Independent Scotland

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Message 1196136 - Posted: 16 Feb 2012, 23:39:25 UTC - in response to Message 1196131.  
Last modified: 16 Feb 2012, 23:44:26 UTC

English as a nationality was forsaken so
to promote the idealism of everyone in the UK being British.

Oh you mean England decided to take over.

We accepted it
but Scotland could not they just would not melt into the great pot that
we call Great Britain.

Of course the conquering England accepted it as the Russians accepted it when it conquered all the countries around it and called it all the USSR.

England looked to the greater advancements that would
be gained from combining the four countries of the UK under one banner "Britain".

There we go; the USSR of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland.

Scotland for their part see it as being swamped rather than seeing it as gaining the right
of access to all the advantages of being part of a greater land mass and trading
nation.

I expect the Irish got swamped and left behind the ones who didn't want independence in the 'country' of Northern Ireland. Even the Russians didn't split neighboring countries into two.

One thing you will discover with striking regularity is that the vast amount of Scots
who leave Scotland and find work down south never end up moving back to Scotland again.

Really? I meet Scottish people all the time and have never noticed that they move in a southerly direction and never ever move northwards.

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Message 1196319 - Posted: 17 Feb 2012, 11:55:30 UTC - in response to Message 1196306.  

Nationality office


they had advised somebody there was no such thing as an English nationality


This is getting queerer and queerer. There is an England but no English?


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Message 1196335 - Posted: 17 Feb 2012, 14:06:11 UTC
Last modified: 17 Feb 2012, 14:08:31 UTC

I expect the Irish got swamped and left behind the ones who didn't want independence in the 'country' of Northern Ireland. Even the Russians didn't split neighboring countries into two.

Wasn't it religion that split Ireland, and also split Scotlands second city Glasgow.

Actually there are a lot of countries with splits, Belgium, the Nederlands, Italy, Lebanon, Palestine, Sudan to name a few. And most African states are split on tribal lines because the Europeans drew false boundaries.

England has almost always has been split, these days at Watford. But since the dark ages when it was Northumberland and the south. Then there was the war of the roses, between the Houses of York (south) and Lancaster (north). The civil war. The Industrial north and the mainly rural south, with London as the Banking centre.

edit] Probably why I'm such a mixed up kid, northern Father, southern Mother.
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Message 1196356 - Posted: 17 Feb 2012, 15:42:05 UTC - in response to Message 1196348.  

It all seems to boil down to legal terminology. In law, England is a Country not a Nation. Although I consider myself to be an Englishman, I'm not bothered about ticking British boxes on forms. If the Welsh and Scottish want to get their knickers in a twist about that, good luck to them, we are made or more sterner stuff.


That's very debatable! The main force behind the British Empire was its military forces which were mainly English officers & the actual fighting men were Irish, Scots & Welsh with a fair amount of Englishmen.

Thoroughout that history, there has been many instances of those officers being "Colonel Blimps" & this had continued right up to WWII, where the armed forces had managed to weed many of them out.

From that point of view I can understand why the Scots Welsh & Irish disliked the English, & probably still do to a certain extent.
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Message 1196362 - Posted: 17 Feb 2012, 16:12:50 UTC - in response to Message 1196356.  

It all seems to boil down to legal terminology. In law, England is a Country not a Nation. Although I consider myself to be an Englishman, I'm not bothered about ticking British boxes on forms. If the Welsh and Scottish want to get their knickers in a twist about that, good luck to them, we are made or more sterner stuff.


That's very debatable! The main force behind the British Empire was its military forces which were mainly English officers & the actual fighting men were Irish, Scots & Welsh with a fair amount of Englishmen.

Thoroughout that history, there has been many instances of those officers being "Colonel Blimps" & this had continued right up to WWII, where the armed forces had managed to weed many of them out.

From that point of view I can understand why the Scots Welsh & Irish disliked the English, & probably still do to a certain extent.

No idea where you get those idea's from. Most officers of the Welsh, Scotish and Irish regiments are from the indicated countries.
In the late 60's the unit I was with had small comms site within the camp of the 3rd Carabiniers and all their officers except the doctor and the paymster were Welsh. It might not have sounded like it, but that was because most of them were educated in private schools like Eton and Harrow etc.

And before that the CO of my previous unit definitely could have been described as a Capt Blimp, he never made Col. he was too thick to pass the staff exam.
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Message 1196388 - Posted: 17 Feb 2012, 17:13:00 UTC - in response to Message 1196362.  
Last modified: 17 Feb 2012, 17:13:35 UTC

No idea where you get those idea's from. Most officers of the Welsh, Scotish and Irish regiments are from the indicated countries.
In the late 60's the unit I was with had small comms site within the camp of the 3rd Carabiniers and all their officers except the doctor and the paymster were Welsh. It might not have sounded like it, but that was because most of them were educated in private schools like Eton and Harrow etc.

And before that the CO of my previous unit definitely could have been described as a Capt Blimp, he never made Col. he was too thick to pass the staff exam.


Not ideas but fact. You yourself confirm this...Capt Blimp? How did he get to Captain?

Education as far the the miliary goes does not prove a thing. Many a so called "Educated Officer" made serious errors of judgement that cost many lives. As WWI & II proved, there were many instances where the Senior & even junior NCO's saved many a situation.

One of the more famous "Educated" cock ups was Arnhem Sept 1944. The high command were aware of intelligence that suggested that it would not be as easy as Montgomery suggested - so what price Education?.

Saying that, the plan itself, if successful, would have ended the war earlier.
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Message 1196394 - Posted: 17 Feb 2012, 17:34:59 UTC - in response to Message 1196388.  

No idea where you get those idea's from. Most officers of the Welsh, Scotish and Irish regiments are from the indicated countries.
In the late 60's the unit I was with had small comms site within the camp of the 3rd Carabiniers and all their officers except the doctor and the paymster were Welsh. It might not have sounded like it, but that was because most of them were educated in private schools like Eton and Harrow etc.

And before that the CO of my previous unit definitely could have been described as a Capt Blimp, he never made Col. he was too thick to pass the staff exam.


Not ideas but fact. You yourself confirm this...Capt Blimp? How did he get to Captain?

Education as far the the miliary goes does not prove a thing. Many a so called "Educated Officer" made serious errors of judgement that cost many lives. As WWI & II proved, there were many instances where the Senior & even junior NCO's saved many a situation.

One of the more famous "Educated" cock ups was Arnhem Sept 1944. The high command were aware of intelligence that suggested that it would not be as easy as Montgomery suggested - so what price Education?.

Saying that, the plan itself, if successful, would have ended the war earlier.

But that is not just a British thing. The American commander Major General John P. Lucas at Anzio stayed put when most of his own officers and the Brits said break out immediately, Rome is undefended. He didn't, the Germans defended Rome and brought up heavy Artillery and the invasion force was pounded on the beaches.
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Message 1196435 - Posted: 17 Feb 2012, 20:03:51 UTC
Last modified: 17 Feb 2012, 20:11:24 UTC

Really? I meet Scottish people all the time and have never noticed that they move in a southerly direction and never ever move northwards.

Where did you meet these Scottish people?, or are you in Scotland yourself?

There we go; the USSR of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland.

You write as if you have a big chip on your shoulder..

As regards a United Kingdom it was as much a wont of the Scots as is was for
the English. Bony Prince Charlie wonted it, and all under his control, his whole reason for raising
an army and marching south. He eventually got cold feet and marched back up
to Scotland again.
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Message 1196439 - Posted: 17 Feb 2012, 20:29:20 UTC

One thing worries me in all this....

Should the Scots succeed with their independance...what will happen to those famous Scottish Regiments?

They have been the backbone of the British Army for centuries or will Salmond want his cake to eat?
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Message 1196440 - Posted: 17 Feb 2012, 20:33:32 UTC - in response to Message 1196435.  

Where did you meet these Scottish people?

I've spent a lot of time in Scotland, particularly in Aberdeen. I am proud to be a first foot through the door in Fife during New Years Eve on my very first visit to Scotland and have even personally met dead Scottish people in a Scottish university awaiting study by medical students who may or may not have been Scottish.

You write as if you have a big chip on your shoulder..

You write as if you have lost the plot and are resorting to insults.


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Message 1196443 - Posted: 17 Feb 2012, 20:39:06 UTC - in response to Message 1196439.  

One thing worries me in all this....

Should the Scots succeed with their independance...what will happen to those famous Scottish Regiments?

Will they change the side of the road they drive on, go Europe/America or stay English? Will they keep the English currency? And what happens to the Union Jack? They need to take the Scottish flag out of that, surely?

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Message 1196521 - Posted: 18 Feb 2012, 0:00:30 UTC - in response to Message 1196440.  
Last modified: 18 Feb 2012, 0:01:39 UTC

You write as if you have a big chip on your shoulder..

You write as if you have lost the plot and are resorting to insults.


I will have to credit you with that statement,see your quote below...

There we go; the USSR of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland.


When the referendum comes, if it does at all, the Scottish electorate will vote
to stay in the Union by a minimum of a 2 to 1 majority. I've had, during the
past four years, four Scottish staff pass through my doors who have no inclination to
move back to Scotland at any time during their employment years down in the south
here. One staff member does consider retiring back to Scotland but since he has
at least 35 years of employment still to go anything could happen. But what stands
out is one chap, a Glaswegian, who told me straight, "A wise Scotsman is a man
who both lives and works down in the south". As regarding the Independence issue
he has absolutely no time for it. So what does he know regarding this
Independence issue that worries him so. The big issue now is if Salmond is
only trying to wrestle more power for Scotland and really does not wont
total independence. If he gets it then it will put the UK government under
immense pressure to permit an English parliament of sorts to be heralded in.
For this to occur would then permit England a high level of self government,
just as Scotland has, but the Scots will have no influence upon it though like
they do over England at the moment. What will be the next stage, if England
gets it's own government, yes, England possibly pushing for independence from
the Union. Scotland has a big-big influence on how the UK is run, it punches
far above it's weight. So if England was to get it's own government then I
see Scotland being demoted to minnow status, well it only amounts to about
10% of the UK population. Perhaps this is what Alex Salmond see's happening
so hopes to jump ship before the English do thereby giving Scotland an early
start in setting itself up in good time?...Who knows, only history will tell
in the end?
The Kite Fliers

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Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.
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Message 1196597 - Posted: 18 Feb 2012, 3:59:05 UTC
Last modified: 18 Feb 2012, 4:04:58 UTC

Since the 'special relationship' between the UK and America has been severed, most dramatically, by 0bo0, (zero-bo-zero), i would suggest a direct appeal by the Scots powers to the new president elected in 2012...

Most likely it would be ignored, and the special relationship re-established; but given the world situation, i see no better hope for a collusion in the next 50 years of democratic shame at their most resounding defeat since Carter...

The returning of the bust of Churchill as 'inappropriate'.

The gift of a CD collection to *THE QUEEN*?

(I'm consistently amazed he still sits at the presidential desk, gifted by Her Majesty, Queen Victoria)

Honestly, if i were president, My gift would have been a fountain signatory pen hewn from the deck of the USS Constitution, and capped in gold from the Spanish Fleet, (but then I'm stupid, sentimental and appreciative like that.)

What could more appropriately signify the readiness of the true power of English military might for collusion with the USA than these portents?

~Just my $.02
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Message 1196737 - Posted: 18 Feb 2012, 7:18:17 UTC

Scottish independence choice should be put to whole of UK say the House of Lords.

I just think I might agree with that.

from the Guardian
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Message 1196752 - Posted: 18 Feb 2012, 7:55:14 UTC - in response to Message 1196737.  
Last modified: 18 Feb 2012, 7:55:47 UTC

Scottish independence choice should be put to whole of UK say the House of Lords.

I just think I might agree with that.

from the Guardian

This misses the whole point. The Scottish want to control their own affairs, to make decisons and not have things decided by England or the Peers who made the suggestion above. The Scottish should decide whether they should be independent or not. It is absurd that the House of Lords in England think the English, who have the bulk of the population in the UK, have to decide this for Scotland.

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Message 1196758 - Posted: 18 Feb 2012, 8:32:22 UTC - in response to Message 1196752.  
Last modified: 18 Feb 2012, 8:33:00 UTC

Scottish independence choice should be put to whole of UK say the House of Lords.

I just think I might agree with that.

from the Guardian

This misses the whole point. The Scottish want to control their own affairs, to make decisons and not have things decided by England or the Peers who made the suggestion above. The Scottish should decide whether they should be independent or not. It is absurd that the House of Lords in England think the English, who have the bulk of the population in the UK, have to decide this for Scotland.

I disagree, I have no problem with people trying to control their own affairs, but this would be a decision that affects the whole of the UK.
Also as Scotland has provided more than its fair share of the top politicians in Westminster, and it has been known for Scottish MP's to vote on purely English matters then I think they have had plenty of opportunities to put their point of view.

For many years, it has been recognised that Scotland requires more per head than England and Wales to maintain its infrastructure etc. But when oil was discovered around, in so called scottish waters, some scots, now mainly known as the SNP thought that if they separated they could keep all the riches to themselves rather than share it with the people who have financially supported them for so long.

One thing that most have not commented on. If Scotland were to become totally independant what would be the shape of politics in the remainder? blue perhaps.

*******

A quick comment to Sirius, did you look to see what is the recruiting area of the Scots Guards? Did you think it stopped at the border. Well think again, they recruit at least as far south as Preston, (that's the Lancashire one).
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Message 1196810 - Posted: 18 Feb 2012, 13:33:06 UTC - in response to Message 1196758.  

Scottish independence choice should be put to whole of UK say the House of Lords.

I just think I might agree with that.

from the Guardian

This misses the whole point. The Scottish want to control their own affairs, to make decisons and not have things decided by England or the Peers who made the suggestion above. The Scottish should decide whether they should be independent or not. It is absurd that the House of Lords in England think the English, who have the bulk of the population in the UK, have to decide this for Scotland.

I disagree, I have no problem with people trying to control their own affairs, but this would be a decision that affects the whole of the UK.
Also as Scotland has provided more than its fair share of the top politicians in Westminster, and it has been known for Scottish MP's to vote on purely English matters then I think they have had plenty of opportunities to put their point of view.

For many years, it has been recognised that Scotland requires more per head than England and Wales to maintain its infrastructure etc. But when oil was discovered around, in so called scottish waters, some scots, now mainly known as the SNP thought that if they separated they could keep all the riches to themselves rather than share it with the people who have financially supported them for so long.

You make a very good point of course WinterKnight. The union between England and Scotland is a political union - the Scots have always had choice to break this union, or ask to, in the past. The point about the SNP is also hugely important. It is not the Scottish people who are seeking independence, it is the leader of one political party in Scotland trying to drive this through.


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Message 1196960 - Posted: 18 Feb 2012, 20:02:02 UTC
Last modified: 18 Feb 2012, 20:13:09 UTC

You make a very good point of course WinterKnight. The union between England and Scotland is a political union - the Scots have always had choice to break this union, or ask to, in the past. The point about the SNP is also hugely important. It is not the Scottish people who are seeking independence, it is the leader of one political party in Scotland trying to drive this through.


Scotland has such a high level of autonomy over itself that I can't see why
they feel they would be better off totally independent from the Union. I agree
with your view GalaxyIce, to this end I wounder if this drive for Independence
is purely a one-man crusade namely that of Alex Salmond. If you asked the
English if they would like total independence from the Union you might find
the same ratio of for's and against's as mirrored in the Scottish polls.
Yet we don't intend to post this question to the English for the English seem
quite happy being in this Union even though Scotland has autonomy over the
English yet the English has none over the Scottish. The best result for Scotland
is if they vote to stay in the Union and in the processes no extra concessions
are granted to Scotland hence the status quo remains the same. If they stay in
and in the process gain extra advantages this will force the issue regarding
England having it's own government too. The British government fear granting
this to the English because it will be the eventual spearhead for promoting
independence for England. I could be wrong here but the potential for this
outcome will have then been created. So I wounder if Salmond has started something
that the English will finally finish for him, especially if the English mind-set
was to change, regarding this Union, over time.
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Message 1197025 - Posted: 18 Feb 2012, 21:48:33 UTC - in response to Message 1196982.  

I foresee that the Referendum will result in Scotland staying in the Union, but probably by a smaller margin than most would like. In which case, they will be given more devolved powers than they have now. I see this as just a brief and temporary rise in the fortunes of the SNP. If in 5 years time it is proved to be different, then I will happily admit I was wrong.


Chris, If Scotland were to be granted more powers then we might just as well
rename the Union and call it, "The United Kingdom & Scotland".
If the referendum returns a small margin in favour of staying in the Union then
I feel that this must be classed by all as an unsatisfactory result. If the
Union does not command a high level of participator support for it then this should be
the precursor to a Union wide vote on it's continuation as a Union. With only a small
margin of support, in Scotland for this Union, will only lead to the UK
government trying to buy more support there by increasing it's expenditure in
Scotland at the expence of Northern Ireland, Wales and England. You can see this
happening a mile off for it's how the political elite's minds work. In the end
this will lead to resentment by the other Union members and something will have
to give!! If the Scots can not truly feel British or identify themselves as
being British then they might just as well leave. For without this commonality
between us all then what is there to keep us "the Union" together? There has to
be a common thread and if it's not being British then what is it?



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belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.
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Message 1197052 - Posted: 18 Feb 2012, 22:43:29 UTC - in response to Message 1197036.  
Last modified: 18 Feb 2012, 22:47:50 UTC

The UK will then be called the United Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland.

No it will not. The full correct name for the UK as it stands now is "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

I have no idea what you think the UK is and what you think Britain is. Britain is the largest geographical island next to Ireland comprising England, Scotland and Wales. If you take Scotland out of Britain then there is no such thing as Britain. Unless you want to crack Scotland away and tow it to Norway.

Then I expect Ireland will be the biggest island and will have to be called Britain. Or maybe the Republic of Britain.

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