Parents role in Education ?

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Message 1300415 - Posted: 30 Oct 2012, 1:58:07 UTC - in response to Message 1300387.  

Myths;
In 1959, around 9 per cent of 16-year-olds got five or more O-levels. In 2009, the proportion gaining five or more GCSEs was 70 per cent.

Unfair comparison, as most kids, at least 80%, went to secondary modern schools and left at 15, so never even got entered for exam.
Plus as noted before, by several people, the examination system was different. How many would pass today if it was a single 3 hour exam and the results were normalised, as they were then.

edit] A recent survey showed that most 55- to 65-year-olds lack the maths skills expected of a nine-year-old today.

That could be down to methods and terminology. A complaint I recently saw for an over 50's maths module was they didn't understand the terminology. They did know how to do the problems when translated into their maths language. Think mean and average, etc.

That could also be the converse too, kids doing the 1960s test today may have trouble with the terminology too.
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Message 1300417 - Posted: 30 Oct 2012, 1:58:31 UTC - in response to Message 1300391.  

Those things are on the GCSE science syllabus if that helps, so they should be aware of the idea of a logarithmic scale, they just can't manipulate logs.

So now they are teaching things in science before the students have gained the required maths. Does not look good from my perspective.

Lol. That's always been the case.
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Message 1300474 - Posted: 30 Oct 2012, 7:58:13 UTC - in response to Message 1300417.  

Those things are on the GCSE science syllabus if that helps, so they should be aware of the idea of a logarithmic scale, they just can't manipulate logs.

So now they are teaching things in science before the students have gained the required maths. Does not look good from my perspective.

Lol. That's always been the case.

Maybe for public services, but when the student or his employer are paying, no.
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Message 1301029 - Posted: 1 Nov 2012, 17:48:23 UTC - in response to Message 1300368.  

So how do you explain the differences in the strength of earthquakes like the one you have just had, without knowledge of Logs?

At the moment over 80% of the school leaving population will not understand because they don't do "A" level maths.

Or sound differences.
And how will they know what the figures mean on a hifi amp, such as Frequency response, max noise level, channel separation all expressed in dB.


Edit] Digital technology, well that was trade related, so 1962. So not a fair answer.


While arithmetic with log may not be part of GCSE, it may be that exponential rates of change are (like a graph of y = x^2). The principle is essentially the same.

Knowing that dB uses a base 10 logarithmic scale as it's basis, is not helpful when trying to understand the details of the scale without additional information. An increase of 3 dB is not equal to an increase by a multiple of 1000 of anything, as dB is computed as 10xlog(power ratio), which makes an increase of 3 dB equivalent to about a doubling of the power ratio, which in itself is pretty meaningless without an understanding that IIRC the human ear has trouble discerning broad spectrum changes of less than 2dB.

Conversely, the Richter scale is a straight base 10 logarithmic scale, so an increase of .3 is equivalent to about a doubling of the energy.

What percentage of any given population finds such details useful in their day to day activity I have no idea. The good news is that it's all out there on the internet ready for anybody with an interest to look it up.

Bob's example here is very worthy for I studied all this many-many years ago
but never needed it once studied. Yet upon reading his post here I had
absolutely no problem in following plus fully understanding the technicalities
held within.


The Kite Fliers

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Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.
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Message 1301032 - Posted: 1 Nov 2012, 18:00:11 UTC - in response to Message 1300385.  

However, last summer we went on a 6 hours drive to visit relatives and mr99 had downloaded all the actual chart hits from the entire 1970s to listen to in our journey. "What a treat!" you might think, "finally, we can bathe our ears in some quality music performed in a much better time when music was clearly of a higher standard!"

6 hours of the most awful, awful soul destroying pap. Songs I had wilfully forgotten had ever been written and hope to never listen to again. I think we wore out the skip button on the car radio in between moments of WTF was that? There were a few songs of notable quality that you could probably name for me now, but I am sure like me, you've forgotten the reality of how awful most of the music was in the 70s.

Disco Duck

Gary!! no-no-no...the 70's was brilliant for it's disco music and has never
been beaten. I ran a disco outfit from 1974 through to 1983 and the only time
Disco Duck ever got played was for kiddies do's...it never got played
in the big club functions...god!! you'd get laughed out of the club if you did.



The Kite Fliers

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Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.
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Message 1301043 - Posted: 1 Nov 2012, 18:20:17 UTC - in response to Message 1301032.  

Gary!! no-no-no...the 70's was brilliant for it's disco music and has never
been beaten. I ran a disco outfit from 1974 through to 1983 and the only time
Disco Duck ever got played was for kiddies do's...it never got played
in the big club functions...god!! you'd get laughed out of the club if you did.

IIRC it did get radio air play and that would put it "on the charts" and into a compilation.

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Message 1301150 - Posted: 2 Nov 2012, 4:36:22 UTC
Last modified: 2 Nov 2012, 4:37:17 UTC

In Message 1300198 I expressed the view that I didn't like course work because there could be manipulation by the teachers. Well the latest from Ofqual (the office that supervises education standards in the UK) on the fiasco about the English results agrees.

Independent - Damning report reveals GCSE marking scandal
Teachers are today accused of perpetrating a widespread abuse of the exams system by bumping up the marks of their pupils to get them top-grade GCSE passes. In a report, the exams watchdog Ofqual claims that a widespread loss of integrity in the profession has led many teachers to deliberately inflate coursework marks.


Guardian - English GCSEs overmarked by teachers pushed to limit, says regulator
Children have been let down by an exam system that was open to abuse by teachers under pressure to achieve good grades.

BBC - Pressurised teachers 'marked GCSE too generously'
Too much pressure on schools in England to get good GCSE grades led to over-generous marking of coursework by teachers, the exams watchdog concludes.
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Message 1301157 - Posted: 2 Nov 2012, 4:55:25 UTC - in response to Message 1301150.  

In Message 1300198 I expressed the view that I didn't like course work because there could be manipulation by the teachers. Well the latest from Ofqual (the office that supervises education standards in the UK) on the fiasco about the English results agrees.

Independent - Damning report reveals GCSE marking scandal
Teachers are today accused of perpetrating a widespread abuse of the exams system by bumping up the marks of their pupils to get them top-grade GCSE passes. In a report, the exams watchdog Ofqual claims that a widespread loss of integrity in the profession has led many teachers to deliberately inflate coursework marks.


Guardian - English GCSEs overmarked by teachers pushed to limit, says regulator
Children have been let down by an exam system that was open to abuse by teachers under pressure to achieve good grades.

BBC - Pressurised teachers 'marked GCSE too generously'
Too much pressure on schools in England to get good GCSE grades led to over-generous marking of coursework by teachers, the exams watchdog concludes.

I guess those league tables, performance pay and bullying by heads really paid off then.
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Message 1301159 - Posted: 2 Nov 2012, 4:59:19 UTC - in response to Message 1301157.  

Did you really expect anything different?
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Message 1301224 - Posted: 2 Nov 2012, 10:57:48 UTC - in response to Message 1301217.  
Last modified: 2 Nov 2012, 11:01:57 UTC

Ms Stacey added she believed teachers had marked the test "optimistically", rather than with a deliberate intention to inflate grades.

But that doesn't quite agree with what teacher Aa said in the Independents version.

We have to cheat': Aa teacher confesses

Extracts from an email in the report:

"I've just read my school email... including the instruction 'all folders (pupils' assignments) must be at or above target grade'...

When I've dared to suggest that the controlled assessments (CAs) should be done in exam conditions and that lots of schools are doing that, I'm told that is rubbish... and that we have to cheat because other schools will be doing so and we cannot afford to let our results slip at all.

I'm sorry but that is wrong and the demand to have all folders at or above target grade is unrealistic... I thank God I am taking early retirement at the end of this year."


Which basically is what I suspected all along with teacher assessments, is that once somebody see's there is a method to inflate the results then everybody assumes everybody else is and so they also do it.

Result, grade inflation, the very thing that most politicians and teachers have said is not happening.
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Message 1301295 - Posted: 2 Nov 2012, 16:03:28 UTC - in response to Message 1301224.  

Ms Stacey added she believed teachers had marked the test "optimistically", rather than with a deliberate intention to inflate grades.

But that doesn't quite agree with what teacher Aa said in the Independents version.

We have to cheat': Aa teacher confesses

Extracts from an email in the report:

"I've just read my school email... including the instruction 'all folders (pupils' assignments) must be at or above target grade'...

When I've dared to suggest that the controlled assessments (CAs) should be done in exam conditions and that lots of schools are doing that, I'm told that is rubbish... and that we have to cheat because other schools will be doing so and we cannot afford to let our results slip at all.

I'm sorry but that is wrong and the demand to have all folders at or above target grade is unrealistic... I thank God I am taking early retirement at the end of this year."


Which basically is what I suspected all along with teacher assessments, is that once somebody see's there is a method to inflate the results then everybody assumes everybody else is and so they also do it.

Result, grade inflation, the very thing that most politicians and teachers have said is not happening.

All I know is that in my early years of teaching I gave honest reports and grades to my classes. I got abuse at parents evening from a parent that left me in tears and the headtecher instead of backing me up also laid into me. I learned never to do that again. I got told that all the other teachers had given good reports to the same kids so I must be wrong, but I knew from staffroom discussion that the other teachers had exactly the same issues with exactly the same kids. My conclusion was that the other teachers had learned to lie on their reports to protect themselves from the parents and head.

Later when performance pay came in I can only imagine the situation got worse. Add to that more frequent OFSTED inspections, terrible behaviour of the pupils and it always being the teachers fault no matter what, it's no wonder I never want to teach in the UK again and still have nightmares about it.

Do you know that the average career of a teacher in inner cities in 4 years before they quit? There is reason for that.

It's the only job I've ever worked in where management feel it is ok to scream at a teacher as if they were a disobedient child. I was so shocked when I first saw it happen. Now I am just disgusted at the culture of bullying in UK schools. The teachers get bullied by the parents, the management, the media and the government, yet all they want to do is what is best for the kids they teach.

I don't think the overall standard of the actual exams of courses has changed, I could be wrong, I do know that I always taught to the correct standard. I do completely believe that teachers are bullied into over inflating their marks. However, it would be a slight effect, in science the coursework is only worth 20%. The rest is national exam. All coursework is moderated by other teachers to ensure that it is being marked properly, also some is chosen by the exam board to be moderated independently. If the marks are glaringly inconsistent coming from one school then the all the coursework from that school is inspected. Any over marking should be picked up before final marks are awarded.

I can't comment on other exams because I am not sure what the component of coursework is, by I do now that they also put in safeguards to moderate their coursework.
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Message 1301302 - Posted: 2 Nov 2012, 16:17:47 UTC

ES

Looking in from the outside with several teacher friends and falimy, I fully endorse your comments. Age is a thing to take in to account, but all of them have left the prodession for the same reasons.

I wonder if the head, and parents, would try an bully a teacher who is an athletic 19 stone and 6 foot 4 inchs (1.93 metres) tall, and a champoin boxer? I think not!
It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues



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Message 1302021 - Posted: 4 Nov 2012, 9:42:10 UTC

There are some more teachers comments in a follow up in the Telegragh 'We have to cheat, nanny and fiddle', teachers say
Here's one of the comments,
I feel I am being made to cheat. I've taught the kids and then let them do the tasks - we have to do them in the classrooms, except for those who need access arrangements, who are under the beady eye of external invigilators. I taught my kids, gave them the opportunity to make notes, and then did the damned things like an exam. Result? Lots of them underperformed against their targets. Not good enough. This work, I am told, is really coursework, and has to be at target grade, or they will not reach their targets at the end of the course. Others in the department have done marked drafts. I'm now feeling pressured to get some of mine to redo various pieces. I've voiced my objections, but have been told that the long and the short of it is that they have to be nannied through at every stage - there is disbelief when I say that some schools are doing the CAs as exams. I resent the implication that I am failing my kids, when actually what they produce is probably more accurate as an indication of their abilities than their target grades are. The sooner this nonsense is stopped and we go back to 100 per cent exams, the better.
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Message 1302061 - Posted: 4 Nov 2012, 12:55:23 UTC - in response to Message 1302049.  

Qbert - I do hope that was not a personal attack upon ES99.


Wow, from a retired "educator" telling another poster "Well why mess about, go and join the National Front or the BNP".

If that's not a racist remark then neither is Qberts post a personal attack.

For those who don't know what the NF or BNP is - check for yourselves: -

National Front

BNP

Stop being a hypocrite!
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Message 1302208 - Posted: 4 Nov 2012, 18:28:20 UTC - in response to Message 1302041.  

All I know is that in my early years of teaching I gave honest reports and grades to my classes. I got abuse at parents evening from a parent that left me in tears and the headtecher instead of backing me up also laid into me. I learned never to do that again.


You must have missed the part of your liberal indoctrination that discriminating against equal outcome for any kid was wrong to begin with. It took this event to teach you that you must have been born a racist/bigotted/homophobe. I don't blame you for being a liberal, I blame the hippie movement of the 60's.

Sorry Qbert, I never got that memo. I guess you don't really know what happened during my liberal brainwashing indoctrination after all.
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Message 1302211 - Posted: 4 Nov 2012, 18:33:38 UTC - in response to Message 1302055.  

Qbert - I do hope that was not a personal attack upon ES99.


ABSOLUTELY NOT! I'm just pointing out what modern liberalism is. Modern liberalism is the problem in public education. Public education has been indoctrinating liberals since the hippie movement of the 60s. Liberalism teaches discrimination is wrong. Wrong in ALL cases.

Discrimination is wrong.
You see, to discriminate is to say someone is right and someone is wrong.

This is not discrimination. You are incorrect, you also know that I am definitely at the very least a liberal and have no compunction about telling anyone at all when I think they are wrong.

To say someone is right or wrong is what's been happening in human civilization for the past 50,000 years. Since nothing in recent human history has rid us of war, crime and poverty, everything in recent human history is wrong. What we've been doing for the past 50,000 years is judging people. Therefore, judging people is the problem as defined by modern liberal philosophy. If we quit judging people, we'll get rid of all war, poverty and crime.

That's what modern liberalism is.

Wars, crime, murder etc are actually on the decline and are at lower rates than they have ever been in history. It's still not good enough, but as long as we keep getting more liberal things will continue to improve.

Good old liberalism. Helping civilisation to progress for thousands of years.
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Message 1302307 - Posted: 4 Nov 2012, 22:26:50 UTC - in response to Message 1302055.  
Last modified: 4 Nov 2012, 22:27:37 UTC

Qbert - I do hope that was not a personal attack upon ES99.


ABSOLUTELY NOT! I'm just pointing out what modern liberalism is. Modern liberalism is the problem in public education. Public education has been indoctrinating liberals since the hippie movement of the 60s. Liberalism teaches discrimination is wrong. Wrong in ALL cases. You see, to discriminate is to say someone is right and someone is wrong. To say someone is right or wrong is what's been happening in human civilization for the past 50,000 years. Since nothing in recent human history has rid us of war, crime and poverty, everything in recent human history is wrong. What we've been doing for the past 50,000 years is judging people. Therefore, judging people is the problem as defined by modern liberal philosophy. If we quit judging people, we'll get rid of all war, poverty and crime.

That's what modern liberalism is.

There's more than one meaning of the word discriminate:

verb (used without object)
1. to make a distinction in favor of or against a person or thing on the basis of the group, class, or category to which the person or thing belongs rather than according to actual merit; show partiality: The new law discriminates against foreigners. He discriminates in favor of his relatives.
2. to note or observe a difference; distinguish accurately: to discriminate between things.
verb (used with object)
3. to make or constitute a distinction in or between; differentiate: a mark that discriminates the original from the copy.
4. to note or distinguish as different: He can discriminate minute variations in tone.

From what I understand, liberalism (and a few other "isms") believe the first meaning to be "wrong", if you do not, please explain why. As for the second meaning, I'm not sure I know of any "ism" that is against that.

As for the history of saying someone is right or wrong, you may well be correct in your estimation of its heritage, though saying something is so, does not make it so, for that it helps to have evidence. You say you are "just pointing out what modern liberalism is" though provide no evidence in support of what you say. Why should anybody believe you?
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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