Dale Farm Travellers

Message boards : Politics : Dale Farm Travellers
Message board moderation

To post messages, you must log in.

Previous · 1 · 2 · 3 · 4 · 5 · 6 · Next

AuthorMessage
Sirius B Project Donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Dec 00
Posts: 24570
Credit: 3,081,182
RAC: 7
Ireland
Message 1156453 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 23:22:12 UTC - in response to Message 1156448.  

Odds on that we won't. The judge stated earlier today in court that the original Eviction Notices were not clearly defined & that now some of the illegal plots are to remain...so to remove those Basildon Council will have to restart legal precedings again from the beginning with regards to those plots.

That tells me precisely what direction the case will take on Thursday.
ID: 1156453 · Report as offensive
bobby
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 22 Mar 02
Posts: 2866
Credit: 17,789,109
RAC: 3
United States
Message 1156462 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 23:53:50 UTC - in response to Message 1156452.  

Should the Dale Farm travellers win their case, their grounds for doing so should be available to all residents of Basildon, under the rules of case law (a.k.a. precendent). I'd imagine it's possible, though I have no idea how likely, that the case creates new law for England and Wales. I do not believe this case could create new law for Scotland or Northern Island. It's been a very long time since I had to study law books, so I may be incorrect on some of the details, if anybody knows better, I'd welcome their additions.


Case Law I believe is more about how judges interpret the law and then how it should be applied to individual circumstances. It tends to set a precedent that the legal fraternity can lay reference too in support of a case. Laws in the UK are produced under statute and judges, by their rulings, can have influence on the formulation of new laws or the amendments to existing laws. A good example of case law V statute law comes with the current trend of our courts in not finding people for killing burglars who enter their properties. It has been muted by the current UK P.M. that he wished to see this made law, so burglars watch out!


I guess it's a matter of what we call "new law". Laws are certainly created by Statutes, though I believe that the legal community also uses the term for laws created under the rules of case law. For instance, it was a judicial decision (that of Donoghue vs Stevenson) that created law in relation to negligence. In the example you provide, case law or Statute may dictate that people are not permitted to kill burglars, if it is Statute, then this may only be overturned by further Statute or judicial review of the existing Statute (to establish whether the law is lawful), however, if it is case law, then either later case law or Statute may overturn it. Again, it's been a while since I studied any law books, so corrections are welcome.

I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

ID: 1156462 · Report as offensive
bobby
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 22 Mar 02
Posts: 2866
Credit: 17,789,109
RAC: 3
United States
Message 1156468 - Posted: 27 Sep 2011, 0:01:04 UTC - in response to Message 1156453.  
Last modified: 27 Sep 2011, 0:02:17 UTC

Odds on that we won't. The judge stated earlier today in court that the original Eviction Notices were not clearly defined & that now some of the illegal plots are to remain...so to remove those Basildon Council will have to restart legal precedings again from the beginning with regards to those plots.

That tells me precisely what direction the case will take on Thursday.


Indeed, if the application of the planning byelaws was not lawful, then the judge may dismiss Basildon's case. At which point it will be up to Basildon to decide whether it will restart proceedings in a lawful manner as indicated by the judge's decision (in such matters judges typically provide the grounds for reaching a decision together with directions to later cases regarding which elements being different would have resulted in a different decision being made). The rule of law is not simply that there are laws to which we must obey, it also calls for authorities to be lawful when applying law, for instance by upholding due process.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

ID: 1156468 · Report as offensive
Profile Michael John Hind
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 6 Feb 07
Posts: 1330
Credit: 3,632,028
RAC: 0
United Kingdom
Message 1156474 - Posted: 27 Sep 2011, 0:20:12 UTC - in response to Message 1156453.  

Odds on that we won't. The judge stated earlier today in court that the original Eviction Notices were not clearly defined & that now some of the illegal plots are to remain...so to remove those Basildon Council will have to restart legal precedings again from the beginning with regards to those plots.

That tells me precisely what direction the case will take on Thursday.


Getting it wrong does not say much about those in the councils legal department!

If your capable, you practice in the big cities.
If your fairly good you practice in the towns
If your mediocre you take-up politics and become an M.P
If your pretty useless at it you go and work for the local council.
If your an absolute waste of space at it you can hope to become P.M one day.

A prime example of permitted thread post "Troll speak"
ID: 1156474 · Report as offensive
Sirius B Project Donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Dec 00
Posts: 24570
Credit: 3,081,182
RAC: 7
Ireland
Message 1156579 - Posted: 27 Sep 2011, 10:22:14 UTC - in response to Message 1156474.  
Last modified: 27 Sep 2011, 10:22:31 UTC

Snipped

If your capable, you practice in the big cities.
If your fairly good you practice in the towns
If your mediocre you take-up politics and become an M.P
If your pretty useless at it you go and work for the local council.
If your an absolute waste of space at it you can hope to become P.M one day.



ROFLMAO. Have cut & pasted this...I love it.
ID: 1156579 · Report as offensive
Sirius B Project Donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Dec 00
Posts: 24570
Credit: 3,081,182
RAC: 7
Ireland
Message 1157011 - Posted: 29 Sep 2011, 9:04:30 UTC
Last modified: 29 Sep 2011, 9:04:53 UTC

One must be able to read situations & people & with the state of this country for the past 2 decades, that is becoming easier & easier....

As I've already stated...the Human Rights Act would have somehow been brought into play..well here we are....

Travellers Seek Unlawful Ruling under the Human Rights Act
ID: 1157011 · Report as offensive
Sirius B Project Donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Dec 00
Posts: 24570
Credit: 3,081,182
RAC: 7
Ireland
Message 1157062 - Posted: 29 Sep 2011, 12:33:23 UTC - in response to Message 1157057.  
Last modified: 29 Sep 2011, 12:33:55 UTC

No, their lawyers are paid up front initially from all the illegal gains they have & these lawyers know this.

I've said it regardless of what law case it is, lawyers always win.

I don't think the B-Liar Witch wants to get involved with this in case it taints her celebrity status......
ID: 1157062 · Report as offensive
bobby
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 22 Mar 02
Posts: 2866
Credit: 17,789,109
RAC: 3
United States
Message 1157065 - Posted: 29 Sep 2011, 12:43:50 UTC - in response to Message 1157011.  

One must be able to read situations & people & with the state of this country for the past 2 decades, that is becoming easier & easier....

As I've already stated...the Human Rights Act would have somehow been brought into play..well here we are....

Travellers Seek Unlawful Ruling under the Human Rights Act


"Mr Willers said: "This claim is brought on this basis: there is no alternative, suitable accommodation at this point in time, and it would be disproportionate to be forced to leave in the absence of such accommodation."

It was not being suggested that Ms Sheridan felt she had any hope or prospect of being granted planning permission at Dale Farm in the future. The judge heard the other claims for judicial review would raise several other legal issues under human rights legislation and planning law.


Says to me that human rights issues have not yet been brought before a court, though this does appear to indicate there is intent to do so, whether this attempt is successful remains to be seen.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

ID: 1157065 · Report as offensive
bobby
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 22 Mar 02
Posts: 2866
Credit: 17,789,109
RAC: 3
United States
Message 1157069 - Posted: 29 Sep 2011, 13:04:05 UTC - in response to Message 1157057.  

These guys obviously have enough funds to have access to quite clever legal advice. The only thing that puzzles me is why Cherie Booth hasn't pitched in, this sort of thing is right up that mad cow's street. And where is tree hugger Vanessa come to that?

All this is just delaying tactics, and they have yet another hearing on Monday, whatever the outcome of todays session. I wonder if their lawyers are working on a no win no fee basis?

BBC News


There is always the possibility that some or all the legal advice is being provided pro bono. It is also possible that there has been some funds collected specifically for the case.

If Cherie Booth, QC (a.k.a. Cherie Blair) were a poster to Seti@Home I'm sure she'd object to the description "mad cow" which I do not believe you have shown is deserved. It may well be Cherie could show that her current case load does not provide her with time to assist with the Travellers case. Why associate this QC specifically when, to date I don't believe we have any evidence that she has an interest in the case?

I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

ID: 1157069 · Report as offensive
Sirius B Project Donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Dec 00
Posts: 24570
Credit: 3,081,182
RAC: 7
Ireland
Message 1157074 - Posted: 29 Sep 2011, 13:40:20 UTC

One point that sorely sticks out but not covered anywhere is the fact that they are travellers, claiming benefits, ignoring planning laws, paying no income tax, council tax...in other words, clearly flouting the laws of society...

...so WHY hasn't anyone come up with the point that as they consider themselves outside society, any local authority shouldn't have to provide alternative accomodation for the very fact that their lifestyle is travelling?

Why should fixed accomodation be provided? If one puts oneself outside of society, one cannot then expect that society to cater for you when you hit a problem.

Where is the Inland Revenue to investigate the finances available to purchase their suv's & other purchases?
ID: 1157074 · Report as offensive
Iona
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 12 Jul 07
Posts: 790
Credit: 22,438,118
RAC: 0
United Kingdom
Message 1158652 - Posted: 3 Oct 2011, 23:14:04 UTC - in response to Message 1158498.  

This small delay, should give the 'missing men' sufficient time to 'acquire' the much-liked, cash, for the purposes of whatever they want. They pay no taxes of any kind. They receive/con benefits (using 'communal children' for Child Benefits). They steal virtually anything that is not near an 'event horizon'. These people have property that many, where they currently 'reside', would regard as 'Heaven'. They have 'played the system' for years, aided by people who have 'private means' to cause trouble. Frankly, the 'face' that is presented by these people, is not one that many in the Basildon area would recognise. If these people were the law-abiding folks, that they claim to be, there would be no huge problem with them. However, these people don't give a fig about anyone but themselves and only what they can 'screw' out of any system, that was there to help the needy! You certainly won't see any residents of Basildon, with rolls of cash, as they have. Its always cash. Virtually undetectable.

Imagine your worst next-door-neighbour; ever. Now multiply that by ten. Believe me, thats a long way short of these 'travellers'. Travellers who stay in one place! There are rich pickings to be had (by theft and con) in this area....thats why they don't 'travel'!!! Last and least, don't believe that the pictures that you see in the papers are of 'travellers', as, numerous groups of people are now posing for the photographs of 'travellers', while actually being from 'well-off' families in England.






Don't take life too seriously, as you'll never come out of it alive!
ID: 1158652 · Report as offensive
Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 25 Dec 00
Posts: 29434
Credit: 53,134,872
RAC: 32
United States
Message 1158698 - Posted: 4 Oct 2011, 2:21:41 UTC

Just give them a little American Justice. Before they get a chance to go back to their home, seize it and sell it to cover the court costs of their endless appeals. Then they really will be a traveler!

ID: 1158698 · Report as offensive
bobby
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 22 Mar 02
Posts: 2866
Credit: 17,789,109
RAC: 3
United States
Message 1158783 - Posted: 4 Oct 2011, 12:02:54 UTC

This is interesting, and, if true, may demonstrate that Basildon does not enforce planning permission laws uniformly:

The Dale Farm campaigners have found documents, and a first hand witness who’ll give statements, that Gridley’s property, Windy Ridge, was “unlawfully built.” It was built on the same greenbelt that’s being used as the excuse to evict Dale Farm, and it was done without planning permission. The council served an enforcement notice on the property but never took action. Gridley later applied for, and got, planning permission to continue the development.

I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

ID: 1158783 · Report as offensive
Profile Michael John Hind
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 6 Feb 07
Posts: 1330
Credit: 3,632,028
RAC: 0
United Kingdom
Message 1158788 - Posted: 4 Oct 2011, 12:12:07 UTC - in response to Message 1158783.  

This is interesting, and, if true, may demonstrate that Basildon does not enforce planning permission laws uniformly:

The Dale Farm campaigners have found documents, and a first hand witness who’ll give statements, that Gridley’s property, Windy Ridge, was “unlawfully built.” It was built on the same greenbelt that’s being used as the excuse to evict Dale Farm, and it was done without planning permission. The council served an enforcement notice on the property but never took action. Gridley later applied for, and got, planning permission to continue the development.


"Unauthoried Building Application" A form you fill out at the councils discretion if your building is deemed to have required planning permission prior to having been built without planning permission. A cheats form that somehow lets you get away with a building construction that had you officially applied for planning permission, in the first place, the authority to build would then not have been given.
ID: 1158788 · Report as offensive
Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 25 Dec 00
Posts: 29434
Credit: 53,134,872
RAC: 32
United States
Message 1158850 - Posted: 4 Oct 2011, 21:17:16 UTC - in response to Message 1158758.  

Before they get a chance to go back to their home, seize it and sell it to cover the court costs of their endless appeals. Then they really will be a traveler!


They actually bought the land and own it quite legally, so it couldn't be sold over their heads without a compulsory purchase order, which I doubt the Council would get.

In an American civil court, frequently the looser has to pay court costs and legal fees of both sides. It is a easy matter to get an order to enforce payment of a debt which lets you grab anything you can find and sell at auction to satisfy the debt. Think of the Goldman family and OJ Simpson. I wasn't suggesting the Dale Farm property either, but their nice legal one month a year homes.

ID: 1158850 · Report as offensive
Profile John Clark
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 29 Sep 99
Posts: 16515
Credit: 4,418,829
RAC: 0
United Kingdom
Message 1159748 - Posted: 7 Oct 2011, 13:15:58 UTC
Last modified: 7 Oct 2011, 13:17:45 UTC

I see the news on an illegal traveller moving on to green belt land and then developing it, despite a court order not to do so, was jailed for 4 months.

I surmise that "if the action taken here to get a court order forbidding the land development was done more often and quickly. Then the head of the traveller family then jsiled for contenpt of court, I think this would become a thing of the past very quickly."

Pity that was not the action taken at Dale Farm 10 years ago.
It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues



ID: 1159748 · Report as offensive
Sirius B Project Donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Dec 00
Posts: 24570
Credit: 3,081,182
RAC: 7
Ireland
Message 1159873 - Posted: 7 Oct 2011, 18:22:07 UTC - in response to Message 1159748.  

I see the news on an illegal traveller moving on to green belt land and then developing it, despite a court order not to do so, was jailed for 4 months.

I surmise that "if the action taken here to get a court order forbidding the land development was done more often and quickly. Then the head of the traveller family then jsiled for contenpt of court, I think this would become a thing of the past very quickly."

Pity that was not the action taken at Dale Farm 10 years ago.



Aw, c'mon.....the local jobsworths must have a valid reason to increase the annual Council Tax rates......
ID: 1159873 · Report as offensive
Profile John Clark
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 29 Sep 99
Posts: 16515
Credit: 4,418,829
RAC: 0
United Kingdom
Message 1160564 - Posted: 9 Oct 2011, 13:32:13 UTC

Some hope!

Their lawyers will find another pretext funded by legal aid.
It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues



ID: 1160564 · Report as offensive
Sirius B Project Donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Dec 00
Posts: 24570
Credit: 3,081,182
RAC: 7
Ireland
Message 1161532 - Posted: 12 Oct 2011, 16:12:02 UTC

ID: 1161532 · Report as offensive
Profile John Clark
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 29 Sep 99
Posts: 16515
Credit: 4,418,829
RAC: 0
United Kingdom
Message 1162287 - Posted: 14 Oct 2011, 19:39:02 UTC

So, when will it happen, then?
It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues



ID: 1162287 · Report as offensive
Previous · 1 · 2 · 3 · 4 · 5 · 6 · Next

Message boards : Politics : Dale Farm Travellers


 
©2022 University of California
 
SETI@home and Astropulse are funded by grants from the National Science Foundation, NASA, and donations from SETI@home volunteers. AstroPulse is funded in part by the NSF through grant AST-0307956.