Who is to Blame?

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Profile Bob DeWoody
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Message 1161966 - Posted: 13 Oct 2011, 20:13:32 UTC

I believe that basically we make our own luck with that random factor thrown in from time to time. Case in point, last year I had a nearly fatal car accident. Did I make my own luck when the driver of another vehicle coming from the other direction lost control and swerved into my lane on a curve. No, of course not. But the fact that I chose to wear a seatbelt on that occasion probably saved my life so in that regard I did make my own luck. Life is full of little twists and turns like that. It was bad luck that I was born with spinabifida but it was good luck that my Dad was stationed at a Navy base only 50 miles from Boston where the best surgeon in the country was able to operate and prevent me from ending up totally paralyzed. Bottom line sh#t happens and it is how we deal with it that makes us successes or failures.
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My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events.
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Message 1161981 - Posted: 13 Oct 2011, 21:10:46 UTC - in response to Message 1161966.  

I believe that basically we make our own luck with that random factor thrown in from time to time. Case in point, last year I had a nearly fatal car accident. Did I make my own luck when the driver of another vehicle coming from the other direction lost control and swerved into my lane on a curve. No, of course not. But the fact that I chose to wear a seatbelt on that occasion probably saved my life so in that regard I did make my own luck. Life is full of little twists and turns like that. It was bad luck that I was born with spinabifida but it was good luck that my Dad was stationed at a Navy base only 50 miles from Boston where the best surgeon in the country was able to operate and prevent me from ending up totally paralyzed. Bottom line sh#t happens and it is how we deal with it that makes us successes or failures.


Here you indicated you earned a BA in Math Education, which means you studies a lot of math, not just education. And, depending on the school, you may have also had a fair amount of science classes. So, you should understand the line of inquiry I am proposing: "What does science tell us about the idea that we make our own luck." Anecdotes (n = 1) won't cut it here.
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Message 1162038 - Posted: 14 Oct 2011, 0:06:18 UTC

, and you clam up.)

Again, a hot, dry summer. When so, I go out and toss some water unto the grass, tree, bushes of my yard. Mostly to give the micro-biotic, fungal, and insect life a little drink.

Usually, I'll see a Butterfly taking a swig from a tiny puddle. The Butterfly will Flutter Its Wings.

When I go back inside, I will turn on The News and see what Destruction The Fluttering Wings of The Butterfly has caused. Lots of Destruction. Them Wings Have Power. Around The World and Locally. Lots of Bad Luck.

All because of Slight Fluttering of A Thirsty Butterfly.

I imagine Some Good and Happiness occurred. The News is bereft of it. Mostly. So, The Flutter caused Good Luck also.

I will continue To Quench The Thirst of The Butterfly. And its Wings will Continue to Flutter.

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Message 1162066 - Posted: 14 Oct 2011, 2:26:04 UTC - in response to Message 1161981.  

What does science tell us about the idea that we make our own luck?


Luck is defined as a force for good or ill in a person's life, as in shaping circumstances, events or opportunities. This force cannot be tested in a controlled manner, sampled in any form, or measured in any way. Ergo, luck, like other unseen forces, doesn't actually exist. Life is more of a matter of probabilities affected by cause and effect.

Therefore, science doesn't tell us anything about the idea that we make our own luck, because science does not recognize the existence of luck.
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Message 1162093 - Posted: 14 Oct 2011, 4:38:26 UTC - in response to Message 1162066.  

What does science tell us about the idea that we make our own luck?


Luck is defined as a force for good or ill in a person's life, as in shaping circumstances, events or opportunities. This force cannot be tested in a controlled manner, sampled in any form, or measured in any way. Ergo, luck, like other unseen forces, doesn't actually exist. Life is more of a matter of probabilities affected by cause and effect.

Therefore, science doesn't tell us anything about the idea that we make our own luck, because science does not recognize the existence of luck.

What he said. There is probability and statistics but neither math nor science has a field of study concerning luck. Things that happen to us either happen as a result of an action taken by our selves or an action by others or random chance which can result in what is called good luck or bad luck depending on the outcome.
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Message 1162241 - Posted: 14 Oct 2011, 17:13:34 UTC
Last modified: 14 Oct 2011, 17:14:04 UTC

Lets look at a study that has been done about why people are successful:

"One in 25 business leaders may be a psychopath, study finds.
Psychopaths use charm and manipulation to achieve success in the workplace, according to a US study"

What sort of world do we live in where psychopathic traits are what we aspire to?
No wonder these people go on the TV and claim that it's your own fault that you are poor. Why would you even give a second thought to such a ludicrous claim???
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Message 1162271 - Posted: 14 Oct 2011, 19:15:38 UTC - in response to Message 1162241.  

Lets look at a study that has been done about why people are successful:

"One in 25 business leaders may be a psychopath, study finds.
Psychopaths use charm and manipulation to achieve success in the workplace, according to a US study"

What sort of world do we live in where psychopathic traits are what we aspire to?
No wonder these people go on the TV and claim that it's your own fault that you are poor. Why would you even give a second thought to such a ludicrous claim???


It'll probably come as little surprise to some, I took The Psycopath Test and passed :-). I do not believe that pyschopathic traits are what many people aspire to, indeed, based on the aforementioned test, I suspect that the opposite is more likely to be true.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1162309 - Posted: 14 Oct 2011, 20:42:19 UTC

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Message 1162608 - Posted: 15 Oct 2011, 11:10:57 UTC - in response to Message 1160599.  

On "Meet the Press," right now, Paul Ryan speaking to host David Gregory. Mr. Gregory plays a clip of Herman Cain: "If you're not a billionaire, don't blame Wall Street, blame yourself." Gregory asks Ryan, is what Cain is saying the Republican message for 2012? Gregory responds that he wants to work on removing the barriers Washington has placed on people that keep them from rising.

Implicit in this is that there are outside factors that effect lives of individuals, possibly so much so that one cannot just attribute personal successes and failures on one's own decisions.

That's what I think. What do you think?


A long, long time ago I realized how to get rich. All I had to do was find what I loved doing that people would pay me to do. Something that I would work 24/7 doing if I did not have to sleep. People would praise me as the hardest worker they had ever known but I would just be enjoying myself.

To get rich I would simply build on that reputation to start a company of people doing the same thing, raise capital, manage people, deal with accountants, deal with lawyers and a whole host of things which had nothing to do with what I loved doing. The richer I would get the less I would do what I loved.

OR...

There are people who love being businessmen and doing the all those things that businessmen have to do. People who do that sort of thing tend to make more money that the rest of us just because they are on top of the salary chain.

Now if anyone thinks everyone can be at the top of the salary chain without workers because all workers are also at the top of their salary chains they are welcome to their fantasy.

Unless you are an artist discovered while you are alive (which is Hollywood and rock bands and Harry Potter authors and the like as well as Picasso and Daly) there is almost no chance of getting rich doing what you like unless you like being a businessman.
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Message 1164399 - Posted: 22 Oct 2011, 0:56:08 UTC

Migrants from Sanity
By TIMOTHY EGAN
The New York Times
October 20, 2011

With 14 million Americans out of work, you would think somebody could answer the desperation call from farmers offering to pay $150 to anyone willing to pick fruit in the orchards of Washington State. But no, the apples hang at peak ripeness, a near-record crop, and the jobs go begging, despite radio ads and an appeal by Governor Christine Gregoire to the other Washington for help.

One thing the United States still does better than most countries is grow food. But one thing it now does worse than others is govern to solve problems. And so, the apples rot, businesses are crippled, and dreams of fresh life in a new country are dashed. This dystopian status quo exists because the simple-minded who control one of the major political parties have shut down all adult talk on the subject of immigration.

Roll the tape from Tuesday’s Republican presidential debate, and there you see a front-runner, Mitt Romney, who spoke the Michael Kinsley definition of a gaffe – telling the truth by accident. It came after he was needled about the Latino man without proper papers who used to labor on the 2.5 acre lawn of the Romney estate.

“I’m running for office, for Pete’s sake,” Romney recalled telling the lawn service, in words that will be replayed over and over. “I can’t have illegals.”

Romney was part of the shadow economy that keeps grass clipped, apples picked and chickens plucked in every part of this country. If he’d said, “Who else is going to cut my lawn?” at least he’d have started an honest debate.

Another front-runner, the pizza salesman Herman Cain, has vowed to build a multi-billion-dollar fence along the 2,000-mile border with Mexico. As he envisions it, this 20-foot-high barrier will be topped by barbed wire and fully juiced, in order to kill by electric shock all challengers — mothers with children and young men alike.

This country has long been known for the words of the Emma Lazarus sonnet at the base of the Statue of Liberty: “Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.” That line should bring tears to any descendant of an immigrant, which is to say most Americans. But some Republicans apparently want to replace that motto with: Kill the Mexicans.

Cain initially sloughed off this suggestion, saying it was a joke. But then he clarified it a few days later with these words: “I don’t apologize for using a combination of a fence. And it might be electrified — I’m not walking away from that.”

More telling — and truly chilling — is the fact that the audience at the Tea-Party-sponsored Cain speech on Saturday cheered when he initially promised to electrocute Mexicans. “The fence is going to be electrified, and there is going to be a sign on the other side that says, ‘It will kill you.’”

Now, substitute Irish for Mexicans and imagine the reaction. You simply could never say such a thing. But Latinos — they can be routinely dehumanized to appease the black-hearted base of the Republican Party. It’s not hard to see how talk of killing Mexicans, for what is a misdemeanor offense, is such a dis to many of the 50 million Americans who are Latino — the largest ethnic group in the country.

Cain’s comments were the last straw for Lauro Garza, a longtime Texas Republican and fierce conservative. He quit the party this week in disgust, saying he was appalled that people cheered remarks by Cain that “advocated for the murder of innocent people.” Sorry, Mr. Garza, but that’s the party base of 2011, the same folks who booed a gay soldier serving in Iraq, and applauded the idea of letting a sick but uninsured man die in the hospital emergency room.

And, just as not a single Republican candidate stood up for the soldier in harm’s way who had been booed, no one on the stage in Las Vegas challenged Cain on his lethal border suggestions.

A former front-runner, Gov. Rick Perry of Texas, actually had some good ideas on immigration that enjoyed — not so long ago — bipartisan support. But the stiff-shouldered, sentence-snagged, swagger-shrunken Texas governor has dropped so fast with that moderate position that he’s now reduced to calling Herm Cain “brother,” and assailing Romney for the Latino on his lawn.

Meanwhile, jobs go begging: in Alabama, which passed the nation’s harshest anti-immigrant law; in Georgia, where the governor suggested using convicts to work in the fields after 11,000 jobs went unfilled; and in the orchards of Washington, where the flow to the far north has diminished mainly because of the recession.

Well then, why not hire only people with full citizenship? One farmer in Colorado, John Harold, tried doing just that, hoping to fill harvest positions with jobless locals looking for extra cash. But as my colleague Kirk Johnson reported, many of those locals did not last even a full day; they complained of the hard work in the onion fields of Colorado.

The problem, through good times and bad, is that there are millions of jobs that Americans will not do. The solution, some combination of path to citizenship with guest worker programs, should be within the grasp of the better political minds.

But tepid Democrats are afraid of doing anything. And some Republicans want a death fence, and will go after anyone who has an illegal on his lawn. It’s the great disconnect — yet another reason why so many Americans have a higher regard for a single-celled protozoan than a politician working the stump.



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Message 1165660 - Posted: 27 Oct 2011, 1:43:29 UTC - in response to Message 1162241.  

Lets look at a study that has been done about why people are successful:

"One in 25 business leaders may be a psychopath, study finds.
Psychopaths use charm and manipulation to achieve success in the workplace, according to a US study"

What sort of world do we live in where psychopathic traits are what we aspire to?
No wonder these people go on the TV and claim that it's your own fault that you are poor. Why would you even give a second thought to such a ludicrous claim???


To William Rothamel, Bob Dewoody & Ozzfan: you might want to read http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~pzapf/classes/CRJ70000/Formulating%20the%20research%20question.htm. In particular, looking into "researchable question" and "operationalization" (i.e., an operational definition of a term).
What Es cites, I take it without having yet read what's at her links, probably does this: defining luck as successful in some way, which can be measured, say in the case of monetary success by looking at something like a.g.i. orr and other monetary measures.
I used your words from this and another thread, essentially boiling down to, "We, as individuals, are completely responsible for our own successes and failures."
You tried to seize on my use of your word, "luck". Bob tried to give me a lesson on what Probability & Statistics are and are not, not knowing my background apparently.
But, as I say, we can find something roughly synonymous with "lucky", such as "successful" and create a reasonable operational definition of "successful" and thus measure it. From there, one might be able to answer a researchable question involving the term.
BTW, Bob, no offense, but one of your ending comments in a later post is contradictory to your earlier statements. It makes me think of one of the ending lines from "Forrest Gump", where Forrest muses aloud by Jebby's grave that he doesn't know if his mother was right and everyone has a purpose, or if Lt. Dan was right and everyone is "floating around, accidental like, on a breeze. But I think .. maybe ... mabe it's both?"
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Message 1169064 - Posted: 8 Nov 2011, 2:53:06 UTC
Last modified: 8 Nov 2011, 2:53:41 UTC

"The 1% are the very best destroyers of wealth the world has ever seen

Our common treasury in the last 30 years has been captured by industrial psychopaths. That's why we're nearly bankrupt.

If wealth was the inevitable result of hard work and enterprise, every woman in Africa would be a millionaire. The claims that the ultra-rich 1% make for themselves – that they are possessed of unique intelligence or creativity or drive – are examples of the self-attribution fallacy. This means crediting yourself with outcomes for which you weren't responsible. Many of those who are rich today got there because they were able to capture certain jobs. This capture owes less to talent and intelligence than to a combination of the ruthless exploitation of others and accidents of birth, as such jobs are taken disproportionately by people born in certain places and into certain classes.

...
"
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Message 1169071 - Posted: 8 Nov 2011, 4:13:43 UTC

I normally try not to get involved in the political thread, but this time I can not help myself. If I get the gist of this, you are blaming your lack of success on those that are very successful. If you live in a rundown house or mobile home, that is YOUR FAULT, not theirs. If you are driving a 1989 ford tempo, that is YOUR FAULT, not theirs..
I certainly understand the fact that some people, due to physical or mental limitations, are limited in the options they have to obtain wealth. Luck is what happens to people that are willing to make plans and then carry them out. They are willing to work 60-80 hrs. a week to achieve the goals they have set.
Those of you that I mentioned above, work your 40 hrs. a week and set on the couch drinking beer and watching sports on your bigscreen t.v.
If you are really upset with the successful people in this world, don't sit around complaining about it, go out and change it. Make yourself one of the successful. Or would you rather not give up your spot on the couch?

The original question was "who is to blame? YOU ARE!

P.S.
It was not my intention to offend or insult any one on this thread.


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Message 1169095 - Posted: 8 Nov 2011, 7:06:04 UTC - in response to Message 1169071.  

I guess we as a country are a lot more blameworthy at the individual level than we were in the early 1970's.

You see, I think that represents something of the counter to your point of view. I don't know that I can accept that view.

It sounds a bit like what Cain has been trying to sell, and now he's expanding that to women who worked for him -- all their troubles with him on on them. I don't buy that either.

I'm not saying that the very wealthy and the corporations are the sole problem source in this country -- but I do see them as a significant part of the problem. I don't give them a pass simply because they are wealthy (which is an implication of your view).



The original question was "who is to blame? YOU ARE!

P.S.
It was not my intention to offend or insult any one on this thread.


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Message 1169189 - Posted: 8 Nov 2011, 16:16:18 UTC - in response to Message 1169095.  

I think the reality is that most if not all students are taught from an early age to be cogs in the machine. Inventiveness and copetitiveness are for getting raises and jockeying for assistant managerships at McDonalds. Most if not all high school student don't have a clue how to create and run a business even if their parents did and/or are. We've created a society of sheeple. the more I write the sadder I get. I'll stop now


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Message 1169233 - Posted: 8 Nov 2011, 22:26:55 UTC - in response to Message 1169189.  

I think the reality is that most if not all students are taught from an early age to be cogs in the machine. Inventiveness and copetitiveness are for getting raises and jockeying for assistant managerships at McDonalds. Most if not all high school student don't have a clue how to create and run a business even if their parents did and/or are. We've created a society of sheeple. the more I write the sadder I get. I'll stop now

Now we are getting to the root cause of the problem in the USA. I believe there is a saying: Those that can, do; those that can't, teach. Unfortunately it seems like they [collectively] can't teach either.

Some time ago it was decided that every kid was supposed to be on a college prep path. Big mistake. Now we have far too many with useless degrees of questionable quality and no one is left to run the machines so those jobs are overseas. It will take a couple of generations to sort this mess out.

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Message 1169238 - Posted: 8 Nov 2011, 22:38:57 UTC - in response to Message 1169233.  

I think that a fair number of those college degrees are going to folks who get remedial education in college to compensate for a declining skill set when entering college. (Aside -- my wife teaches course at a university and too many of the papers -- this is for a Sophomore/Junior level class -- reflect a serious lack of English writing skills.

So we have too many folks in college without a clue. Then again, vocational training in high schools (and community colleges) is both difficult and expensive to put together. You teach folks to 'run machines' as you say, and by the time they get to the work force, the 'machines' are something entirely different.

Also, it is difficult to see just who in this country really wants to work for $200 to $250 a week in 2011 dollars doing the sorts of things those exported jobs get done for half of that overseas.



Some time ago it was decided that every kid was supposed to be on a college prep path. Big mistake. Now we have far too many with useless degrees of questionable quality and no one is left to run the machines so those jobs are overseas. It will take a couple of generations to sort this mess out.

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Message 1169293 - Posted: 9 Nov 2011, 1:49:30 UTC - in response to Message 1169233.  

Gary, you and I both know those jobs are going overseas due to lower costs, labor and environmental regs. The large multinational corps do not give a rat for the society which provides their owners with the benefits of a civil society. As the well documented wealth disparity increases the civil society will go away.
I fear soon those people will not be living merely in gated estates but will need armed guards also. You reap what you sow.
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Message 1169332 - Posted: 9 Nov 2011, 4:57:23 UTC - in response to Message 1169293.  

Well you see, those jobs won't go over there under the TeaPublicans, since the minimum wage and environmental regulations would be repealed. Vote the TeaPublicans in and unemployment rates drop (with no increase in total wages paid currently), and, you get thicker (must be better) air and water as well. What could be wrong with that?

Gary, you and I both know those jobs are going overseas due to lower costs, labor and environmental regs. The large multinational corps do not give a rat for the society which provides their owners with the benefits of a civil society. As the well documented wealth disparity increases the civil society will go away.
I fear soon those people will not be living merely in gated estates but will need armed guards also. You reap what you sow.

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Message 1169348 - Posted: 9 Nov 2011, 6:31:49 UTC - in response to Message 1169293.  

Gary, you and I both know those jobs are going overseas due to lower costs, labor and environmental regs. The large multinational corps do not give a rat for the society which provides their owners with the benefits of a civil society. As the well documented wealth disparity increases the civil society will go away.
I fear soon those people will not be living merely in gated estates but will need armed guards also. You reap what you sow.

You are under the delusion that the owners of the large multinational corps are Americans.

They have been living with armed guards since the Lindberg baby was kidnapped.

As to the fiction of the concentration of wealth today, you really need to read up about the richest man on the planet and when he lived. He could buy and sell Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Steve Jobs, Warren Buffett, etc. His wealth is listed by Wiki at $663.4billion, or by another measure, his personal fortune was equal to 1.53% of the total U.S. economy. Its all been trickle down since then.


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