I totally agree with Arizona Moon. We have had violence here in Italy too but we survived without special laws affecting our liberties. Now there are people calling for violence against immigrants, especially Islamic immigrants. We all have to combat this doctrine of hate and go back to the teachings of Christ.
Tullio

Why do I think there is something wrong with talking about going back to Christ when discussing people of Islam? Should we not look to Mohammed when discussing people of Islam?

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Why do I think there is something wrong with talking about going back to Christ when discussing people of Islam? Should we not look to Mohammed when discussing people of Islam?

I am not discussing the people of Islam. I am discussing our attitude as Christians towards people who come to my country escaping poverty and dictatorships. The teachings of Christ are clear enough for anybody who pretends to be a Christian.
Tullio

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I had desided to not go more into this discussion as it was.
But i redeside for one post. ;-)

I cant recall Ive said anything about Christians or Muslims.. ;-p
This is not a religious matter.. its a Human matter. To respect
other humans is not a religious matter either.. but a human matter.
(Not to confuse with Humanism, as also in fact may be seen as a kind of religion.)

I dont confess to any Religion. I grew up in a Christian home, and in
a "Christian Country" (how ever a Country may be called such) - but that
doesnt Make me a Christian. There is no religion I know about, where I
can say to belive it fully - or accept all the views.. So I cant and will
not confess to them. And strangely enough, it seems like most people who
DO confess to any religion, more or less chose what they belive of it, and
what they do not - and Still confess to them.

- as an example - In the Bible it says that there is no other in this universe
than us people on earth - And even to search for it is to disbelieve God.
Now.. how can anyone who says to be a Christian search for ET in Seti? ;-)

Another example: the guy doing this horrible attacks: He calls himself christian -
and break the law: You shall not kill. And he think its totally ok. Right.

Said this, I do respect that others confess to a religion. Its their choise.

But - To explain human respect and empathy and love with Religion is dangerous. It says that
those who do not confess to a spesific religion do not Have these qualities.
These qualities are in all of us. But for some it disappears more or less
by time.. One may wonder why.. but I think its about what one are teached.
Of others, or through life itself. ( Interpretation)

As humans we have in fact only two choises. Love or Fear.
When we Fear, we think we need to defend ourselves, and so we attack.
Everyone who attack do it out of a belief that they have to Defend themselves
or Something they believe in.

You all know this.. And you see it every day. In yourself, In your real life, and Also here in these threads. ;-)

May we all act out of Love and not Fear. It can be very difficult at times,
but we are all able to chose it - and do it.

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I must respectfully reply to Arizona Moon that the Catholic Church, to which I belong, admits the possible existence of life in other solar systems. And, incidentally, the Belgian Abbe' Lemaitre who put forward the "primitive atom" hypothesis in 1927,later called the Big Bang by Fred Hoyle, has been recently credited with the priority of the so called Hubble law relating the red shift of galaxies to their distance. Not to mention Pierre Teilhard de Chardin,SJ, who in his "The human phenomenon" gave a Christian meaning to evolution. We are not antiscientific and I am running 6 BOINC projects, including SETI@home.
Tullio

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So even within the Christian religion, there are huge differences.
Im glad this is correct for you, Tullio. ;-)

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Yes, we are not monolithic. Every Sunday morning, before going to Mass, I listen to the Evangelical cult on the radio and, when they pray, I pray with them, especially the Padre Nostro (the Lord's Prayer).
Tullio

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cult

Interesting choice of a word. Makes a powerful statement.

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Chris, I pray also for the Norway kids. It can't harm them, as a Jew poet in Trieste, Umberto Saba, said to a friend who had heard him mutter the Padre Nostro during a Jewish funeral. Mal no ghe fa, he said in the Triestino dialect dear also to James Joyce. Gary, the Italian name of the broadcast is "Culto Evangelico".
Tullio

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Yes, we are not monolithic. Every Sunday morning, before going to Mass, I listen to the Evangelical cult on the radio and, when they pray, I pray with them, especially the Padre Nostro (the Lord's Prayer).
Tullio

In the old days it was "pater noster qui es in caelis ...as I remember from my days as an altar boy. Both my Father and I claimed that we could say the ordinary in latin. Dante did a good job of inventing the Italian Language. A perfect blend of Spanish and Latin. i believe I saw his tomb in Firenze. I try to read Fibonnaci and of course find that in the early 1200's latin was still spoken in Italy.

I wish I still had my faith to be able to pray for solice for the families in Norway. I feel grief and hurt for the state of mankind and my thoughts are with the people of Norway.

Dante was exiled from Florence and is buried in Ravenna. He is not the sole inventor of the Italian language. Both Francesco Petrarca and Giovanni Boccaccio played a great part. They are the Founding Fathers of Italian Literature. Dante and Petrarca wrote also in Latin, Boccaccio with his "Decamerone" wrote mostly in "lingua vulgare".
Tullio

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To come back to Norway bombings topic, I put here a couple of articles just found in the web. I'm sorry I've got no time to try a translation, maybe google translate can help:

http://www.disinformazione.it/nwo_norvegia.htm

http://www.disinformazione.it/oslo.htm

They try to explain that "folly" with the real evil politics that rule the world. Even without those articles, this was my opinion many days ago, when the fact just happened. Please take more than a look at them, I think it's a better way to understand our dark days, and what we may expect in the next future, I fear.

kind regards

The Dreamer

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Thanks for those Dreamer. There is a lot of information and background here in English as well.

Norway

Certainly is a lot of info there & realising it is the Wiki, so the facts may not be 100% correct, but it does raise a question similar to my 1st one earlier in the thread.

"All the crews of the police surveilance choppers were on leave" . For either Law Enforcement or Military, that is plain insanity!

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Probably they were not expecting any terroristic attack, as the US military did not expect an attack by civilian aircrafts in 9/11. Surprise attacks are always the most dangerous, think of Pearl Harbor.
Tullio

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Probably they were not expecting any terroristic attack, as the US military did not expect an attack by civilian aircrafts in 9/11. Surprise attacks are always the most dangerous, think of Pearl Harbor.
Tullio

Wrong link to post. History has already proven that
warnings were given with the most damming one being the radar plots on the same morning of the attack.

The same applies here. Norwegian Intelligence were aware of him after he ordered explosive materials from Poland...but they didn't think it relevant. There's also all his firearms certificates...all those just for hunting?

He should've been pulled in for questioning & that may just have possibly put him off knowing that he was on a watch list (which in fact he was).

Yes, I know, civil rights may have played a part, but with the fractured state of the world today, it becomes a "chicken or egg" question.

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There is an Italian proverb about the worse deaf being the one that does not want to hear. As an example, the Italian High Command had been warned about the Austrian-German attack at Caporetto (Kobarid) in November 1917. They simply did not want to listen.
Tullio

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I just wonder what kind of justice can be provided to Anders Behring Breivik due to is monstrous actions against humans that simply had a different point of view.
What rights he should have? He for sure didn’t respect the ones of the Victims.
Should this crime be treated as an example, why can Anders Breivik can’t be accused of crimes against mankind?
For sure Norwegian penal code is not prepared to deal with such situations of mass murder, and he will have a soft sentence when compared with other European countries or even with the US.
I can only imagine the pain of the relatives of the victims.

Should this crime be treated as an example, why can Anders Breivik can’t be accused of crimes against mankind?

Why treat any crime as an example? We know what it was, what it is. Why glorify it any further? No-one who did that can walk amongst us again, not in Norway or anywhwere. If he is ever freed it is not just Norwegians who will worry, but all wherever he might be able to go.

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flaming balloons

But I still don't believe he did everything by himself. Some eyewitnesses in the island have reported more than only one gunmen. And, as I've already reported here, I can't imagine such an operation without aid, both fire power and logistic.

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As I wrote in Politics this demonstrates again the folly of leaving firearms, especially automatic firearms, in the hands of people.
Tullio

I dont think this is a appropriate comment in such a thread.

actually, it is.

One thing there is already an evidence, he was well informed and well prepared.
To believe that he was a lonely wolf is like beliving in santa.
what worries me the most is that neo facism is rising again, it just found a way of re-inventing itself, and in moment of crisis, when people don't feel that their basic needs are granted, then some neo-facist ideas will stick, will make sense.
It only needs one to set a fire that will ignite a MOB. Hitler went to power trough elections, and righ wing governments, with facist ideals are starting to get more and more power.
Portugal had the longest facist regime in history, and believe me is not good at all. When the government just get you arrested because they suspect that you are different, then I'm sorry I will be ashamed to belong to such country...
We had a brutal secret police, most of the torture and interrogation methods where passed to Gestapo during the mid 30's of last century.
I'm ashamed of such memory. However memory is short in society and what is in the news today, tomorrow does not matter anymore...