UK Riots

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Profile Michael John Hind
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Message 1149172 - Posted: 5 Sep 2011, 15:06:17 UTC - in response to Message 1149163.  

Some will thing I’m crazy, what is not far far from reality, but after I finished university or college for our American members I had to serve in the armed forces for 18 months.
It got worse, because after my basic training I had to go to Bosnia, but now I can say that I’ve learned a lot a human being.
During basic training I meet a lot of thugs, teenagers without a future or any vision, and I can say that after the service they learned a trade that fit them, and now they both also have civic values, but also they are hard workers in the trade they learned there.
Conscription gave them the opportunities that they will not have if they stayed in their hood. They were already delinquents and they were going to became criminals.
Somehow service forces them to have the discipline and gave them civic values. Maybe is stupid, and non democratic, but in my opinion when there is this gap of values in society, the only organization capable of filling it with values, liked discipline, respecting and hierarchy, and even teaching a good trade is the armed forces.
Conscription was created to give civic values training to the common person, but it seems that the thugs, who made the riot, never had them.
I’m in favor of having conscription all over again, because yes, it was a pain in the behind, but at the end you would learn things and you would meet people that you would remember for life.



Well said Doc.


Yup, me too here Sirius. We've been down this discussion road before. A lot of
old balarney has been said about the evils of having the military sort you out if your the ill-disciplined type. Total rubbish for I know, I spent 20 years on MOD contract work fulfilling the role of a military man. I know how their system works, it works to make a success out of all who pass through their doors, so to speak. I worked on the technical side whilst I was with the MOD so know that 5 years conscription for young thugs, louts and the ferrule types along with military trade training will produce outstanding results.
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Message 1149182 - Posted: 5 Sep 2011, 15:49:09 UTC

Bringing back conscription would work for some, but not for not all. In some cases putting a young thug in the army will just produce a professional thug, and a trained killer.

Call up and conscription worked well from the end of WWII to 1960, with last coming out in 1963. Partly due to the fact that the UK were not fighting the wars abroad that we are now, excepting Malaya of course. You did get taught discipline and a trade, and the worst that was likely to happen was square bashing at Aldershot.

The army are not going to want to be saddled with young rioters for 2 years, and having to be like surrogate parents. They haven't got the men or the facilities. You'd have the Red Caps chasing absconders all around the country. After their 6 months basic training they would and could be deployed to a theatre of war.

Can you imagine the public outcry when the first 1/2 dozen get killed in action in Afghanistan, "He only stole an ipad, now he's dead".

Much better to bring back the Borstals, staffed by retired Forces personnel, and I think there is some sort of similar plan being looked at. We don't want dead rioters, we want reformed ones.
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Message 1149189 - Posted: 5 Sep 2011, 16:09:35 UTC

This tugs, have no civic knowledge, they don’t give a shit about society or your fellow man, and I rather save a few than lost everyone. Because with conscription you can end with some professional tugs, with the current system all tugs/ delinquents, will became professional criminals after some time in prison.
Because for this guys the question is not if they are going to prison, but when…. And once inside they just became professionals. Is like losing your virginity…..
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Message 1149192 - Posted: 5 Sep 2011, 16:15:38 UTC - in response to Message 1149182.  

Bringing back conscription would work for some, but not for not all. In some cases putting a young thug in the army will just produce a professional thug, and a trained killer.

Call up and conscription worked well from the end of WWII to 1960, with last coming out in 1963. Partly due to the fact that the UK were not fighting the wars abroad that we are now, excepting Malaya of course. You did get taught discipline and a trade, and the worst that was likely to happen was square bashing at Aldershot.

The army are not going to want to be saddled with young rioters for 2 years, and having to be like surrogate parents. They haven't got the men or the facilities. You'd have the Red Caps chasing absconders all around the country. After their 6 months basic training they would and could be deployed to a theatre of war.

Can you imagine the public outcry when the first 1/2 dozen get killed in action in Afghanistan, "He only stole an ipad, now he's dead".

Much better to bring back the Borstals, staffed by retired Forces personnel, and I think there is some sort of similar plan being looked at. We don't want dead rioters, we want reformed ones.


Good point Chris but I would go as far as to say that the Army would be excluded from this exercise where training louts in armed combat was involved. It would purely involve these types being trained in skills useful to mainstream industry.
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Message 1149207 - Posted: 5 Sep 2011, 16:42:46 UTC
Last modified: 5 Sep 2011, 16:43:37 UTC

Because for this guys the question is not if they are going to prison, but when…. And once inside they just became professionals. Is like losing your virginity


Doesn't mean that all of them will be any better at it afterwards though ;-)

But of course some of the hardest will go on to become professional criminals, but it is likely the majority won't want a repeat dose. But all we are doing is treating the symptoms, we are not addressing the root cause here. Which is lack of good parenting, lack of education, and a general disregard for authority and society.

With Camerons initiative to mend the "Broken Society" I think there is a good chance we won't see the next generation behaving the same way. But I do think that this generation is becoming a lost cause. It's not really their fault, but no-one yet has come up with a plan to tackle it.
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Message 1149211 - Posted: 5 Sep 2011, 16:47:50 UTC

Well for those that enjoy using knives & guns & constantly buck the laws of society, scoop them all up & give them free reign in their use in........

Basra, Helmand Province, Tripoli, Sirte....

If they return home, arrest for murder, if they don't...well we won't miss them!
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Message 1149217 - Posted: 5 Sep 2011, 16:57:35 UTC - in response to Message 1149211.  

Well for those that enjoy using knives & guns & constantly buck the laws of society, scoop them all up & give them free reign in their use in........

Basra, Helmand Province, Tripoli, Sirte....

If they return home, arrest for murder, if they don't...well we won't miss them!


Sirius!!...your awful!!...Good job no one can here me laughing my socks off over that last comment above. And that might be because I'm in agreement here with you?
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Message 1149220 - Posted: 5 Sep 2011, 17:02:53 UTC

Think you got the wrong guy.....who's this Sirius you speak of?

My name's Dick Emery......"Ooooh, you are awful...but I like you"
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Message 1149335 - Posted: 5 Sep 2011, 20:49:08 UTC

In the past UK generations, where respect for the law was generally accepted, I think this comes from the experience of wars.

Up until our generation, the young people have been involved in a bloody war for each generation. Now we have not had a general war for 2 generations we have gotten the ferrel generation.

It looks like there should be another general blood letting to pass on these bad experiences.

All of which goes to show what a stupid animal humans are. Especially youngsters from the council estates and other ghettos. The problem seems to be that "they never learn from other's mistakes, and have to learn the hard way fro their own mistakes".
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Message 1149343 - Posted: 5 Sep 2011, 21:03:01 UTC

It looks like there should be another general blood letting to pass on these bad experiences.

Sorry, can't agree.
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Message 1149393 - Posted: 5 Sep 2011, 22:57:18 UTC

Yep, quite agree John. Every so often, seals,foxes & other animals are culled - I'm not for/against - it just is (mankind's stupidity maybe?).

Saying that up to 1945, there always seemed to be a major culling of the human race....

....so as I see it, we're 41 years overdue another.....what a boost for the current world economy...... WWIV anyone?
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Message 1149452 - Posted: 6 Sep 2011, 8:27:35 UTC

My comment was not based on !it's time for another war/blood letting". After all this was the founding principle of the Atom, coal and steel area that morphed in to the Common Market, we joined, and now to the entity we call the EU.

My comment is largely observational and how people behave after a disaster, like war.

Just goes to show this "intelligent animal" is a mess and stupid at it's base.
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Message 1149457 - Posted: 6 Sep 2011, 9:11:09 UTC
Last modified: 6 Sep 2011, 9:32:23 UTC

Since WW1 there seems to have been a major world conflict every 25 years or so, WW2 1939, Cuba 1964, Gulf war 1990, Iraq 2003, Libya 2011 etc.

In the case of Cuba Russia backed off. But we are getting them every 10-15 years now with Iraq and Libya. I class world conflicts where more than two nations takes part, or threatens to involve the rest of the world.

But the point I think people are trying to make is that we didn't have this feral disaffected generation in the past, because of military service due to conflicts or call-up. That is a valid observation worth making. But how we deal with the aftermath of these riots has still yet to be fully determined.

The full extent of the sentences and punishments is not yet clear, nor is the governments response, although Cameron is calling for urgent action. Some form of military correction is being proposed by some, but that is treating the symptoms and not the cause, and it is not clear whether that would be a deterrent to others in the future.
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Message 1149459 - Posted: 6 Sep 2011, 9:42:25 UTC

Boris Johnson Mayor of London giving evidence live to Parliamentary committee on the riots

The Mayor live
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Message 1149592 - Posted: 7 Sep 2011, 1:09:36 UTC - in response to Message 1149393.  
Last modified: 7 Sep 2011, 1:09:59 UTC

....so as I see it, we're 41 years overdue another.....what a boost for the current world economy...... WWIV anyone?


I guess you don't agree with the glazier's fallacy then?

I wonder which "major culling" of the human race you're referring to in 1970. Not the genocide in Cambodia (1975 - 1979), nor the more recent (1994) one in Rwanda.

Also unlikely is East Timor as again it's post 1970. As a model of the kind of governmental behavior we can all support, Indonesia's destruction by various means of between 1/6 and 1/3 of the native people of that small island, is just the kind of thing we need the UK government to employ with the feral families left to roam the High Street's of the once green and pleasant land. Right?
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1149594 - Posted: 7 Sep 2011, 1:14:21 UTC - in response to Message 1149592.  


I guess you don't agree with the glazier's fallacy then?

I wonder which "major culling" of the human race you're referring to in 1970. Not the genocide in Cambodia (1975 - 1979), nor the more recent (1994) one in Rwanda.

Also unlikely is East Timor as again it's post 1970. As a model of the kind of governmental behavior we can all support, Indonesia's destruction by various means of between 1/6 and 1/3 of the native people of that small island, is just the kind of thing we need the UK government to employ with the feral families left to roam the High Street's of the once green and pleasant land. Right?



Using an American military expression..they're all brushfire wars... I was referring to a World War...that is what the WW stands for you know.....
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Message 1149673 - Posted: 7 Sep 2011, 9:49:40 UTC

Probably WWIV is closer than we think. Europe and the US are declining in power, one of the reasons is because the population is getting older and older, and only growing due to immigration.
Europe and Us are receiving a lot of immigrants that when they arrive, they do not integrate, they create their own hoods, their own shops, they only speak their native language, in a word they create their own ghetto.
There are some examples in Germany with the Turkish community, In Belgium and France with the community from Argel.
Then we look to those countries and we see massive unemployment, corruption and no future. Even with all the revolutions that occurred in the north of Africa, from Tunis to Cairo, nothing will change and hope will soon be dead.
Then their eyes will turn again to Europe and the Us, the rich countries, the countries that explore them, the countries where right wing parties will also inflate hate against the minorities as they will get all the blame for the crisis that will get worse and worse.
The pot is already in the oven, now is just a question of mixing the right ingredients and….
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Message 1150391 - Posted: 9 Sep 2011, 12:58:34 UTC

Worth trying I suppose, but it will soon turn into can't pay, won't pay .....

Truancy measures
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Message 1150408 - Posted: 9 Sep 2011, 13:36:53 UTC

Hee! Hee!

If they won't pay, then we can have our pound of flesh.

<rubs hands together, in a washing motion>
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Message 1150425 - Posted: 9 Sep 2011, 15:04:54 UTC - in response to Message 1150408.  

Hee! Hee!

If they won't pay, then we can have our pound of flesh.

<rubs hands together, in a washing motion>


Though "no jot of blood", right? Or do you wish to be known as more cruel than Shylock?
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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