Parents role in Education ?

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Message 1411320 - Posted: 4 Sep 2013, 9:26:42 UTC

The problem is a lot of the institutions involved in teaching those who don't pass the required standard, put all those students in the same "special needs bucket".

I think you have hit a nail on the head there. That is the easy option for those who are not that good a teacher in the first place. Lets label all "difficult" pupils with the same brush, then we don't have to deal with them any more. And of course compounding the problem is educational psychologists inventing even more "excuses" for basically naughty kids to keep themselves in business.

So that you will get the true medically challenged and the others all in the same class. This doesn't help anybody, no matter how many specialist teachers and helpers are in there.

I could not agree more with you. That is basically wrong, but I don't know how to alter that.

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Message 1411360 - Posted: 4 Sep 2013, 13:33:10 UTC

This certainly does not help the issues either....

Schools "Tricks" to inflate grades
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Message 1411370 - Posted: 4 Sep 2013, 13:54:56 UTC - in response to Message 1411360.  

This certainly does not help the issues either....

Schools "Tricks" to inflate grades

You need to look further back on the thread on the days when you get up at lunch time.

I already linked that one.
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Message 1411379 - Posted: 4 Sep 2013, 14:14:26 UTC - in response to Message 1411370.  

Oops, slaps himself on wrist. That'll teach me. As for being asleep at lunch time? Naw, on a tacho break using Iphone & laptop sipping a pint :)
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Message 1412454 - Posted: 7 Sep 2013, 2:13:50 UTC

Now here is what could be a good idea.

Family income not a factor as students eat free

In the UK the politicians could get this going and at the same time reduce child benefit, as reducing benefits is one of this governments main aims.
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Message 1413173 - Posted: 9 Sep 2013, 6:19:18 UTC - in response to Message 1411315.  

...

The unteachable that I referred to was due to bad parenting that left the child with an inbuilt resistance to any sort of disciplined education, which they just rebel against.

So let's examine this. Why are so many students coming to the classroom "unteachable"?

Bad parenting? Possibly. But it is more than that because there is such hostility against authority (in particular teachers) by these students that there has to be more to it than that.

Poverty? Possibly. Parents just trying to survive have trouble putting the effort needed to raise a child properly. However we have very poor children here in Canada and still don't have the extreme behavioral problems that I saw in the UK.

Bad teachers? I have seen the most awesome teachers in my time teaching in the UK. Teaching standards since I was at school have gone through the roof. I would love to have had teachers teaching me in the progressive ways that teachers teach now. Rather than succeeding despite the education system, I would have thrived.

So lets turn it on its head. What is the common trend I have noticed in the best behaved most engaged pupils?

Respect for teachers and the value of education.

That is it. Pure and simple. If the pupils have a general respect for teachers and the value of education then they will do their best at school. It doesn't even have that much to do with the quality of the teachers.

So where to children learn to respect teachers and education?

ok, so here is the Educational "Psychobabble" that certain people here are so dismissive of. Children learn from ALL the adults around the (not just their parents). If the parents respect teachers then the students will. It doesn't matter what the parents and society tells them to think. The adults have to do what is called modelling the behaviour they what their children to display.

What sort of attitude do you think parents who read the Daily Mail model?
What sort of attitude do you think parents who hated school themselves model?
What sort of attitude do you think parents who think teachers are lazy union members model?

and so on

You want to know why children don't respect teachers? Read this thread, watch how the media treats teachers.
They came by it honestly.
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Message 1413193 - Posted: 9 Sep 2013, 8:03:49 UTC

A cracking post from Es that I almost completely agree with. She is in the fortunate position of experiencing teaching in two separate countries and can usefully compare the two.

there is such hostility against authority (in particular teachers)

Yes there is and it is inceasing.

However we have very poor children here in Canada and still don't have the extreme behavioral problems that I saw in the UK.

I am not surprised to hear that.

That is it. Pure and simple. If the pupils have a general respect for teachers and the value of education then they will do their best at school. It doesn't even have that much to do with the quality of the teachers.

100% agree.

The adults have to do what is called modelling the behaviour they what their children to display.

In other words role models that I have always championed. If a boy sees his dad treating his mum nicely and helping around the house, he is more likely to behave like that in his own marriage etc etc. The first 5 years of a childs life is being brought up by its parents, those are the formative years that really matter.

What sort of attitude do you think parents who read the Daily Mail model?

All authority is there for is to rebel against, the country is going to the dogs, so why bother with anything.

What sort of attitude do you think parents who hated school themselves model?

I didn't like it so you won't either.

What sort of attitude do you think parents who think teachers are lazy union members model?

Your teachers don't deserve respect, just look at them, I don't respect them so why should you?

But, all the above isn't psychobabble, it is simple feet on the ground common sense. But respect for teachers is only one part of the whole problem. Can anyone explain to me why kids aged 5 are being expelled from school for fighting with other kids and spitting at the teachers? That is basic anti social behaviour nothing to do with respect for teachers.

So Es, based on your experiences in both countries, what the hell is wrong with the UK in general, and teaching in particular, and how would you go about putting it right?

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Message 1413225 - Posted: 9 Sep 2013, 11:05:21 UTC

Yes it was a good post. I think that Es highlighted an interesting point in that there has to be more to the issues involved.

For 10 years (aged 4 to 14) I was beaten several times to within an inch of my life (with some being that serious, it's noted on my medical records). Attending an all boys school didn't help matters as many attempts were made to bully which after what I had experienced, was not standing still for.

That eventually got me permanently expelled. Being put into a mixed school (& at that age, what an eye opener in more ways than one). The teaching was fantastic.

Over 40 years on, one thing amazes me to this day. How I've never become a hardened criminal or a woman hater.

Now to a surprise which I only heard about fairly recently. While living in London, I had a good friend who at the time became a boyfriend to one of my sisters.

This guy had loving parents & raised him and his sister good. From what I understood at that time, he also had a good education. After leaving school & asides from him visiting the family home, I often bumped into him or his sister on my travels.

He became a wheeler dealer & the reason why I lost touch? He served a lengthy prison sentence for manslaughter. That shook me as he was a friendly cheerful & happy go lucky guy.

Looking at the two sides, one would automatically think it would have been the other way around.

Like Es stated, there has to be someting else in the mix.
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Message 1413350 - Posted: 9 Sep 2013, 18:21:07 UTC

Like Es stated, there has to be someting else in the mix.

It used to be known as "good breeding", the "right family background", "from good stock" etc etc. All old fashioned phrases these days, but back when it mattered, it told you reams about a person and their upbringing.

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Message 1413384 - Posted: 9 Sep 2013, 19:39:24 UTC - in response to Message 1413350.  

He had all that, yet did time for a very serious offence, so that's out the window.
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Message 1413695 - Posted: 10 Sep 2013, 12:12:02 UTC - in response to Message 1413193.  

So Es, based on your experiences in both countries, what the hell is wrong with the UK in general, and teaching in particular, and how would you go about putting it right?


Let teachers teach & politicians stay out of education.

Careers advice failing

"The duty to provide careers guidance was placed on schools at a time when most existing infrastructure and funding for such provision had been removed."

And just who removed those provisions? Why the government of course!
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Message 1414525 - Posted: 12 Sep 2013, 1:19:08 UTC

Encourage you children to read is the massage in this item, Maths advantage for pupils who read for pleasure.

Children who read for pleasure are likely to do better in maths and English than those who rarely read in their free time, research suggests. The study, by the Institute of Education, London University, examined the reading habits of 6,000 children.

It indicated reading for pleasure was more important to a child's development than how educated their parents were. The researchers concluded a wide vocabulary helped children absorb information across the curriculum.

They analysed the results of tests taken at the age of 16 by 6,000 children, all born in one week, from the 1970 British Cohort Study. The findings showed those who had read often at the age of 10 and had been reading books and newspapers more than once a week aged 16 had performed better than those who had read less.

There was a 14.4% advantage in vocabulary, a 9.9% advantage in maths and an 8.6% advantage in spelling, the research found, once parents' background and reading habits were taken into account.

The study said: "The influence of reading for pleasure was greater than that for having a parent with a degree."
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Message 1414761 - Posted: 12 Sep 2013, 19:01:04 UTC

Let teachers teach & politicians stay out of education.

It isn't as simple as that. Education and schools need to be funded, and that is done by politicians deciding how much they get. I have long propounded that schools and colleges should be given what they need to do the job, they should not be run as businesses. But that isn't going to happen so we need to be pragmatic about it.

Teachers are almost not allowed to teach any more, too pupils rebel against any sort of discipline, or attempt to impart knowledge because they are just not interested. And with no support from the parents what do you expect. But as Es says, it is different elsewhere, so I want to know why Canada gets it right and we get it wrong.

Careers advice failing

Yes it is, because the careers master is the one that drew the short straw, everyone else sees it as a pain in the backside. It is not the schools job to give careers advice, their job is to educate. What should be happening is a third party professional careers advice service going into schools from age 15. They should be judging the ability of the students, their likely academic attainment, and the students own career wishes. Then they can give realistic guidance as to what O or A levels to take, and what further degree studies might be appropriate.

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Message 1415031 - Posted: 13 Sep 2013, 11:39:41 UTC

The careers adviser at my school told me i would become a journalist or an auditor. Ten years later i'm a pharmaceutical chemist, that worked out well.
Life on earth is the global equivalent of not storing things in the fridge.
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Message 1415105 - Posted: 13 Sep 2013, 15:06:59 UTC

Truly as accurate as ever.
One of my cohort at school convinced the carers people he was going to be a tree surgeon, he ended up working in the local council offices....
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Message 1415364 - Posted: 14 Sep 2013, 0:10:31 UTC

My career adviser at my Grammar school told me to become a Quantity Surveyor. On comparing notes we found he had said the same to everyone (boys Grammar only).

I ended up graduating as a Chemical Engineer, and enjoyed 45 years working in various chemical industries.
It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues



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Message 1420649 - Posted: 26 Sep 2013, 20:05:52 UTC

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Message 1420653 - Posted: 26 Sep 2013, 20:10:38 UTC - in response to Message 1420649.  

I bet that will cause quite a furore.
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Message 1420778 - Posted: 26 Sep 2013, 23:38:01 UTC

For those in the UK and know youngsters think of going to University the the Russel Group have produced this "Informed Choices"
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Message 1420797 - Posted: 27 Sep 2013, 0:28:00 UTC - in response to Message 1411320.  
Last modified: 27 Sep 2013, 0:28:27 UTC

The problem is a lot of the institutions involved in teaching those who don't pass the required standard, put all those students in the same "special needs bucket".

I think you have hit a nail on the head there. That is the easy option for those who are not that good a teacher in the first place. Lets label all "difficult" pupils with the same brush, then we don't have to deal with them any more.


Uhhh ... what?
On what do you base this? Provide some current examples.
The trend in the US since somewhere around 1993-1995 has been "inclusion" ... elimination of "tracks" (advanced, college bound but not advanced, etc. ... ). I'm willing to bet it was already occurring elsewhere, like the UK, before here.
What you describe is more like what I experienced.
Neither is a perfect approach.
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