I do believe there has been some serious doubt about what the Dogon actually knew, and there seems to be concensus that the Dogon learned about Sirius B and it's celestial bodies from Marcel Griaule, and not through divine knowledge or from ancient alien beings.

Unless this person contacted them in the last decade they, the dogon people couldnt have possibly known that Sirius had a binary star system. The companion star is a dim red dwarf that cant be seen only by the best telescopes in the world to be seen. How do they know a star has a elipical orbit when it cant be seen with the naked eye. These people couldnt possibly understand what a telescope is.

UFOs real or imagined they are being seen, still there are that 20% that defy explanation. Many countries of the world have been documenting what they are seeing. Something that has me confounded are the flying gargabe cans. They been filmed in chile holland and UK all the same type of craft that hovers for minutes or hours in one posistion then speed off at enormous speeds. They are small look like a 55 gallon garbage can with a band at bottom that makes it look like a bell. They have two rectangles at the top. Why are these drones being seen everywhere. Many nuclear facilities have been overflown including a nuclear storage area in England and also in the US. Why would you observe a planet for 50 years and not make one effort at contact. I would caution there intentions by doing this. I think it would be a jubulant thing to find intelligent life elsewhere in space. Just hopefully they are benevolent beings that are not going to interfere with us in any way, if they can help it.
I think UFOs can be said to not be true because boeing didnt build it or have one ina museam somewhere. It will take someone with a TV crew to observe this craft measure it find out its power sourse and where it came from. Maybe even interveiwing the crew. Even then because the government didnt know about it would considered a hoax. They have to land on the whitehouse lawn.

Wouldn't that be proof! A 4000 year old pyramid with the human genome carved into it?

In my opinion no it would only be proof of a visitation "4000 years ago"or when ever.

Yes, thats my very point! Todays science says we evolved, got clever and started building pyrimads and other stuff.

So for arguments sake, lets say we did find a 4000 year old carved picture of DNA in a pyrimad, wouldn't that change the whole ball game for science? And our theory that human beings "evolving from apes"? It would be proof somebody from another planet had something to do with us humans being here.

John.

That's not definitive proof.

Firstly, humans did not "evolve from apes". We evolved from a branch that was related to apes.

Secondly, it could mean a plethora of things. We would need to ask more questions about it before assuming it was left there by someone from another planet.


Without knowing it, your question essentially boils down to "When is it OK to assume something based upon a finding that contradicts or defies what we currently know?". The answer for any real scientist is that it's never really OK to assume. It only brings up more questions that must be answered, through hypothesizing and peer review until we come up with a solid theory.

In science, even theories can be proven wrong if we find that the original theory was based upon a false premise or assumption. Technically even gravity is just a theory. But at least we keep trying to find the answer and challenging assumptions because if you ever want to be certain, it's never OK to assume.

Ok, so for arguments sake lets imagine that they find loads of pictures of DNA. But also say they find another drawing with celestial coordinates and a map of the Orion constellation with an arrow on the map kinda saying, this is where we came from.

John.

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I do believe there has been some serious doubt about what the Dogon actually knew, and there seems to be concensus that the Dogon learned about Sirius B and it's celestial bodies from Marcel Griaule, and not through divine knowledge or from ancient alien beings.

Unless this person contacted them in the last decade they, the dogon people couldnt have possibly known that Sirius had a binary star system. The companion star is a dim red dwarf that cant be seen only by the best telescopes in the world to be seen. How do they know a star has a elipical orbit when it cant be seen with the naked eye. These people couldnt possibly understand what a telescope is.

Written directly from Walter van Beek in 1991:

"Though they do speak about sigu tolo [which is what Griaule claimed the Dogon called Sirius] they disagree completely with each other as to which star is meant; for some it is an invisible star that should rise to announce the sigu [festival], for another it is Venus that, through a different position, appears as sigu tolo. All agree, however, that they learned about the star from Griaule"

Why are these drones being seen everywhere.

Mass hysteria. People will all see the same description because of the power of suggestion. It's the same phenomenom that allows people to see images of the Holy Mother Mary or Jesus Christ himself. None of the stories hold up when held to a scientific, peer-review process.

Why would you observe a planet for 50 years and not make one effort at contact.

Because they simply have not been here.

I think UFOs can be said to not be true because boeing didnt build it or have one ina museam somewhere. It will take someone with a TV crew to observe this craft measure it find out its power sourse and where it came from. Maybe even interveiwing the crew. Even then because the government didnt know about it would considered a hoax. They have to land on the whitehouse lawn.

UFOs (or at least alien spacecract) are said not to be true because all indications do not hold up to the aforementioned peer-review process. None of them hold any real credibility, and all of them have circumstantial evidence.

Ok, so for arguments sake lets imagine that they find loads of pictures of DNA. But also say they find another drawing with celestial coordinates and a map of the Orion constellation with an arrow on the map kinda saying, this is where we came from.

I agree that it would be hard not to assume it was from an alien civilization then. But until we verify the veracity of the evidence, it is still an assumption. As long as we're being fanciful with our arguments, what if one particular branch of human evolution developed faster than the rest, developed knowledge even beyond our own, and decided to take off and leave us a note where they would be staying when the rest of us caught up to them? It's just as valid of an explanation until further proof is shown.

No proof of such things as UFOs ever been found, most UFOs cases are hoaxes, publicity stunts, nothing else. Anyone who understands about astronomy, must think vast distances betweet star systems are a detriment for planet visitation, no living tissue would survive traveling light years. However, there could be the possibility that an habitable planet might exist in the Alpha Centauri system, most notabily Alpha Centauri B, that star presents a more stable orbit for an Earth's analog than Alpha Centauri A. An advanced civilization there with spacehips rocketed by antimatter propulsion, they would get to Earth in a lifetime. Any alien visits to Earth would be in the form of machines, android like perhaps; or even a machine/living tissue being, a Borg aproach. Gliese 581 with a possible planet there Gliese g with possible liquid water on the surface; lets say Gliese g contains an advanced civilization, it wouuld be extremely dificult for them to come to Earth, a probe from them would more likely reach Earth.

lets also not forget that any visitor would have had to have guessed that earth was here and would eventually spawn a technologically advanced race of animals. We also have to assume that they require the same living conditions we do. We just don't have a clue about anything alien until we actually encounter it.

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

Ok, so for arguments sake lets imagine that they find loads of pictures of DNA. But also say they find another drawing with celestial coordinates and a map of the Orion constellation with an arrow on the map kinda saying, this is where we came from.

I agree that it would be hard not to assume it was from an alien civilization then. But until we verify the veracity of the evidence, it is still an assumption. .....[snip]

I'm glad someone sees the point i am making. Yes, i agree that what i am suggesting is just a "made-up scenario" at the moment, its a case of "what if we found advanced ancient scientific pictures". All i wanted to know in this thread was if anyone agreed with the concept.

You see IF, and only IF we did find advanced ancient scientific pictures, then that would change the whole story of human history and the origins of mankind. We would have found where we originally came from. We would have "connected" with our real ancestors from other worlds outside the solar system.

Can you just imagine if the scenario i spelled out in this thread came true in the next year or two? Imagine if someone really did find advanced ancient scientific pictures. I'm emotionally overwhelmed at the thought that this might happen!

John.

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Ok, so for arguments sake lets imagine that they find loads of pictures of DNA. But also say they find another drawing with celestial coordinates and a map of the Orion constellation with an arrow on the map kinda saying, this is where we came from.

I agree that it would be hard not to assume it was from an alien civilization then. But until we verify the veracity of the evidence, it is still an assumption. .....[snip]

I'm glad someone sees the point i am making. Yes, i agree that what i am suggesting is just a "made-up scenario" at the moment, its a case of "what if we found advanced ancient scientific pictures". All i wanted to know in this thread was if anyone agreed with the concept.

You see IF, and only IF we did find advanced ancient scientific pictures, then that would change the whole story of human history and the origins of mankind. We would have found where we originally came from. We would have "connected" with our real ancestors from other worlds outside the solar system.

Can you just imagine if the scenario i spelled out in this thread came true in the next year or two? Imagine if someone really did find advanced ancient scientific pictures. I'm emotionally overwhelmed at the thought that this might happen!

John.

But you're still going off on a sigular train of thought. You're still assuming that such a find would indicate our origins. There could be so many other explanations that I would fear people jumping to conclusions without proof could create another type of belief system that's inacurate - like religion.

[snip].....

But you're still going off on a sigular train of thought. You're still assuming that such a find would indicate our origins. There could be so many other explanations that I would fear people jumping to conclusions without proof could create another type of belief system that's inacurate - like religion.

Yes, why would it not indicate our origins?

Ok, you could theoretically argue that aliens visited 4,000 years ago, built the pyramid, carved the images of DNA, and just left without as much as saying hello to the local human inhabitants that were happily "evolving" by themselves. Yes, then it would be possible that evolution would still be an option but it would be a long stretch of the imagination.

Personally i could only come to the one conclusion, we are their descendants. Why??? Because just look at how easily mankind is able to learn science and figure out all this stuff. And we could throw in another part to the scenario and say there was a mummified Pharaoh in the pyramid who, like all the ones we know about, looks just like us!

What more proof would you want? Have them land in their spaceship and say - "Hi guys, we're back. Long time no see. What happened while we were gone?"

John.

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[snip].....

But you're still going off on a sigular train of thought. You're still assuming that such a find would indicate our origins. There could be so many other explanations that I would fear people jumping to conclusions without proof could create another type of belief system that's inacurate - like religion.

Yes, why would it not indicate our origins?

Ok, you could theoretically argue that aliens visited 4,000 years ago, built the pyramid, carved the images of DNA, and just left without as much as saying hello to the local human inhabitants that were happily "evolving" by themselves. Yes, then it would be possible that evolution would still be an option but it would be a long stretch of the imagination.

Personally i could only come to the one conclusion, we are their descendants. Why??? Because just look at how easily mankind is able to learn science and figure out all this stuff. And we could throw in another part to the scenario and say there was a mummified Pharaoh in the pyramid who, like all the ones we know about, looks just like us!

It sounds to me like you're looking for more fantastical explanations to our origins. It sounds like you don't like the idea evolution as if it's too boring. Many times, reality is far more boring than we'd like it to be.

No, I could come to many other conclusions. In fact, saying we're somehow their descendants would still be one of the last conclusions I'd come to. There's no way in my mind that an alien race would create a civilization and just leave them alone or "hide" from them (or forget about them, etc.). I find those notions absurd and very unrealistic.

I find the entire though process dangerous because it seems that sometimes some of us tend to fantasize our own answers and make them our "realities" without proof. We wish to validate these realities by trying to convince others that our conclusions are purely logical and not at all frivolous or presumptuous. We could be having this exact same discussion if the topic were religion, including your last paragraph, which could be rewritten as, "What more proof would you want? To have God come down from heaven and say - "Hey guys, I'm really here. Long time no see. What's been happening while I've been away?"" and my answer would be the same.

What more proof would you want? Have them land in their spaceship and say - "Hi guys, we're back. Long time no see. What happened while we were gone?"

Well, yes, that would be nice. At least then we could get some answers and compare them with each other to see if they're lying to us.

Snip....

It sounds to me like you're looking for more fantastical explanations to our origins. It sounds like you don't like the idea evolution as if it's too boring. Many times, reality is far more boring than we'd like it to be.
.

My original question was - Ancient Aliens - What's the proof?

To be honest, i'm really just testing the waters to see what peoples reaction would be if the idea turned out to be true. I'm very scientifically minded and i'm quite happy with the theory of evolution if that's actually how humanity came to be here.

I asked the question because recently some information came to my attention that suggested maybe there might be some credibility to the Ancient Aliens theory. The Ancient Aliens theory is either fully right, or its fully wrong. Either Darwin's theory of human evolution is fully right, or its fully wrong. Either all UFO sitings are fantasy and rubbish, or someone from other planets is visiting us. As a scientifically minded person i want to know which theory is correct and put all the other theories in the bin.

This is the SETI at home science message board after all. Its a good place to come to ask people these types of questions

John.

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Snip....

It sounds to me like you're looking for more fantastical explanations to our origins. It sounds like you don't like the idea evolution as if it's too boring. Many times, reality is far more boring than we'd like it to be.
.

My original question was - Ancient Aliens - What's the proof?

To be honest, i'm really just testing the waters to see what peoples reaction would be if the idea turned out to be true. I'm very scientifically minded and i'm quite happy with the theory of evolution if that's actually how humanity came to be here.

I asked the question because recently some information came to my attention that suggested maybe there might be some credibility to the Ancient Aliens theory. The Ancient Aliens theory is either fully right, or its fully wrong. Either Darwin's theory of human evolution is fully right, or its fully wrong. Either all UFO sitings are fantasy and rubbish, or someone from other planets is visiting us. As a scientifically minded person i want to know which theory is correct and put all the other theories in the bin.

This is the SETI at home science message board after all. Its a good place to come to ask people these types of questions

John.

I watched the show Ancient Aliens on the History channel. Talk about crap. I don't know what the socalled Drs. on that show did to get a PhD but I have to assume it had to do with online diplomas. The theories they provide for items found in digs of ancient sites is preposterous on face value. I get really tired of the Atlantis line. Perhaps the folks claiming to having a clue where atlantis is should actually read Homers writings. Its clearly not a real city it was used as a figure of speech. nothing more. Now we've got people dedicated to finding imaginary cities

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

Agree, until proof of Aliens ever visited Earth comes up, then all these UFO so called sittings are just stuff of the realm of fantasy. It is what human nature likes to think, UFOs = Aliens. The laws physics apply the same in the universe.

skildude said;

I watched the show Ancient Aliens on the History channel. Talk about crap.

The History channel had such a massive viewership for the first series, they filmed a second series. Now they are filming the third series its that popular.

But i'm not even arguing the popularity of the show, its not important. What is important is if there is any real science fact behind the theory. Personally i think the theory merits investigation. If something is disputed in science, we investigate the problem to get the real facts!

C Olival said;

Agree, until proof of Aliens ever visited Earth comes up, then all these UFO so called sittings are just stuff of the realm of fantasy. It is what human nature likes to think, UFOs = Aliens. The laws physics apply the same in the universe.

I also agree 100%!!! Ancient Aliens, UFO's, Anti-Gravity, Ghosts, Ghouls, Goblins--- Are all fantasy and fiction until we have some solid scientific 100% verifiable proof!!!

But this does not mean any of the mentioned items really are fiction. It just means nobody has YET proved they exist! Nobody has disproved them either!

John.

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But are there any denies or explanations to Puma Punku structures in South America and Yonaguni undersea structures in Japan? Calling those as mystery is not enough so the closest answer is things of current outside scientific perimeters or anything of that kind of source.

Puma punku
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ndvGrqscuY


Yonagini
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIu2rA0yd9s

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Mandtugai!

The problem is the History channel shows equal parts truth, science and pizza.

I find it a horrible source for accurate information.


Most real scientists don't bother with such fanciful theories because if there were any real truth to it, they'd be all over it and we'd know the reality of it all by now.

Instead, they leave ancient alien visitation theories right next to spirits, demons and the Easter Bunny. There's simply nothing there.

Yes, there is just no proof aliens visited earth in the past! Now is there?

Nice picture that sums up the skepticism of modern science;



Picture; The Fermi paradox, Where are the aliens?
Enrico Fermi chatting to Stephen Hawking, Charles Darwin and Richard Dawkins on the Giza plateau beside the great pyramids. Image by Johnney Guinness.

John.

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Are you trying to use satire with that comment and that image?