tax) to make up the difference. Today the family farm has to be sold off to "big uncaring polluting Big Agribusiness!" to pay the tax bill. Makes for a great policy!

Yes it does, the inheritance tax helps keep us from creating feudal estates. As 297902 noted most inheritances are not subject to it.

Today, not the case before 2001, remember the hated Bush tax cut! Up until then family farms got sold to pay the tax and big agribusiness was buying. (Big agribusiness is the feudal estate!) This period is when they cemented their monopolistic hold on farming. Today the family farm has to be sold because they can't produce cheap enough to compete, so they sell to big agribusiness to pay off the last bank loans and escape with a few pennies. 500 family farms have merged into one mega farm. The mega farm has to squeeze every penny out and they do with horrible long term farming practices because the current CEO can kick the can down the road to someone else. It isn't his family he is cheating with bad long term farming practices.

For the heck of it, just ran some numbers. Irrigated cropland is going for about $12,000/acre in the Central Valley. So a family farm of 160 acres comes in just shy of $2M on land alone. Add in a tractor and attachments, harvester, a couple of trucks, irrigation equipment, barn, and you will quickly get over today's $2.5M limit on estate tax. Now remember that the family house is also going to be part of the estate and now you are up to $3-5M. Don't forget the IRS wants cash PDQ. Not advocating tax policy, just telling you that in 2000 when the IRS wanted 55% of everything over $675K there was no way to pass a family farm on, it had to be sold. (Try getting a bank loan to pay tax!!!) Oh and don't forget there is something called capital gains tax that can come into play.
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