we seem to agree on direction, but not on time frame. up at least a dollar per year on gasoline until we "get over it" is more to my view.

Edit: and we are certainly not dependant on China for clean energy.

neither GE nor Vestas are in China (two of the largest wind turbine manufacturers). Solar is made here, Phillipines, Malasia, Germany, oh yes, and some in China.. to name a few.

Are you sure they don't subcontract to China?

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I know of 1, count them 1 solar panel manufacture in China. All the rest have all of their operations outside of china. Does GE do some circuit manufacturing in china? possibly. Are they completely dependant on china? more than likely not. Wind turbines are very large to ship, and made in Europe and the United States.

China has a spot in the world economy. But far far from anywhere close to a monopoly.

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Janice

Is this the one?


Evergreen Solar to Shut Down U.S. Manufacturing, Move to China

By Green Stocks Central at Green Stocks Central

Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:10pm EST

by Tate Dwinnell

Evergreen Solar (ESLRD/ESLR) has announced plans to shut down it US solar manufacturing operations in Devens, MA in order to compete with China based manufacturers. The company is in the process of moving its manufacturing to China and announced it had begun production there back in September. The company was bleeding cash and with an uncertain solar market next year, it really had no choice.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUS107837933020110113

Is this the one?


BP SunOasis Company Limited is a leading solar energy business in China. The company is a joint venture between BP p.l.c. and Xinjiang SunOasis Company Limited, which was established in 2005. The BP SunOasis head office and manufacturing facility is located in Xi'an, the capital of Shaanxi Province, China.

Military spending bill bans Chinese solar panels before Hu visit
Tuesday, January 11th, 2011 By Thomas Hart


China is the top producer of solar panels in the world. The U.S. military is increasingly relying on solar energy as it operates in remote areas of Afghanistan where shipping fuel for energy is difficult. A military spending bill barring the Defense Department from buying Chinese solar panels was signed by President Obama a week before China’s president Hu Jintao makes an official visit to the U.S

http://personalmoneystore.com/moneyblog/2011/01/11/chinese-solar-panels/

Evergreen solar did a joint venture with Q-cells(Europe) shut down U.S. operations, and has been pretty much a shell company since. The joint venture name was "Ever-Q".

There is only one major manufacture in China that I am aware of. Yes, they have a pretty good output.

Sunpower: does most of its manufacturing in the phillipines. Kyocera: Japan.
(symbol SPWR on NASDAQ. ESLR for evergreen is under de-listing warning).
I am not sure where ENER manufactures there, but I am fairly certain it is not china.

Of course if you want to hobble the U.S. companies, then perhaps they will all be made in China and Germany.

Oh yes, of course Major oil bought up and crushed several others. Much like the Los Angeles "Red Car" service. Old habits die hard.

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Janice

another note: there are many other solar manufactures in the USA, both thermal and photovoltaic. ESLR basically tanked when bush tanked the economy mid-expansion.

xsnx: had a good idea. and not much more. pink sheets.

Trying to remember the rest, but I would have to do my research. And I think I have done enough for you keith. Do you really think the USA *can* not compete, or that you can merely keep us so politically bickering that we will get run over, yet again?

Ni Hao Comrade

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Janice

Evergreen solar did a joint venture with Q-cells(Europe) shut down U.S. operations, and has been pretty much a shell company since. The joint venture name was "Ever-Q".

There is only one major manufacture in China that I am aware of. Yes, they have a pretty good output.

Sunpower: does most of its manufacturing in the phillipines. Kyocera: Japan.
(symbol SPWR on NASDAQ. ESLR for evergreen is under de-listing warning).
I am not sure where ENER manufactures there, but I am fairly certain it is not china.

Of course if you want to hobble the U.S. companies, then perhaps they will all be made in China and Germany.

Oh yes, of course Major oil bought up and crushed several others. Much like the Los Angeles "Red Car" service. Old habits die hard.

ENER's subsidiary United Solar Ovonic Corporation manufactures in Michigan, I think.

It is not that we *can't* compete, technologically... It is that we can't compete (or at least have a dang hard time of it) when it comes to costs. Especially labor costs.

It is cheaper to make stuff in a country, halfway around the world, with low labor cost then ship the stuff to this country, than it is to make the stuff here.

Why pay someone in the USA ~ $150/day to make widgets when you can pay someone somewhere else halfway around the world $1/day to make them? Even after the additional shipping costs, you still come out way ahead. This is why all the good manufacturing jobs have been 'offshored'. And also why we can't compete.

We can compete Kong. I have to change tones here again, since I was replying to our shill.

The contention that "only from china" is complete and utter nonsense. I mentioned several other places they are made (in fact Japan's labor is more expensive than USA).. and the technology is still being developed. This is where the undisciplined americans and creative directions ROCK. the USA is the king of black tape and baling wire. And tech jobs carry a premium wordlwide.

So solar can be, and is, made worldwide. Wind is very expensive to ship long distances (fills up a lot of trains IF the parts fit on a train car).

So the assertion we are helpless without China is ridiculous. We are still
friends with Japan, South Korea, Phillipines, and many other countries. And repairing relations with many more.

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Janice

We can compete Kong. I have to change tones here again, since I was replying to our shill.

The contention that "only from china" is complete and utter nonsense. I mentioned several other places they are made (in fact Japan's labor is more expensive than USA).. and the technology is still being developed. This is where the undisciplined americans and creative directions ROCK. the USA is the king of black tape and baling wire. And tech jobs carry a premium wordlwide.

So solar can be, and is, made worldwide. Wind is very expensive to ship long distances (fills up a lot of trains IF the parts fit on a train car).

So the assertion we are helpless without China is ridiculous. We are still
friends with Japan, South Korea, Phillipines, and many other countries. And repairing relations with many more.

"Only from China"?? "helpless without China"??? I didn't say those things.

I don't think you understand what 'compete with' means. I am not saying that there won't be ANY jobs created in the USA due to the 'greening' of our energy. I AM saying that it won't be many, not nearly as many as we are being promised. Most of the manufacturing jobs created will be overseas, due to the costs and regulatory environments there vs. here -- just as most current manufacturing jobs that used to be in the USA have been 'offshored'.

We might be able to invent a large amount of stuff, but manufacturing it is where the money is. And that won't be in the USA unless a LOT changes around here.

Keith had said those things Kong. It was to him an earlier reply was directed to.

" don't think you understand what 'compete with' means. I am not saying that there won't be ANY jobs created in the USA due to the 'greening' of our energy. I AM saying that it won't be many, not nearly as many as we are being promised. Most of the manufacturing jobs created will be overseas, due to the costs and regulatory environments there vs. here -- just as most current manufacturing jobs that used to be in the USA have been 'offshored'.

We might be able to invent a large amount of stuff, but manufacturing it is where the money is. And that won't be in the USA unless a LOT changes around here. "

Contrary to popular belief, a lot of manufacturing is still done in the USA and Europe. Things like wind power, the larger components will be. I will not make that claim for every control circuit. But I would say we are capable.

And as methods are "invented" they tend to be implemented close to where they start from. Which is why it is imperitive we LEAD the world.. and not get dragged along grudgingly.

And in this case, high oil prices actually could work in our favor. Until wind/solar/wave powered ships predominate, Shipping major alternative power components back and forth can become not cost effective. Consequently local metal/carbon fiber/solar panel processing and manufacturing could see another boom.

These, among other reasons are why I have no fear of high oil prices.

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Janice

According to Live Science senior writer Wynne Parry, we're already too late. ...

Are you using that as a lame excuse to do nothing to curb or reverse our present rampant pollution?...

That is... "We're all doomed, so let's doom ourselves sooner"?


It's our only planet!
Martin

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See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

No, I'm just not accepting the blame. ...

Ahhhh... Couch-potato syndrome...

You want everyone else to do it all for you...


It's still our only planet.
Martin

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See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Ok, instead of just calling me names, how about giving me some examples of what you've done personally to help save the planet?

No name-calling there. That's just a colloquial description of how a large part of the population appear to exist.

I drive a Honda Civic (if you haven't already deduced this)
I'm frugal with my thermostat in the summer and winter.
I've reduced the amount of cow I eat over the last few years.

I'm one step away from buying a 45W solar panel ($200) to keep a deep cycle marine battery charged to run my ham station only on energy from the sun--something very reasonable and sustainable.

And I've recently started to consider whether leaving my computers on to search for extraterrestrial life is worth the damage to the planet.

Thanks for some positive comment at last for this thread.

I can claim very good green credentials just from using electrons to do all my commuting! That's not practical for all work scenarios but it does give a good clear win when it is possible.

I too am conscious of my impact upon the world and try to minimise energy use, directly and indirectly, again wherever possible.


And for the rest and for what next...?

That's where education and pressure from everyone needs to be brought to bear to push and accept faster change to transform the wasted 75% or so of all energy into something more useful and to use non-polluting alternatives and to save the planet and ourselves.

The technology is near enough. However, politics and industry and the industry lobbied politics are still a long way off from turning around our impending doom.

"Business as usual" is not an option. The economics need to be turned around...


It's our only planet.
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

I like how they are now changing from incandescent light bulbs to very efficient fluorescent or very highly efficient LED lighting. I remember having to change bulbs every 6-12 months. Now they can last for 5 years or more. I've had to replace 1 compact fluorescent in the last 5 years. thats a big difference in out of pocket cost and fuel costs

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

A great deal of technology has gone into making light bulbs burn out.
We are now finally moving to flourescent bulbs (via media/ad campaigns/pricing)
just as LED lighting is becoming Viable.

LED should win long term. More effecient with less toxic production. The problem is they will last too long, so prices should remain very very high.

Some of the earliest lightbulbs lasted 100 years. The ones on the market now regardless of type, not a chance.

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Janice

I like how they are now changing from incandescent light bulbs to very efficient fluorescent or very highly efficient LED lighting. I remember having to change bulbs every 6-12 months. Now they can last for 5 years or more. I've had to replace 1 compact fluorescent in the last 5 years. thats a big difference in out of pocket cost and fuel costs

You have had much better luck with CFL's than I have. From what I understand there were several makers that made CFL's that burnt out faster than conventional bulbs. Sucks because it is a much bigger carbon and toxic footprint.

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