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Number crunching :
Please help building my new main cruncher
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Helsionium Send message Joined: 24 Dec 06 Posts: 156 Credit: 86,214,817 RAC: 43 |
Hi there, it's been about 10 years since I last ordered a customized computer, and I probably missed almost everything that happened in desktop computing since then. That's why I request your opinion on the machine I'm going to build. Feel free to suggest better components, the price shouldn't rise significantly, though. I've decided I want to use an Intel CPU and nVidia GPUs because I never had any complaints with their products. The computer will be used as a 3D gaming/game development machine, as a file server and - of course - as my main cruncher. I intend to use Windows 7 64-bit. Here is an overview over the significant components I have considered. Motherboard: My core questions are: Are there better CPUs/GPUs at around the same price? Of the offered RAM modules, which one is the best offer? What do the numbers mean? Are there many situations where 8GB RAM is not enough? I'm not doing HD video editing or anything like that... There is a large price difference between the two motherboards, but I think the cheaper one should be enough for the system I want. Is it correct that the leftmost PCIe bus is a PCIe x1 bus (for my sound card) and the two blue PCIe buses are the ones for the GPUs? Is the space between the to PCIe buses large enough for these two GPUs? If I understand it correctly, SLI is a technology to "combine" the processing power of two GPUs with a special cable. This is certainly useful for video games who can only use one GPU at once, but it is useful for crunching too? Or is BOINC processing faster if the two GPUs remain seperated? The retailer I order at may be unable to install a second GPU (the order mask has no field for 2nd GPU and I must probably order it seperately) and I may have to install it myself. This is not a problem, but could it happen that there is actually not enough space left to install it if the rest of the computer is already assembled? I found no data on the GPUs power usage, how much power must the power supply probably supply at least? Are there any special precautions I must take regarding cooling? The CPU, power supply and GPUs surely come with appropriate coolers, but the system as a whole will probably get very hot, won't it? Sorry for asking so many questions, but the store doesn't offer any customer service except assembling what I order (the components are cheaper than elsewhere, though) and since it's going to cost quite much, I want to be happy after my purchase. Kind regards and thanks in advance, Helsionium |
James Sotherden Send message Joined: 16 May 99 Posts: 10436 Credit: 110,373,059 RAC: 54 |
I can comment on the RAM. Id go with the 12GB. yes it costs more ,but if you are going to do 3D gaming and development you will use it. I have 12GB in my I7 920. I do photo editing and watch videos and I never have run out of memory. And I let SETI run while im doing all of the above. Edit- Is that DDR3 ram? [/quote] Old James |
Helsionium Send message Joined: 24 Dec 06 Posts: 156 Credit: 86,214,817 RAC: 43 |
Yes, these are all DDR3 modules. |
S@NL - John van Gorsel Send message Joined: 5 Jul 99 Posts: 193 Credit: 139,673,078 RAC: 0 |
Using SLI does not help with crunching.
That will depend on the case and the length of the card. I do have some cases that can not be used with a second GPU as the drive cage is too close to the motherboard.
The 560Ti is rated at 170W max power and nVidia recommends a PSU of 500W or more for the system (with 1 GPU). The MSI is slightly overclocked so the power draw will be more. I ran an i7 920 with 2pc GTX260 (180W max power) on a 750W PSU without problems so I would go for 750W-850W.
Make sure you have sufficient air flow in the case. Normally, the processor is located above the GPU's and it will use part of the hot air rising from the GPU's for cooling. Seti@Netherlands website |
dnolan Send message Joined: 30 Aug 01 Posts: 1228 Credit: 47,779,411 RAC: 32 |
Unless you feel you really need 6 cores, I'd say you could save some money and get almost the same level of performance by switching to an i7 2600 (or 2600K if you fell like you will want to overclock). The chip will be significantly cheaper, I would guess (though I don't know your country's pricing) that the motherboard would end up around the same price level, and you could use dual channel RAM instead of triple channel. It's not clear from what you spec'd out below, but are you thinking of using a dual channel kit on an X58 board (since that's what an 8G kit would be)? If that's the case, then you wouldn't be saving any money there, but still, the overall cost would be significantly less. Just something to think about. -Dave |
Helsionium Send message Joined: 24 Dec 06 Posts: 156 Credit: 86,214,817 RAC: 43 |
Unless you feel you really need 6 cores, I'd say you could save some money and get almost the same level of performance by switching to an i7 2600 (or 2600K if you fell like you will want to overclock). The chip will be significantly cheaper, I would guess (though I don't know your country's pricing) that the motherboard would end up around the same price level, and you could use dual channel RAM instead of triple channel. It's not clear from what you spec'd out below, but are you thinking of using a dual channel kit on an X58 board (since that's what an 8G kit would be)? If that's the case, then you wouldn't be saving any money there, but still, the overall cost would be significantly less. Just something to think about. Thank you for your suggestions, I completely missed that CPU. It's only half the price of the i7-970 and CPU crunching is probably pretty much pointless anyway with these two GPUs. Four cores should be enough for my server and development processes. Also, thanks John van Gorsel for your answers. |
BMH Send message Joined: 27 May 99 Posts: 419 Credit: 166,294,083 RAC: 125 |
I too would recommend the skt.1155 "sandybridge" CPUs, either 2500K (4 cores/4 threads) or 2600K (4 cores/8 threads), and suitable motherboard. PC3-1333 Dual Channel RAM is recommended. I'm using an 800W 80plus rated PSU to power my two GTX 260 ti's, but I only have one hard drive and minimal other things so it might be cutting it fine - these cards do seem to be a bit particular when it comes to power/heat/stability, so more is probably better. The MSI Twin Frozr II is a good card with good reviews, I have one. Good case airflow is key, especially with two cards installed. It is recommended that the CPUs stock cooler is replaced with maybe a 'tower' cooler with 92mm/120mm fan - it will not only keep the CPU cooler but keep things a bit quieter. Maybe consider a SSD for your OS drive and applications, for quick bootup and loading times and improved responsiveness. Brian. |
Brkovip Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 274 Credit: 144,414,367 RAC: 0 |
You do realize that the Sandy Bridge motherboards have a lot less PCIE lanes so that you can't use as many video cards as you could with say an i7 970. Just a thought. |
Cruncher-American Send message Joined: 25 Mar 02 Posts: 1513 Credit: 370,893,186 RAC: 340 |
"Dual channel" and (I assume) "triple channel" is marketing-speak for two (three)physically and electrically identical modules. There's no need to buy "special" dual/triple channel modules as long as the ones you get are identical (i.e., same model/part number). |
arkayn Send message Joined: 14 May 99 Posts: 4438 Credit: 55,006,323 RAC: 0 |
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OzzFan Send message Joined: 9 Apr 02 Posts: 15691 Credit: 84,761,841 RAC: 28 |
"Dual channel" and (I assume) "triple channel" is marketing-speak for two (three)physically and electrically identical modules. There's no need to buy "special" dual/triple channel modules as long as the ones you get are identical (i.e., same model/part number). That's correct. I've even seen cases where non-identical memory chips can run in dual-channel or triple-channel configurations providing they fully support the same speed at the same timings as specified by JEDEC and properly programmed into the RAM stick's SPD. |
Alaskan Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 18 Credit: 53,634,823 RAC: 0 |
I'd really consider getting a solid state drive to boot from. That alone will knock your socks off. Time to load programs and system bootups will be dramatically reduced. As for SSD recommendations I personally use an Intel 510 drive attached to a sata3 capable system board. I wouldn't bother with the sound card, most onboard sound systems have great fidelity, and adequate software support. FWIW, My system has two ASUS 560Ti cards and averages 26,000 credits and climbing and consumes at least 350 watts, it's RAC ranking is around 129th in the world tough. |
Wiggo Send message Joined: 24 Jan 00 Posts: 34744 Credit: 261,360,520 RAC: 489 |
I'll just chime in here if I may. :D IMHO the current X58 setups are not worth investing in by a long way with the current crop of 1155 processers (if you want to spend that sort of money then wait until the X79 setups come out). Myself, I'm just waiting on a few more parts to turn up for my latest upgrade (these only happen every 3yrs or so here) and this is the total parts list; Intel Core i5 2500K Processor LGA1155 3.3GHz ASRock Z68 Extreme4 Z68 Corsair TX-850 G Skill Ripjaws 8G(2x4G) DDR3 1600Mhz CL9 Cooler Master V8 OCZ 120G Vertex II SSD LGE Blue Ray HD Combo and I'll reuse my Antec Titan case, 2x 9800GT's (until these get replaced by GTX560's or better a bit latter) plus WD 1TB Black HDD. You could pay $110 (or so) extra for an i7 2600K over the 2500K but I really can't see the value there myself. Cheers. |
BMH Send message Joined: 27 May 99 Posts: 419 Credit: 166,294,083 RAC: 125 |
You do realize that the Sandy Bridge motherboards have a lot less PCIE lanes so that you can't use as many video cards as you could with say an i7 970. The motherboard for my next build has three PCI Express slots - it did did take some searching to find. The first two slots are 16x and the third, provided by a separate chip, is 8x. I've not tried crunching yet with three graphics cards. However I have heard of some people experiencing problems with using four graphics cards, especially dual-chip cards like the 290s. "Dual channel" and (I assume) "triple channel" is marketing-speak for two (three)physically and electrically identical modules. There's no need to buy "special" dual/triple channel modules as long as the ones you get are identical (i.e., same model/part number). It is recommended that you buy the matching RAM as a kit. Sometimes RAM of different makes and speeds will work OK together (they'll all run at the frequencies of the slowest module), other times you may run into problems. I've had problems with seemingly identical RAM modules that were purchased individually. Brian. |
Helsionium Send message Joined: 24 Dec 06 Posts: 156 Credit: 86,214,817 RAC: 43 |
Thank you for all your suggestions. About the sound card, I initially thought I needed an Optical In connector, but I found out if I overhaul my current audio setup, I can do without that. Also, I just got around to try a machine with a SSD and I think it's absolutely worth the extra money. Now that I chose a different CPU, I will also have to choose a different motherboard. Of those my retailer offers, I think the MSI P67A-GD65 is the right one for me (http://www.msi.com/product/mb/P67A-GD65.html#?div=Overview) What do you think about this one? About what some of you said regarding PCI Express slots and Sandy Bridge MBs - are there really any issues with just two graphics cards? |
HAL9000 Send message Joined: 11 Sep 99 Posts: 6534 Credit: 196,805,888 RAC: 57 |
Thank you for all your suggestions. It just so happens that Tom's Hardware tested GPU scaling. It looks like for dual cards the P67 is the way to go. In many cases the P67 at x8/x8 was better or close to the X58 at x16/x16. SETI@home classic workunits: 93,865 CPU time: 863,447 hours Join the [url=http://tinyurl.com/8y46zvu]BP6/VP6 User Group[ |
Cruncher-American Send message Joined: 25 Mar 02 Posts: 1513 Credit: 370,893,186 RAC: 340 |
For GPU computing, the # of lanes shouldn't matter very much, as almost all the computing is done onboard the GPU and its memory; at least for the NVIDIA apps, they only use main memory to load the WU data at the start and maybe when checkpointing (?). And that's a small percent of the overall time for any WU. Thus mainboard memory speed doesn't affect them that much either. In fact, get a board with 4 or more GPU slots and the cheapest CPU and don't do CPU computing at all - a midrange single slot GPU will out-perform all but the most expensive CPUs regardless of CPU cores and with or without HT. |
HAL9000 Send message Joined: 11 Sep 99 Posts: 6534 Credit: 196,805,888 RAC: 57 |
For GPU computing, the # of lanes shouldn't matter very much, as almost all the computing is done onboard the GPU and its memory; at least for the NVIDIA apps, they only use main memory to load the WU data at the start and maybe when checkpointing (?). And that's a small percent of the overall time for any WU. Thus mainboard memory speed doesn't affect them that much either. I think you might have missed the part in their initial post about this being a gaming dev machine & not a dedicated cruncher. However, with so many boards that can run 4, or more, x8 slots these days I so think that is sound advice for a dedicated cruncher. A year or so ago I recall someone was doing testing with cards in their 3rd or 4th PCIe slot that was only x4. I think some slowdown was noted, but not that much. It would be interesting to see how the newer cards of today benchmarked in this configuration. With them being so fast a larger porting of their time would be loading data in and out of the card & the difference might be more significant. SETI@home classic workunits: 93,865 CPU time: 863,447 hours Join the [url=http://tinyurl.com/8y46zvu]BP6/VP6 User Group[ |
Cruncher-American Send message Joined: 25 Mar 02 Posts: 1513 Credit: 370,893,186 RAC: 340 |
Thanks for catching my error. My bad. |
Helsionium Send message Joined: 24 Dec 06 Posts: 156 Credit: 86,214,817 RAC: 43 |
Well thanks to all of your suggestions, I was able to cut costs while improving performance. I knew that GPU computing is by orders of magnitude faster and more effecient than CPU processing, but the costs of building (and also running) a dedicated GPU-only cruncher do not allow me to do this at this time. So I think I settled with a machine that can do all tasks I need at once, and at the same time being pretty cost-efficient. You all helped me achieve that goal, and I'm grateful for that. Once the machine I'm going to order now arrives, I may come back and ask a question or two about optimized apps, if I don't figure it out myself - I already run them, but I think more optimizing can be done than just running them in the default configuration. Kind regards, Helsionium |
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