Dale Farm Travellers

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Tom95134

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Message 1153349 - Posted: 17 Sep 2011, 21:56:37 UTC - in response to Message 1153147.  

As you rightly say, these reports need to be confirmed. But what this also does do is underline my original contention (disputed by others)that, there are a number of different social classes involved here. There are undoubtedly some original Romany Gypsies there, there are some New Age Travellers known as Pikeys, and there are some known as Irish Tinkers.

What we are now hearing is that there is another group, who have serious property assets back in Ireland, and obviously not short of money, or an alternative place to live. So why are they here? Why live in a caravan in England when you have a lovely house back home? It doesn't make any sense, unless it is a scam to claim benefits in both countries?

But more to the point, there are elderly people there, and others that may genuinely not have anywhere to go, and of course the welfare of the children needs to taken into consideration. The eviction will happen, it just has to, but I wouldn't want to be the man in charge of it. A classic lose/lose situation.

What has this to do with social classes?

From their web site:
it [the property] was a scrapyard before it was purchased by Travellers as a site to build their homes.


Are there no zoning laws to control where residences can be built? A former scrap yard is not normally zoned for residential use simply because of the hazardous material that may have leaked into the soil.

Clearly the judge thinks the settlement is illegal and now it's just a matter of clearing the people off the land. A simple process once the legal decisions have been handed down.

Also, if you look at the photos, it's clear that the surrounding land isn't residential either.

IMO, this is a case of someone (a group) buying a piece of property (which may have been originally purchased for vehicle storage) and then illegally converting it for another purpose.
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Message 1153522 - Posted: 18 Sep 2011, 9:13:36 UTC - in response to Message 1153147.  

Oh, believe me, Chris, the ownership of these properties in ROI has been common knowledge around here for years. Hence, there has been little sympathy for these people. It has to be said though, that the main reason that there is so little sympathy for the 'travellers', is because they live 'outside the law'; all their dealings are in cash, so they pay no taxes, they own rather expensive cars and 4X4s and wherever they go, scams and thefts are rife. I have personally, disturbed Irish accented men, attempting to steal sit-on mowers, leaf blowers and other associated machinery from a Council Depot, about five years ago - it might have been foolish, but after calling the Police, I chased after them in my car and lost them on the A127. I only lost them because I was not prepared to drive like a maniac. The Police drew a blank with the number-plate, too - without doubt it was a fake plate and I'll bet that it was not insured or had a valid MOT test certificate and it was fuelled with stolen diesel fuel.

Is it pure coincidence, that in recent weeks, the frequency of cable thefts from the nearby railways, has soared, as have the usual scams associated with these people? Would this be because they will soon be having to move on? In the last few weeks, in the Borough in which I work, "men with Irish accents" have scammed a number of elderly people, using their preffered method of conning people out of money....the tarmac drive work. One old lady was conned out of some £800 through this device; basically (perhaps foolishly) because she was of limited means, she agreed to let a gang of these crooks do her driveway, as it was in need of repair. When 'the work' was done they asked her to look at the work, whilst not allowing her to take a close look (they crowded her to her porch) and seeing a nice black surface, she paid the much favoured cash, out of her savings....these nasty pieces of filth had PAINTED the drive and this was only noticed by a neighbour. Personally, I'm not sure what to make of these 'travellers' who don't travel, but in ROI, they are hated. Justifiably so, I'd say. Save your sympathy for the people who are deliberately targetted by these crooks without a conscience.

As for the 'UN Delegation', put your own damned house in order, with respect to some of the countries represented, both at the UN and amongst the 'delegation'. Is China really in a position, to lecture anyone on anything? Just don't get me started on some of the African nations!


[/b]
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Message 1153657 - Posted: 18 Sep 2011, 18:09:19 UTC - in response to Message 1153535.  

The tarmaccing scam has been going on since WWII, and my parents in Devon nearly got conned once, but luckily I was down there at the time and shooed them off. I reported it to the police but they weren't interested. All they said was that they were from a group that were passing through, and in a couple of days they'd be off their patch and someone elses problem.

Same scam across the pond too. Wonder where their scam school is located and if we should call in a NATO strike on it? And you have summed up the police response pretty well which is why they are so damn successful in what they do.


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Message 1155258 - Posted: 23 Sep 2011, 15:11:58 UTC - in response to Message 1155209.  

Yet another ploy, by people breaking the law, to circumvent the same system of law that they hold in contempt. Puxon is well-known and hugely hated in these parts, as are his band of 'poor innocents'. When the term "Gypsy Council" is used, you also have to be aware of which 'Gypsy Council' is being referred to - there are, actually, two in the UK. The 'other Gypsy Council' is of the opinion that the 'residents' of Dale Farm should move, interestingly. Puxon is a master of exaggeration and has, in the past, tried to 'romantically' imply that these people are penniless nomads and are Roma. Thats 'a bit of a stretch' to say the least! The nearest that any of this lot have been to Romania, is that one of them (name withheld) has a property in Belgium! Housing benefits that have been paid to these 'travellers' are, oddly enough, paid to an acount in ROI, which, also oddly enough, is in the same town that most of them are from. The prosection rests....



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Message 1155363 - Posted: 23 Sep 2011, 18:37:04 UTC - in response to Message 1155345.  

When we are talking about the gipsy, or in Portugal "Ethnical minorities, I already know what the goal of such people is. They live in the limits of the law, they don’t pay taxes, but they have all the social benefits.

I know this minority to well, some/majority are decent people, others they think that tradition is stronger than the law of the land where they are or live.

However from the moment you are smart enough to get social benefits then as a minority law should be obeyed. Is good life, when you only have benefits and no obligations whatsoever to society.

In this case from what I could understand, they occupied a piece of land, and now due to legal constrains there is an eviction order.

I’m sure that with some compensation they would move without hesitation, because in this case money will overcome “traditicion”.
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Message 1155393 - Posted: 23 Sep 2011, 20:47:58 UTC - in response to Message 1155372.  
Last modified: 23 Sep 2011, 20:48:24 UTC

Rather interesting article here .....

Genuine travellers

Seems to confirm all my earlier points :-)


All? Here's one at random:

Chris wrote:
What we are now hearing is that there is another group, who have serious property assets back in Ireland, and obviously not short of money, or an alternative place to live. So why are they here? Why live in a caravan in England when you have a lovely house back home? It doesn't make any sense, unless it is a scam to claim benefits in both countries?


While the BBC article says:

BBC wrote:
Many travellers, including those from Dale Farm, describe Rathkeale in County Limerick as their spiritual home, says BBC Look East correspondent Sally Chidzoy, who visited the Irish town earlier this month.


A "spiritual home" is a "serious property asset"? Also the BBC article suggests that the appearance of not being short of money may be deceptive.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1155652 - Posted: 24 Sep 2011, 16:07:47 UTC - in response to Message 1155571.  
Last modified: 24 Sep 2011, 16:19:04 UTC

All? Here's one at random:

OK, I'll modify that to "most" if you want to split hairs. The point I was making was quoted in the article, namely

A lot of Romany Gypsies are very angry at Irish Travellers in terms of the way our two identities are confused," says Jake Bowers, a Romany Gypsy journalist who writes for the Travellers' Times


There is a group hanging on to the coat tails of another group for their own ends.


I'm not sure that a statement saying that two communities are often confused is confirmation that one group "hangs on to the coat tails of another" for any particular reason, though even if I do accept it, that's one confirmed and another not, I would not consider 50/50 "most". Call it more hair splitting if you will, if prefer the term critical thinking, though it is your claim to defend.

As it is your latest claim is not supported by the quote you used, the anger of Romany Gypsies towards Irish Travellers does not mean that the Irish Travellers are the cause of the confusion between the two communities, and certainly does not confirm that one group is "hanging on to the coat tails" of the other, nor does it indicate a motive for doing so, and you've already conceded the "serious property asset" as not confirmed by the BBC article, by my count that's 0 for 2.

A "spiritual home" is a "serious property asset"?

Of course it isn't and I never suggested it was! Dunno how you came to that conclusion.


I had thought the context was clear, you had asserted that travellers had serious property assets in Ireland. The only reference to Ireland in the article was the one I quoted. Unless you were asserting that a "spiritual home" should be considered a "serious property asset", your claim that all your earlier points were confirmed by the BBC article is false. Does that help?

Also the BBC article suggests that the appearance of not being short of money may be deceptive.

Maybe, but I don't see any evidence of poverty down there, most seem in quite rude health and wearing decent clothes. They can find money to buy land without any problem.


BBC wrote:
They often value visible signs of wealth.
[...]
Ms O'Malley added that communities also lent money amongst themselves, so people who appeared poor could spend a lot of money on a wedding because the community had given it to them.


Perhaps the practice of lending money within a community is also used for land purchases. What you "see" may be masking underlying poverty. Whatever the case, the article does not confirm the assertaion that the Dale Farm (or indeed any) travellers are "not short of money". Nor does it state that the Dale Farm (or indeed any) travellers had no problems finding money to buy land. 0 for 3.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1155677 - Posted: 24 Sep 2011, 17:20:07 UTC - in response to Message 1155656.  
Last modified: 24 Sep 2011, 17:20:52 UTC

0 for 3.


Are we having a serious discussion or playing cricket?


Does a serious discussion preclude having fun?

There is a group down at Dale Farm that are basically New Age Travellers, hoping to gain public support for their lifestyle by associating themselves with genuine Romany Gypsys. I can see that and so can Jake Bowers. At this stage in their campaign they are chucking everything in bar the kitchen sink, which will probably be next.


The same Jake Bowers that says:

"We're two separate ethnic groups. Whilst there is some conflict because people inhabit the same social and physical space, there is some kind of harmony; some inter-marry and live alongside each other."
?

I do not see anything in the article that suggests Jake Bowers believes that the group at Dale Farm are "New Age Travellers", or that the group at Dale Farm are associating their lifestyles with "Genuine Romany Gypsys", nor that doing so would help them gain public support. Indeed I do not see any comments attributed to Mr Bowers relating directly to Dale Farm. 0 for 4.

I really haven't got the time to spend on detailed dissection of minutiae. I have to live with this in my country, you don't, so quite why you are getting so het up about it, I'm not sure.


Whose country? Last time I checked my UK passport I was still a British Citizen. All my direct family members live in the UK. That I may live outside of the UK does not mean it's internal matters are of no interest to me. "het up" what leads you to believe that I am angry or upset?

It is a nice warm late autumn day out there, so I'm going for a walk in the fresh air, which will be a lot more beneficial to me than posting here. Chris 0, Bobby 3, Bobby wins, all hail Bobby. Rush would be proud of you.


Meh.

Assertions supported by the BBC article 0,
Assertions not supported by the BBC article 4.

It's not about me, and I'm not trying to win anything. You made a claim, I challenged it, you modified the claim, I challenged the modified claim and provided my reasons for doing so via a score card. If you want to claim some piece of evidence supports what you are saying, the evidence has to state what you are saying it states, so far you have failed to do so.

Hope you enjoy the fresh air.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1155729 - Posted: 24 Sep 2011, 20:27:59 UTC

Don't feed the Bobby!
It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues



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Message 1155755 - Posted: 24 Sep 2011, 21:29:28 UTC - in response to Message 1155729.  
Last modified: 24 Sep 2011, 21:31:32 UTC

Don't feed the Bobby!


DNFTT? Really? That accusation again? You were wrong the last time, and I showed you how. Please take it back.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1155776 - Posted: 24 Sep 2011, 23:07:59 UTC
Last modified: 24 Sep 2011, 23:17:39 UTC

You did not prove your point in my view.

Your posts towards the two discussions from both Chris and myself reinforces my view I am dealing with a person wanting to argue minutia. This minutia wants others to prove statements (not a claim) using third party independent links, and this in a discussion thread (not a debating society).

The fact we are making points from our own experience of the times 50 or more years ago are personal, and need no independent academic verification. Indeed, many other posters of our age group, but possibly younger, make the same observations. Taken together these views do constitute a common view of how things have changed.

In the discussion here points have been made about ethnic differences of the Travellers, most of which are correctly accepted by UK society. None of these need a proof, they are a discussion and not an academic dissertation where proofs are required for your degree/diploma/higher degree.

I certainly know that when I am putting R&D project together for submission, that to make a claim I need to validate this with independent proof. For example "The state of the technology art" currently available, and the capabilities and limitations of that technology against the R&D specifications of which I want to develop. This will include full IPR research, comment and disclosure.

For these R&D project submissions, getting it right will result in good assessor scores and recommendations of support. Successful support usually results in external support to the tune of £1.1million. Now that is worth going for.

Trying to obtain the same rigor in this thread is subjective, at best, and opinion most of the time. This is true when considering the backing links claiming proof, which, when being examined, are opinion in themselves.

When discussions turn to minutia and, really opinion or trivia, then the instigator is leaning to trolling. But, more importantly, the thread is still a discussion and there is no real motivation to argue.

I do believe you are effectively trolling by the attitude, application and approach you take here. So, I am not really inclined to withdraw either of my comments. But, in this instance I will withdraw the comment, with massive reservations over my action.

NB: Sarge assumed I know who you are, a position I am unable to confirm. Perhaps you can enlighten me?


I will be interested, but not necessarily respond, to your reply to this post. From past replies I can see deliberate misunderstanding and obfuscation. But, then I am probably significantly biased in my expectations already.

Now back to the subject under discussion in this thread - The Dale Farm Travellers appeal against their eviction! Also, discussions, views, observations on their possible ethnic origins or groups involved.
It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues



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Message 1155907 - Posted: 25 Sep 2011, 9:08:41 UTC

Agreed Chris, this is a UK issue and will have implications for other similar "in the green belt" settlements. Which, from anecdotal evidence, may have risen years ago from a change in the law, and strong enforcement, back in Ireland.

The most likely effect any enforcement, or other on Dale Farm illegal settlers, might be a view by the elected officials in other countries who have similar issues to the UK in this regard.

Regarding my spat, I will continue our conversation by PM as there are other things to learn.
It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues



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Message 1155961 - Posted: 25 Sep 2011, 13:46:37 UTC - in response to Message 1155776.  

Absolutely well put....& that statement covers other topics on this forum. There seems to be too many trolls ignoring the discussuion in question & demanding verifying proof as if these forums are taking place in courtrooms.
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Message 1156031 - Posted: 25 Sep 2011, 17:33:32 UTC - in response to Message 1155961.  
Last modified: 25 Sep 2011, 17:34:22 UTC

Absolutely well put....& that statement covers other topics on this forum. There seems to be too many trolls ignoring the discussuion in question & demanding verifying proof as if these forums are taking place in courtrooms.


I agree with you too Sirius, this is a forum and not a court room.
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Message 1156108 - Posted: 25 Sep 2011, 22:39:08 UTC - in response to Message 1156089.  

Depending upon what happens it could have far reaching effects upon the UK, and indeed maybe upon other countries. That is the more important point, and it would be a real shame if the Mods felt they had to lock it.


Agreed. Could you add a little detail on the far reaching effects? So far I had thought that this was confined to what is effectively a planning permission dispute and was being assessed on that basis regardless of what the celebrity supporters may say. Is there a human rights element that is now within the scope of the court's decision?
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1156121 - Posted: 25 Sep 2011, 23:22:27 UTC

I believe you are right in that statement, Bobby.

This is now an issue over planning.

I speculate that the 10 year delay on the final eviction has come about from the UK Human Rights Act. I have no proof, but there are many news articles reporting on the Dale Farm appeals under the Human Rights. This could be presumed to be the main reason for these delays.

Supposition and opinion on my part.
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Message 1156124 - Posted: 25 Sep 2011, 23:30:53 UTC - in response to Message 1156121.  
Last modified: 25 Sep 2011, 23:31:40 UTC

I believe you are right in that statement, Bobby.

This is now an issue over planning.

I speculate that the 10 year delay on the final eviction has come about from the UK Human Rights Act. I have no proof, but there are many news articles reporting on the Dale Farm appeals under the Human Rights. This could be presumed to be the main reason for these delays.

Supposition and opinion on my part.


Not much of an Act John if it takes 10 years to clear some of it's hurdles though.
It's taken far too long in resolving this current travelers issue irrespective of whether the Gypsies have or have not broken the law.
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Message 1156125 - Posted: 25 Sep 2011, 23:36:27 UTC - in response to Message 1156124.  

Simple enough answer & maybe we'll be able to get Britain back on an even keel again.....

...repeal the "Human Rights Act"
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Message 1156135 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 0:08:49 UTC - in response to Message 1156125.  
Last modified: 26 Sep 2011, 0:12:25 UTC

Simple enough answer & maybe we'll be able to get Britain back on an even keel again.....

...repeal the "Human Rights Act"


That's what many people are asking for. But on repeal it will only
get replaced by another form of act. One so designed to help contradict
current other laws such that it will still afford solicitors, barristers
and judges the opportunity to earn fortunes from it. Lets face it, most
of our politicians tend to come from this fraternity so will make sure
the act is so unworkable that the profession will gain from it. ***** comes
to mind here, the Cheshire cat one, gained handsomely by having the other
half sat in "you know where" for many years.
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Message 1156140 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 0:18:03 UTC - in response to Message 1156135.  

Oh you mean the "B-Liar Witch Project"....never seen it, probably just as bad as the real McCoy.....
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