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OSAMA IS DEAD, DEAD, DEAD!!!!
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Robert Waite Send message Joined: 23 Oct 07 Posts: 2417 Credit: 18,192,122 RAC: 59 |
Agreed, let's get back to the Bin Man... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/the-media-consortium/weekly-diaspora-what-home_b_858368.html I do not fight fascists because I think I can win. I fight them because they are fascists. Chris Hedges A riot is the language of the unheard. -Martin Luther King, Jr. |
keith Send message Joined: 18 Dec 10 Posts: 454 Credit: 9,054 RAC: 0 |
Waiting on the president to give a statement, but it is being reported that Osama bin Laden is dead by an US military assest. And we have the body.!!! Oh dear. The UN has announced it's displeasure at the legality of the killing. Michael Moore is upset also. Whatever will we do? |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30608 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Oh dear. The UN has announced it's displeasure at the legality of the killing. Michael Moore is upset also. Whatever will we do? Drag them to The Hague and find out once and for all if targeted assassination is legal. |
Es99 Send message Joined: 23 Aug 05 Posts: 10874 Credit: 350,402 RAC: 0 |
Oh dear. The UN has announced it's displeasure at the legality of the killing. Michael Moore is upset also. Whatever will we do? I suppose it's ok as long as you're not the one being targeted. Of course that is what due process is about. To stop governments deciding arbitrarily who needs to be removed. I hope questions are asked about the legality. Reality Internet Personality |
Qui-Gon Send message Joined: 15 May 99 Posts: 2940 Credit: 19,199,902 RAC: 11 |
Oh dear. The UN has announced it's displeasure at the legality of the killing. Michael Moore is upset also. Whatever will we do? This isn't a due process analysis. Certain Constitutional rights, like the right to counsel, the right against self incrimination, freedom from unreasonable search and seizure and due process are terms of art that are applied by courts of law. Taking out Bin Laden breaks all kinds of civil and criminal laws, but as it was a military operation, due process and the other rights I mentioned are not directly applicable. A different question is whether we had the right to invade another country's borders, as we did in Cuba (Bay of Pigs), Panama (capture of Noriega), Libya (cruise missiles for Qaddafi), Afghanistan (cruise missiles for Bin Laden)*, etc. I lean to the view that we were justified in going into Pakistan for this purpose, but the legality is not clear cut. Discussion anyone? *[Edit]: I left the current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan off the above list as those wars were approved by Congress. |
Jim_S Send message Joined: 23 Feb 00 Posts: 4705 Credit: 64,560,357 RAC: 31 |
Keep This To An ON TOPIC DEBATE! I Desire Peace and Justice, Jim Scott (Mod-Ret.) |
Es99 Send message Joined: 23 Aug 05 Posts: 10874 Credit: 350,402 RAC: 0 |
Oh dear. The UN has announced it's displeasure at the legality of the killing. Michael Moore is upset also. Whatever will we do? and what about international law or the sovereign law of Pakistan? As you pointed out, the US isn't at war with Pakistan. I am sure that the US would object if other countries crossed the US border to assassinate people that they didn't like, however justified. Reality Internet Personality |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30608 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
There seem to be several issues here about the legality: 1) The sovereignty of Pakistan 2) Is the USA at war with al Queda, do rules of war apply 3) Going after a specific person in war 4) After you are in someone's bedroom and he is unarmed, can you just shoot or do you have a moral duty to ask him to surrender first 4A) Does this change if you are standing on neutral soil 4B) Does this change after you have shot his wife, a civilian 5) If you have an arrest warrant for a specific individual, is that inferior or superior to war status 6) Did the seal in the bedroom even speak the same language as bin Laden |
Qui-Gon Send message Joined: 15 May 99 Posts: 2940 Credit: 19,199,902 RAC: 11 |
This isn't a due process analysis. Certain Constitutional rights, like the right to counsel, the right against self incrimination, freedom from unreasonable search and seizure and due process are terms of art that are applied by courts of law. Taking out Bin Laden breaks all kinds of civil and criminal laws, but as it was a military operation, due process and the other rights I mentioned are not directly applicable. I agree; and the US did object to such an attack in 2001. Though not a country, Al Qaeda sent their teams into the US to commandeer four aircraft and murder American citizens without any declaration of war on us or by us. Our response was to declare war on terrorists and countries whose official policy was to harbor such terrorists. I hope President Obama took into consideration that Pakistan might break off relations with us and declare war on us as a result of our raid into Abbottabad. But this case is somewhat different from the 9/11/2001 attacks. Pakistan is our "ally"; we give them billions in military/economic aid to prosecute the war on terror; a mutual enemy (Bin Laden) went uncaptured in Pakistan for years, perhaps with some local Pakistani support; and we have the resources to conduct the investigation and raid that led to Bin Laden's demise. To some extent, these differences justify our action, but they also make a declaration of war by Pakistan unlikely. |
skildude Send message Joined: 4 Oct 00 Posts: 9541 Credit: 50,759,529 RAC: 60 |
my problem with the nation of Pakistan is that the areas that the Taliban fighters train and hang out is the tribal area which has little if no gov't presence. To say those areas are Pakistan is to say silly. they are ungoverned areas. Osama was killed in an city that should have known something was wrong when the mansion he was living in was built. The US has had a problem with enemies running across internation borders since the Korean war. fighters and combatants should be pursued to their death. Heck most people recall that the Vietcong were using Laos as a spring board and safe haven to transport its warring materials south without having to be bombed by the US planes. In Korea we had divisions of Korean soldiers and fighter planes hiding behind the chinese border. I think its time we said enough and just go after the bad guys. In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face. Diogenes Of Sinope |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30608 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
my problem with the nation of Pakistan is that the areas that the Taliban fighters train and hang out is the tribal area which has little if no gov't presence. To say those areas are Pakistan is to say silly. they are ungoverned areas. Osama was killed in an city that should have known something was wrong when the mansion he was living in was built. Are you saying that there are no local Bill Gates types in Pakistan who could legitimately want such a residence? The tip off was what wasn't there, not what was there. No landline phones or internet. Who checks for that? |
skildude Send message Joined: 4 Oct 00 Posts: 9541 Credit: 50,759,529 RAC: 60 |
my problem with the nation of Pakistan is that the areas that the Taliban fighters train and hang out is the tribal area which has little if no gov't presence. To say those areas are Pakistan is to say silly. they are ungoverned areas. Osama was killed in an city that should have known something was wrong when the mansion he was living in was built. Lets see. hmmm No electricity, sewer, water, telephone or internet access to the mansion. I doubt Bill gates would want it. Someone looking to be anonymous and hide would. Hmm Who would want to hide in that area.. Oh yeah Osama In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face. Diogenes Of Sinope |
Es99 Send message Joined: 23 Aug 05 Posts: 10874 Credit: 350,402 RAC: 0 |
This isn't a due process analysis. Certain Constitutional rights, like the right to counsel, the right against self incrimination, freedom from unreasonable search and seizure and due process are terms of art that are applied by courts of law. Taking out Bin Laden breaks all kinds of civil and criminal laws, but as it was a military operation, due process and the other rights I mentioned are not directly applicable. Right. Exactly similar to way the US did not declare war on Saudi Arabia even though that is where the terrorists came from. Perhaps likewise Pakistan will use the raids by the US to justify a war in a totally different country. Reality Internet Personality |
Qui-Gon Send message Joined: 15 May 99 Posts: 2940 Credit: 19,199,902 RAC: 11 |
I agree; and the US did object to such an attack in 2001. Though not a country, Al Qaeda sent their teams into the US to commandeer four aircraft and murder American citizens without any declaration of war on us or by us. Our response was to declare war on terrorists and countries whose official policy was to harbor such terrorists. I hope President Obama took into consideration that Pakistan might break off relations with us and declare war on us as a result of our raid into Abbottabad. They very well might, and depending on the countries involved reactions will result that should be considered before deciding to make such a raid. My point is that, in spite of "International Law", the UN and world opinion, countries have been doing these cross-border raids since the beginning of history. I cited a few examples of US actions and others have noted some, but just about every president has ordered such raids to be carried out overtly or covertly. The political costs of these raids show up in decisions by the affected countries to modify their relations with the US, take retaliatory actions and/or in political costs to the president who orders the action. Would we have mounted such a raid into Germany or China? Probably not since the consequences of doing so would be unacceptable. President Obama should have been aware of the consequences of the Pakistan raid and probably took them into consideration before ordering the raid on Bin Laden's compound. Was it legal? I don't know, but I think it was justified (and apparently most agree with me, for now). |
Aristoteles Doukas Send message Joined: 11 Apr 08 Posts: 1091 Credit: 2,140,913 RAC: 0 |
ouch, you never get to the fake photos then? shame on you. |
skildude Send message Joined: 4 Oct 00 Posts: 9541 Credit: 50,759,529 RAC: 60 |
I agree; and the US did object to such an attack in 2001. Though not a country, Al Qaeda sent their teams into the US to commandeer four aircraft and murder American citizens without any declaration of war on us or by us. Our response was to declare war on terrorists and countries whose official policy was to harbor such terrorists. I hope President Obama took into consideration that Pakistan might break off relations with us and declare war on us as a result of our raid into Abbottabad. We are also dealing with a country that cannot actively enforce its power over its own people. The tribal lands are just that. Tribal. To say its Pakistan is to assume they can collect taxes and hold elections in those areas. I don't think China or Germany have this problem. Now you could say there are areas of the US where the Gov't can't go but not china or germany In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face. Diogenes Of Sinope |
Aristoteles Doukas Send message Joined: 11 Apr 08 Posts: 1091 Credit: 2,140,913 RAC: 0 |
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/ME04Ak01.html valid points here. i still can´t understand why usa started war with iraq after iraq was usa´s best friend in -80 in middle-east, and had nothing to do with 9/11. |
Robert Waite Send message Joined: 23 Oct 07 Posts: 2417 Credit: 18,192,122 RAC: 59 |
If your country possesses resources in any abundance, your country is on the list of targets. Does anyone truly believe there isn't an invasion plan for Canada in some vault in the pentagon? I do not fight fascists because I think I can win. I fight them because they are fascists. Chris Hedges A riot is the language of the unheard. -Martin Luther King, Jr. |
skildude Send message Joined: 4 Oct 00 Posts: 9541 Credit: 50,759,529 RAC: 60 |
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/ME04Ak01.html We didn't. W and company did. It can be called payback for the attempted attack on Daddy Bush when he visited Kuwait after he was out of office In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face. Diogenes Of Sinope |
Qui-Gon Send message Joined: 15 May 99 Posts: 2940 Credit: 19,199,902 RAC: 11 |
i still can´t understand why usa started war with iraq after iraq was usa´s best friend in -80 in middle-east, and had nothing to do with 9/11. You're skipping over a huge span of history. Iraq invaded Kuwait; the US led a coalition to oust Saddam and was headed into Baghdad when Iraq agreed to cease-fire terms. Those terms were continually violated for a decade, including the most critical violation, failure to allow complete UN inspections for WMD. After 9/11 the US opted to dissolve the cease-fire and resume military operations, all with the overwhelming agreement of Congress. Who was or was not our "friend" in the early '80s is irrelevant, given the subsequent actions of a brutal, dangerous dictator. |
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