UK Riots

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Message 1137154 - Posted: 7 Aug 2011, 10:05:32 UTC

Social Networking has only made it easier to organise, but before SN became available, it was still being organised via the Net or via Mobile Phones, so Twitter & the like cannot be held to blame.

It has been reported that the police returned fire after being fired upon, but until this has been confirmed, one can't comment on that.

Broadwater Farm since the early 80's has been a major drug warren & at one point, it was a total No-Go Zone for the police. Matters may have quietened down some since October 1985, but nothing has changed much in that area.
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Message 1137160 - Posted: 7 Aug 2011, 10:36:22 UTC

was watching it all lat night on sky news, looked pretty bad



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Message 1137162 - Posted: 7 Aug 2011, 10:51:43 UTC

Yes, I saw that as well & again this morning on BBC News. Fire crews were still putting out fires on burning buildings.

Ferry Lane where the shooting occured is a major artery through that side of North London with very little shops/built up area until you get to Forest Road.

The easiest targets for arson/looting from Ferry Lane is where it all happened. Seven Sisters/Tottenham High Road which is still a fair distance from Tottenham Hale station, so the arson & looting had to be deliberate.
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Message 1137365 - Posted: 7 Aug 2011, 19:34:06 UTC

The Met should replace everyone above CS rank with Army staff, and make it into a para-military force. Then we will avoid this sort of thing in future.


i couldn't agree more with you :D
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Message 1137382 - Posted: 7 Aug 2011, 20:11:26 UTC

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Message 1137568 - Posted: 8 Aug 2011, 9:53:32 UTC

Well with politicians in the US fighting amongst themselves rather than attempting to help their country recover & with European politicians taking holidays at a much publicised £10,000 per week, which is 2 years gross income for many here, I expect a lot more to oocur, unfortunately.

Our politicians won't increase police numbers, in fact they doing their damndest to reduce their numbers, & they certainly won't allow the army in on a semi-permanent to permanent basis, so I think its time conscription was reintroduced.

I'm pretty sure that many of these idiots would think twice about vandalism if they knew that they'd be sent into the armed forces & possibly have to serve in Iraq or Afghanistan, rather than be sent to prison.


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Message 1137571 - Posted: 8 Aug 2011, 10:32:42 UTC

Hardly "UK Riots". Not even London Riots since it is rioting in Tottenham that spilled over into a few other London areas. I'm sure the London Metropolitan Police can deal with this without suggestions of turning the UK into a para-military force state. There are no riots where I live, nor the rest of 99.99% in the UK.



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Message 1137680 - Posted: 8 Aug 2011, 19:47:34 UTC
Last modified: 8 Aug 2011, 20:03:15 UTC

Clearly the Army should be called in to patrol the streets.

If that happened, then the thugs throwing stuff at the police, who haven's a clue, would think twice about throwing something at troops.

As an aside, they should send in a regiment of Gurkha's with drawn kukris.

The solution .... give the youngsters something to do like 3 years conscript training then deploy for 2 years guarding Helmand.





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Message 1137719 - Posted: 8 Aug 2011, 20:52:58 UTC

What are they protesting/rioting about?
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Message 1137743 - Posted: 8 Aug 2011, 21:30:16 UTC - in response to Message 1137737.  

In no way do I condone their activities, but do we actually think the best way we can handle a situation like this is through tough military support and a few sliced throats?


It would seem to me that the best way to handle the unrest is by allowing them a forum to have their voices heard, and perhaps some action from their elected representatives to alleviate their concerns.
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Message 1137744 - Posted: 8 Aug 2011, 21:32:56 UTC - in response to Message 1137719.  
Last modified: 8 Aug 2011, 21:41:01 UTC

What are they protesting/rioting about?

A man was shot dead in London last Thursday by the police in London. His family went to Tottenham police station, London, on Saturday to ask why he had been shot, if he was carrying any weapons or drugs and what reason did the police shoot him for. They waited ouside for some time and the police did not come out and speak to the family. That seemed to be the flashpoint for starting the riot.

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Message 1137747 - Posted: 8 Aug 2011, 21:39:43 UTC - in response to Message 1137743.  
Last modified: 8 Aug 2011, 21:41:44 UTC

In no way do I condone their activities, but do we actually think the best way we can handle a situation like this is through tough military support and a few sliced throats?


It would seem to me that the best way to handle the unrest is by allowing them a forum to have their voices heard, and perhaps some action from their elected representatives to alleviate their concerns.

It seems that the rioting has little to do with politics, the recession or concerns. Thugs and the criminal gangs do not like the rule of law and and are showing how criminal gangs behave against authority and the law of the land. Opportunists are diving in to loot and get some distorted fun in causing damage and ruining the community they live in.

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Message 1137752 - Posted: 8 Aug 2011, 21:51:32 UTC

http://interactive.foxnews.com/livestream/live.html

I've been watching the Reuters live service currently being used by Fox News.
Their helicopter camera has used this link to transmit back to their studio.
They have been showing the fires going on in London but at the moment the
helicopter has gone back to base to refuel. Hopefully it will take off again shortly and relay more video footage.
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Message 1137805 - Posted: 8 Aug 2011, 23:26:32 UTC - in response to Message 1137737.  

Initially about the local shooting of a suspected drug dealer in Tottenham. But it has escalated all over London, and also in other cities. It seems to be now more about uneducated youths protesting that they don't have any future.

I've never seen anything like this in the UK in my life, and I am surprised that PM Cameron only decided tonight to fly home from holiday.

riots

I suspect his was just a trigger for a release of a lot of anger. Things from what I understand have been very bad in London with all the cuts and the unemployment. The police are known (and I have seen them) to be very heavy handed and I am not surprised that people are unhappy about the shooting of an unarmed person. I am sure if anyone here were shot their families. friends and community would be just as outraged.

It's terrible that this has spread and I am now seeing updates from friends on facebook describing what they are seeing all across London. It sounds really bad and very worrying. :(
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Message 1137813 - Posted: 8 Aug 2011, 23:57:32 UTC - in response to Message 1137805.  

I suspect his was just a trigger for a release of a lot of anger. Things from what I understand have been very bad in London with all the cuts and the unemployment. The police are known (and I have seen them) to be very heavy handed and I am not surprised that people are unhappy about the shooting of an unarmed person. I am sure if anyone here were shot their families. friends and community would be just as outraged.



Fragments of a bullet modified to maximise its destructive power were last night being analysed to cast crucial light on what happened at around 6.15pm last Thursday when police marksmen surrounded the minicab carrying Mark Duggan alongside a north London reservoir and shot him dead.

As clashes broke out for the third night running in the worst rioting seen in the capital for decades, scientists were analysing the remains of ammunition found in the radio of an armed officer involved in the arrest operation in Tottenham Hale to answer the key question of whether the 29-year-old opened fire on his pursuers moments before he died.

Investigators yesterday refused to confirm reports that initial results from the tests by the National Ballistics Intelligence Service suggested that the bullet fragments were from police-issue ammunition, meaning they could not have been from a weapon fired by Mr Duggan and casting doubt on claims that he was killed in an exchange of gunfire. According to reports last night, the suspected gang member was carrying a starter pistol modified to fire live bullets

The above is the latest news on this saga..
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Message 1137836 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 1:25:25 UTC - in response to Message 1137747.  

In no way do I condone their activities, but do we actually think the best way we can handle a situation like this is through tough military support and a few sliced throats?


It would seem to me that the best way to handle the unrest is by allowing them a forum to have their voices heard, and perhaps some action from their elected representatives to alleviate their concerns.

It seems that the rioting has little to do with politics, the recession or concerns. Thugs and the criminal gangs do not like the rule of law and and are showing how criminal gangs behave against authority and the law of the land. Opportunists are diving in to loot and get some distorted fun in causing damage and ruining the community they live in.


I'm confused. Your other post said it was because some police officers murdered someone, and Chris S suggested that s/he was an alleged drug dealer.

Certainly the law must be upheld, but is capital punishment really the answer?
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Message 1137847 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 2:03:40 UTC

So far there is a lot of speculation in the media with some saying police were fired upon, others stating the guy was unarmed & harmless & again, others stating he was a drug dealer.

Until the facts come to light, there really is no point in trying to analyse the hows & whys.

However saying that, the areas in London where its all kicking off is well known to me, as I grew up there & even back in the 60's the areas were well known for gangland activity, even the carrying of arms.

The difference between now & then is that we had respect & care for our communites even though times were hard - a lot harder than what they are now.

Personally I think its down to a lack of morals & principiles.
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Message 1137852 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 2:28:45 UTC

From the BBC: Was Tottenham's riot a cry of rage?

"Was Saturday night an orgy of mindless violence or a cry of rage from a marginalised, disaffected part of society?

Riots polarise opinion and instant analysis is a dangerous game.

The images of youths torching buildings and cars, attacking police and laying waste to a community rightly anger. Never mind the sight of adults old enough to know better filling their cars with looted TVs and stolen clothes.

But it took place in a part of London where resentment by some against the police had been building for days after a 29-year-old man, Mark Duggan, was shot dead by officers in an incident the circumstances of which may not be fully understood until an Independent Police Complaints Commission investigation is completed.

... "


and some info on the shooting: From Brixton to Tottenham, inequality lies at the heart of the riots.

On Thursday evening, Mark Duggan was shot dead in by police officers in Tottenham. The IPCC immediately announced they would investigate; unusual for an organisation known for its inefficiency. The media were told that a non-police issue firearm had been recovered from the scene, and that one of the police officers had been injured. Later reports revealed a bullet found lodged in a police radio.

But it turned out that it was in fact a police bullet lodged in that radio. Presumably, ‘friendly fire’. The recovered firearm was in a sock. Mark Duggan didn’t fire a single shot. Another man executed at the hands of the police, and more misinformation from the IPCC.

...


But the shooting and the riots in Tottenham are not enough alone to explain why the riots have spread right across the UK. I witnessed the riots in 1996 in Brixton which began over protests of a death of a person in police custody. The initial protest outside the police station ended in gangs of youths running through the streets setting fire to buildings and looting (I watched from my window as they smashed in the Job Centre across the street and set fire to the Carpet store on the corner.)

Those riots did not spread outside Brixton or beyond the community directly affected.

Now we have disturbances right across the UK. The death of Mark Duggan is clearly the spark, but only a symptom of the root cause. The tragedy is that people are destroying their own areas and local businesses which is often what happens during these sorts of uprisings.

To quote something I saw earlier:

"When you cut facilities, slash jobs, abuse power, discriminate, drive people into deeper poverty and shoot people dead whilst refusing to provide answers or justice, the people will rise up and express their anger and frustration if you refuse to hear their cries." - "A riot is the language of the unheard." Martin Luther King.

When people come from poor disenfranchised backgrounds they simply don't have the wherewithal to make themselves heard in a productive or meaningful ways. It's not lack of morals & principals, it's lack of education, or opportunities and a feeling that they don't matter to society.
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Message 1137856 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 2:30:51 UTC - in response to Message 1137847.  

Until the facts come to light, there really is no point in trying to analyse the hows & whys.


Personally, I hope we can keep trying to analyze the hows & whys so as a group, we can react a little more intelligently and without blind emotion.
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Message 1137861 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 2:34:20 UTC - in response to Message 1137852.  

"When you cut facilities, slash jobs, abuse power, discriminate, drive people into deeper poverty and shoot people dead whilst refusing to provide answers or justice, the people will rise up and express their anger and frustration if you refuse to hear their cries." - "A riot is the language of the unheard." Martin Luther King.

When people come from poor disenfranchised backgrounds they simply don't have the wherewithal to make themselves heard in a productive or meaningful ways. It's not lack of morals & principals, it's lack of education, or opportunities and a feeling that they don't matter to society.


Well stated.
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