To S@H Crew -Please shut down S@H ( for week, or two)

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PhonAcq

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Message 1113459 - Posted: 5 Jun 2011, 13:09:16 UTC

Gee, this thread's theme is a common theme over the years. Joe's point about bottlenecks below is a good one to observe: once you remove the worst of them, a new set will pop up. And then new technology or a project enhancement (like GPU's and astropulse, resp.) change the ground rules. Etc.

During each problem solving phase people want to dig a trench to get more bandwidth to the seti shack, or buy new servers to speed up this or that, as was done not so long ago. I wonder, however, if the better investment today would be to acquire a more professional/capable database. Database performance seems to underlie so many of the bottleneck issues and/or solution proposals. Is it time to move from mysql? Yes it is free, but at what cost? Does someone have some insight on this?

A second thought is whether boinc's architecture is proving to be poorly extensible on this scale, and it might be time to re-think boinc's structure altogether. A more granulated system might be required to take us into our third(?) decade. If so, let's get started now. Afterall, the premise of boinc and the earlier seti classic has gone by the wayside I think. So we are looking for ET using our dinosaurs-- that is a weird visual.

(I doubt these ideas, even if they have merit, are solutions. Once an establishment forms, real change is difficult to inititate: the inertia of human organizations. But we should still encourage speculation.)
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Message 1113613 - Posted: 5 Jun 2011, 21:23:45 UTC - in response to Message 1113459.  
Last modified: 5 Jun 2011, 21:25:18 UTC

Gee, this thread's theme is a common theme over the years. Joe's point about bottlenecks below is a good one to observe: once you remove the worst of them, a new set will pop up. And then new technology or a project enhancement (like GPU's and astropulse, resp.) change the ground rules. Etc.

During each problem solving phase people want to dig a trench to get more bandwidth to the seti shack, or buy new servers to speed up this or that, as was done not so long ago. I wonder, however, if the better investment today would be to acquire a more professional/capable database. Database performance seems to underlie so many of the bottleneck issues and/or solution proposals. Is it time to move from mysql? Yes it is free, but at what cost? Does someone have some insight on this?

A second thought is whether boinc's architecture is proving to be poorly extensible on this scale, and it might be time to re-think boinc's structure altogether. A more granulated system might be required to take us into our third(?) decade. If so, let's get started now. Afterall, the premise of boinc and the earlier seti classic has gone by the wayside I think. So we are looking for ET using our dinosaurs-- that is a weird visual.

(I doubt these ideas, even if they have merit, are solutions. Once an establishment forms, real change is difficult to inititate: the inertia of human organizations. But we should still encourage speculation.)



They don't use SQL they use IBM Informix last I heard. Which is about the top of the heap if you have the money for it.

(This is in no way attacking you PhonAcq or anyone else just my general musing)
I think the problem this project has is numerous and from different angles. I've found it painful at times watching people who know nothing about the true backend of the project(most everyone here) argue over the various problems that have arisen and their 'ultimate' solution to fix it. And in the end the guys responsible for it all always seem to get it patched together with what they have or with donations both financial or hardware related. Honestly you can't claim it's the hardware, or the database, or the network without knowing the true loading stats and were they fall. Even the graphs aren't 100% accurate considering they only report in 5 minute increments.

So instead of suggesting what they do or don't do, I've found it most pleasant to just let my setup run and not worry about it. The last big issue I didn't even know happened until I came into the forums a week later?!!
Traveling through space at ~67,000mph!
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Richard Haselgrove Project Donor
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Message 1113620 - Posted: 5 Jun 2011, 21:33:25 UTC - in response to Message 1113613.  

They don't use SQL they use IBM Informix last I heard. Which is about the top of the heap if you have the money for it.

SETI@home uses Informix for the science database that we, as users, very rarely see. Informix will power the Near Time Persistency Checker (NTPCKR) and the Science status page when it's finally ready for prime-time.

BOINC uses SQL (specifically, the open-source MySQL) to keep track of users, hosts, WUs, tasks, credit, RAC and everything you see here - including this message board.
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Message 1113623 - Posted: 5 Jun 2011, 21:40:36 UTC

If it is only funding that is stopping an upgrade of the network from 100mbit, then I believe the thread I started on Cafe SETI regarding Tax Deductions, or more appropriately Gift Aid from UK Donors, and SETI@home backdating the claim over several years, would release 25% extra funding from the UK Tax Payer for undertaking just a paperwork exercise. The money generated being tax paid already, that the donor will never see again, but can declare that SETI@home should receive it.

Just me thinking laterally is all.

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Allan Taylor

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Message 1113648 - Posted: 5 Jun 2011, 23:00:37 UTC - in response to Message 1113051.  

@msattler Taken from this post from Matt 5 Apr 2011

Some good news: The entire lab recently upgraded to a gigabit connection to the rest of the campus (and to the world). Actually that was months ago. We weren't seeing much help from this for some reason. Well today we found the bottleneck (one 100Mbit switch) that was constraining the traffic from our server closet. Yay! So now the web site is seeing 1000Mbit to the world instead of a meager 100Mbit. Does it seem snappier? Even more important is our raw data transfers to the offsite archives are vastly sped up, which means less opportunities for the data pipeline to get jammed (and therefore running low on raw data to split). Note this doesn't change our 100MBit limit through Hurricane Electric, which handles are result uploads/workunit downloads. We need to buy some hardware to make that happen, but we may very well eventually move our traffic onto the SSL LAN - this is a political problem more than a technical one at this point.


I'm a little curious here. It seems to me that many are suggesting that they need new hardware to use the new connection that campus has. Reading that last sentence seems to me to say that they would only need new hardware if they wanted to change the bandwidth available right now using the existing setup. The but seems to imply that they are looking at another option of a different connection (the SSL LAN) but that it is being held up by the politics of any IT situation. They seem to be two seperate issues - one needing hardware, the other needing charisma.

Am I misunderstanding that?
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Eric Korpela Project Donor
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Message 1114422 - Posted: 8 Jun 2011, 0:40:35 UTC - in response to Message 1113648.  

No, you're not misunderstanding. To get more than 100Mbps to Hurricane we need to increase our bandwidth on the links going down there and we need the equipment to send gigabit to the interconnect (CALREN2) that we use to get to hurricane at the PAIX. That's likely to mean higher interconnect fees as well, and possibly higher charges from Hurricane. Increasing our use of those links is political. Because some of the parties are busy with other work negotiations are on hold for right now.

There's another solution that could be less expensive, but is even more political, and I probably shouldn't tell you about it for fear of jeopardizing it.

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Message 1114430 - Posted: 8 Jun 2011, 1:33:44 UTC - in response to Message 1114422.  

... There's another solution that could be less expensive, ...

I'm sure we can all wait until you have the grand switching-on / first-bits party!

Good luck for the negotiations and for whatever charisma might be needed.

Would a few raccoons be help or too much distraction?! ;-)


Good luck,
Martin



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Message 1117281 - Posted: 15 Jun 2011, 12:18:34 UTC

Would a few raccoons be (a) help or too much distraction?! ;-)


If they were those famous home trained ones I reckon they could charm the other side into submission :-) But seriously, a lot of this is about politics at the SSL, just look at the list of projects jostling for a share of the resources available. SSL Projects

Eric has been there for some years now, and is well able to gauge the current state of play, and make a pitch for Seti's benefit, at the appropriate time.
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Richard Haselgrove Project Donor
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Message 1117286 - Posted: 15 Jun 2011, 13:17:47 UTC - in response to Message 1117281.  

Would a few raccoons be (a) help or too much distraction?! ;-)


If they were those famous home trained ones I reckon they could charm the other side into submission :-)

Ferrets would probably be more use - they can fit in smaller cable ducts, and don't eat so much ;-)
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Message 1117332 - Posted: 15 Jun 2011, 15:18:23 UTC - in response to Message 1117286.  

Ferrets would probably be more use - they can fit in smaller cable ducts, and don't eat so much ;-)

All we need is a ferret or two and a reel of fibre and A Tuttle and...


Looking good...

;-)

Happy fast crunchin',
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Message 1117356 - Posted: 15 Jun 2011, 15:50:13 UTC - in response to Message 1117286.  
Last modified: 15 Jun 2011, 15:53:01 UTC

Would a few raccoons be (a) help or too much distraction?! ;-)

If they were those famous home trained ones I reckon they could charm the other side into submission :-)

Ferrets would probably be more use - they can fit in smaller cable ducts, and don't eat so much ;-)

Unfortunately, in California it is illegal to possess a captive ferret, either as a pet or as a professional service animal. $1000 fine per animal. I'm not sure whether zoos can keep them.

Seems silly, but that's the California State Legislature. Can't pass or keep to a budget, but they can ban ferrets and regulate people almost to death. [/rant]
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Message 1117399 - Posted: 15 Jun 2011, 17:32:25 UTC - in response to Message 1117356.  
Last modified: 15 Jun 2011, 17:33:24 UTC

Unfortunately, in California it is illegal to possess a captive ferret, either as a pet or as a professional service animal. $1000 fine per animal. I'm not sure whether zoos can keep them.

Seems silly, but that's the California State Legislature. Can't pass or keep to a budget, but they can ban ferrets and regulate people almost to death. [/rant]

To stretch the topic even further, http://ucrpfuture.universityofcalifornia.edu/files/2011/02/thefacts_ucrp_contributions.pdf is also related to California state legislature decisions. To quote in part:

State contributions

UC administrators also are lobbying for the state to resume paying its share of UCRP costs.

In 1990, when the UCRP had a surplus, the Board of Regents suspended both employee and employer contributions to the retirement fund and state lawmakers stopped budgeting funds for the UCRP.

That contribution ‘holiday’ ended for both UC and its employees in May 2010, but Sacramento lawmakers have so far been unwilling to allocate state money for the UCRP.

President Yudof and other senior UC administrators continue to press for support, noting that the state contributes to the pension funds of Cal State University employees and those in the Community College system.


The project staff are of course affected by these changes. I for one am very glad they have so far been willing to put up with forced furloughs, no pay raises, and this.
                                                                  Joe
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Message 1117409 - Posted: 15 Jun 2011, 17:45:47 UTC
Last modified: 15 Jun 2011, 17:46:47 UTC

Yes, we do digress a little bit ....

The project staff are of course affected by these changes. I for one am very glad they have so far been willing to put up with forced furloughs, no pay raises, and this.


I would associate myself with that sentiment.
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Message boards : Number crunching : To S@H Crew -Please shut down S@H ( for week, or two)


 
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