Time has come 2 this

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Blake Bonkofsky
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Message 1055836 - Posted: 14 Dec 2010, 5:19:50 UTC - in response to Message 1055830.  

Oh I understand it. It's just my basic instinct to look at is as Inbound to Seti and Outbound from Seti, which it is not.
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Message 1055837 - Posted: 14 Dec 2010, 5:20:32 UTC - in response to Message 1055830.  

since the graph works when the project is down, it is obviously from the other end of the SETI link (outside). The numbers reflect this. The bar graph is downloads(and other outbound) the line portion is incoming(to SETI)

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Message 1055843 - Posted: 14 Dec 2010, 5:50:31 UTC - in response to Message 1055698.  
Last modified: 14 Dec 2010, 5:51:21 UTC

Robert:


Do you mean the posted 2008 budget or a more recent one no one has seen?

Robert
Eric is aware the budget on that page is outdated. He will get to it in time. What would you prefer, a newer budget update or time for Eric to solicit grants to help the project?

I prefer the latter.
Pluto will always be a planet to me.

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Message 1055865 - Posted: 14 Dec 2010, 7:48:03 UTC
Last modified: 14 Dec 2010, 7:48:42 UTC

What's with all the angst around here??

The project is back up and running. Splitting work like he** won't have it, and shooting it out to us as fast as the bandwidth will allow.

Better still, the outage over the weekend was caused by Worf, not Oscar or Carolyn...so that's rather good news!

And they have even let Oscar even pick up some splitting duties, easing the load on some other less capable server.

The boyz decided to take care of the weekly outage tasks today, so no outage on Tuesday. (The message on the home page is automated, and pops up by itself).

So, relax.....
Hit the buttons if you are so inclined, otherwise just let Boinc retry downloads when it can, and the bandwidth will settle in a while....(OK, maybe a long while, LOL.....been a lotta outage time lately, and there are a lot of hungry crunchers.)

And if somebody wants to buy a few plane tickets, I'll send the kitties to hunt down the gremlins haunting the server closet.

Smile, my Seti friends. It may seem like a rough restart, but I am so optimistic right now, you could not possibly understand.

Meow! Meow!

Mark
"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

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Message 1055877 - Posted: 14 Dec 2010, 8:19:54 UTC

Well said, Mark.

Personally, I think that the roll-out of the new servers and the return of SAH has gone surprisingly smooth with only a few minor bumps along the way.
Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas.

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Message 1055878 - Posted: 14 Dec 2010, 8:24:15 UTC - in response to Message 1055877.  

Well said, Mark.

Personally, I think that the roll-out of the new servers and the return of SAH has gone surprisingly smooth with only a few minor bumps along the way.

Just think how good it would have gone if they worked weekends.

(ducking, bobbing and weaving)
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Message 1055890 - Posted: 14 Dec 2010, 9:41:23 UTC - in response to Message 1055780.  


You forget the whole concept was we donate unused cpu cycle for them to use as they please. This never started as we have a new thing we're giving up our lives for for your entertainment.

Then scrap the whole credit system and don't "keep score". See how many people contribute.


An excellent suggestion. It just might cure the saturated connection problem.


Most of us are geeks, and we take pride in being able to build and configure a system which will be better the your. It is about Compitition.
And SETI recognizes, and feeds on this for increased production and take a little heat when all isn't working well. The relax people in this thread need to relax!


If you're in it for the credits I think you should find a different project. Milkyway@Home hands out a heck of a lot more credits than S@H. Well, it does when it's up, it seems to be down right now, but when it's up you really get the credits. Still, if S@H quit handing out credits, you would be surprised at how many people still would crunch for it.
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Message 1055929 - Posted: 14 Dec 2010, 12:55:20 UTC

To me the people like Robert help liven the MB up so just let him enjoy his posting read them and repected that he has his opinion right or wrong it will not affect the proformance of the project unless he can go volunteer work on the project at seti
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Message 1056004 - Posted: 14 Dec 2010, 17:27:45 UTC
Last modified: 14 Dec 2010, 17:30:50 UTC

I think as long as a post isn't a personal attack on someone, or saying something just awful then they should have the right to post without moderation. Because opinions are like as......yeah you know the saying.

I'm also with Mark on the whole situation I'm excited, especially when I saw the server fighting through the swamp of people last night to still push out some WU's to me. I think , no I know the raid issue couldn't have been avoided and they handled it fine. The entire swap over was handled wonderfully and they couldn't have done it better or faster and everything be as good as it is, so there nothing but good things to say there.

Now could the University supply us with some IT guys and a Scientist to work the weekend in the event something happen, heck yeah, will they, NO. Would things be better for the project and us if they had someone there to babysit and tweak things over the weekends, sure. But right now they can't, I guess I could be called a cheerleader. But really if you aren't going to cheerlead keep a positive attitude and help out, what's the point? Keep up the spirit, knock down the spite, lets get this party started!
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Message 1056036 - Posted: 14 Dec 2010, 18:36:46 UTC - in response to Message 1056004.  
Last modified: 14 Dec 2010, 18:37:34 UTC

...But really if you aren't going to cheerlead keep a positive attitude and help out, what's the point?


Good question.

Now I remember why I stopped participating years ago. What's the point?

First off - where's the science? What interesting candidate signals may have been found? How many? What were the measurements in those WU's? Where were they located?

I mean, this is all about the science and the search isn't it?

As far as the very unreliable nature of the servers, etc to provide WU's to the participants: On the one hand, I understand that sh*t happens, but on the other hand, this is THEIR project that we are kind enough to donate our computers too. If it was my project and I was lucky enough to have a lot of people volunterring to help me, I would feel obligated to make sure that all of the things on my end that I was responsible for, would be working and I would make sure to regularly keep people posted as to status and progress on the science side of things.

Almost all of the other distributed computing projects do a FAR better job at this than Seti@home.

Why is that?
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Message 1056058 - Posted: 14 Dec 2010, 19:12:26 UTC - in response to Message 1056036.  
Last modified: 14 Dec 2010, 19:14:06 UTC

What's the point?


To search for life "out there...."

First off - where's the science?


Many advances have been made, and more continue to be made. It is happening at a slow, but methodical pace.

What interesting candidate signals may have been found? How many? What were the measurements in those WU's? Where were they located?


Most or all of these can be answered by the NTPCKR which they continue to work with.

I mean, this is all about the science and the search isn't it?


Sure is.

but on the other hand, this is THEIR project that we are kind enough to donate our computers too. If it was my project and I was lucky enough to have a lot of people volunterring to help me, I would feel obligated to make sure that all of the things on my end that I was responsible for, would be working and I would make sure to regularly keep people posted as to status and progress on the science side of things.


My questions back to anyone whom asks the same questions are: what level of expectation do you have? What leads anyone to believe that the guys aren't doing everything they can? The fact that things break and they're not fixed right away? Do we assume, like others have, that they are somehow incompetent and/or lazy/unwilling? Is it really so hard to give them the benefit of the doubt to know that if you would go above and beyond, so have they? They post updates when it's relevant and when they have a few spare moments to do so. If they do not meet your expectations, is it really OK to assume the worst, most negative thing you can possibly think of? And when people disagree, is it really OK to call them "cheerleaders", which is really an offensive term that implies that people who support the project and its Admins are somehow willingly blind to the project's faults which doesn't sufficiently describe or respect the fact that the individuals are simply more tolerant of the very same things the dissenters are not tolerant of?

Almost all of the other distributed computing projects do a FAR better job at this than Seti@home.

Why is that?


Funding. Less volunteers.

A smaller group of volunteers puts less of a pounding on their equipment, much of which is newer than SETI's. Other project Admins may not have the same busy schedule as the Admins here. How many other projects are able to be run by one or two people? Why is that?

Personally, I'd stop posting as much if all I got was a bunch of criticisms from people who didn't have a clue and could care less even if you explained it to them because nothing is good enough, and a bunch of arm-chair quarterbacking.

[Edit to fix my misspelling of "its" for Jord :)]
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Message 1056060 - Posted: 14 Dec 2010, 19:23:57 UTC - in response to Message 1055591.  

Late Evening everyone.

In a couple of Forum threads Robert, brings up the point of weekend support. I guess what he does not understand is that UCB is a State ran University. That means any of the Seti Staff are on a Salary. They have a specific work week including Furlow days which have been reported.

The point about "Interns."
There are two types of interns. One in the commerical world which implies a fixed number of hours of work, and very limited pay. This normally is a form of furthering education and providing on the job training in a skill set.
In the case of interns at UCB, they normally are post doctorial candidates. Who also have fixed number hours that they work for a project. They are also required to have direction for the thesis they are working on (in many cases they have other classes that may interfere with thier schedule).

So in order to get personnel to cover weekends, that would mean that Seti via UCB would have to have more staff with offset work weeks. That is a Noted Failed Budget item.
The fact that various Staff members do check into Servers or Processes on the weekend (thier own time) tells they do care... The fact that they can "sometimes" reboot some machine and get Seti back into operation also shows they care. The fact that in the tech news that one of the staff took time to drive also states they care. From personal knowledge, I know that he closest person live about 18 miles from the campus. That is a 36 mile round trip with traffic delays, not counting the "onsite time" for a cold reboot or the issues that show during the server(s) reboot.

So while the Science needs to get done... While things have been put off until the new servers can be "validated"... "WE" expect to see things change as things get back to "normal." At that point in time, we will see a "new" schedule and "new" growing pains. The fact that somethings are happening about two weeks ahead of the projected schedule is good. There will still be snags.

"WE," are here to "help" with doing the Science. Things we "contribute" to aid are the important part. Otherwise, Seti owes "us" nothing more than the Project Goals.
That "Goal" is Finding ET! Which "we" are a part of. It is part of a project that has "Always Stated" there will be downtimes.

So while many of you recieved work, I had only one machine that I set for Allow new work for Seti. That is one running Alpha Boinc 6.12.7 to test for multiple projects on multiple resoures (CPU/GPU). The 6.12.x series is supposed to help the multiple resource types. Then you do not need a 20 day cache to keep your machine busy for a 3-4 day outage. Honestly that is a work in progress.
So while people will disagree again. You need to look at a newer Boinc Core Client that can solve some of the "client issues." Many people are working on it in their "spare time."

Have a Good Night

Regards




Well said!
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Message 1056077 - Posted: 14 Dec 2010, 20:08:53 UTC - in response to Message 1056036.  

...But really if you aren't going to cheerlead keep a positive attitude and help out, what's the point?


Good question.

Now I remember why I stopped participating years ago. What's the point?

First off - where's the science? What interesting candidate signals may have been found? How many? What were the measurements in those WU's? Where were they located?

I mean, this is all about the science and the search isn't it?

As far as the very unreliable nature of the servers, etc to provide WU's to the participants: On the one hand, I understand that sh*t happens, but on the other hand, this is THEIR project that we are kind enough to donate our computers too. If it was my project and I was lucky enough to have a lot of people volunterring to help me, I would feel obligated to make sure that all of the things on my end that I was responsible for, would be working and I would make sure to regularly keep people posted as to status and progress on the science side of things.

Almost all of the other distributed computing projects do a FAR better job at this than Seti@home.

Why is that?


And it's people like you that need to move on good for you! Where is the science you ask, right here. These are the things our computers are looking for, when something is 'found' they have to check and re-check etc. to make sure it's legitimate before making a press conference. We already have one scientist thinking he had found something.

And the unreliable nature of the servers is something that will be inherent in anything of this size and complexity. What exactly are you expecting? Why are people so self gratuitous to think that Seti OWES them 24/7 365 uptime. From what I see from your account you are crunching Seti again, so why are you back if you are so disgusted? You downloaded on the 9,10,11, and 12th and they make a cache for a reason. If you only have the cache set for .5-2 days of course if the servers go down you aren't going to have work, and when they come back you are going to have to fight for a few hours to try and get anything.

No speaking on your point of 'if it was my project', that's just it. It IS your project if your participate. But the thing I see a lot of people failing to see in here is they look at it from a business or personal standpoint. If the group at Seti had funding to buy whatever infrastructure they needed, along with the man power you would never see the servers down. Plain and simple, but unfortunately they have to fight with government and university politics and financing to get anything done. For crying out loud they can't even use PayPal due to the university to accept donation! Open your eyes.

Some of you guys are like that boss everyone has had in the past. You know the new one they hire that has no clue how to do your job, but he rants and raves on you because you can't push out 80 hours of work in two days. Then when things get delayed because he has set a schedule nobody can meet you are the one in trouble. Same thing here, some of you guys are setting a schedule that could be expected, but can't be delivered. I beg you, if you are that unhappy please move to another project, I'm sure nobody at UC Berkley wants you to live an unhappy life because of their outages.

Traveling through space at ~67,000mph!
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Message 1056081 - Posted: 14 Dec 2010, 20:23:52 UTC - in response to Message 1055535.  

seti classic used to be down for weeks at a time then run a week or two then go off again for another couple of weeks...

the reason some of us aren't so up in arms about this is:

It's the way it has been since the beginning!
This isn't a life or death situation.
People will not die because Seti is down.





Amen. If it's up, it's up. If it's down, oh well...
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Message 1056083 - Posted: 14 Dec 2010, 20:37:40 UTC - in response to Message 1056036.  
Last modified: 14 Dec 2010, 20:43:02 UTC

...But really if you aren't going to cheerlead keep a positive attitude and help out, what's the point?


Good question.

Now I remember why I stopped participating years ago. What's the point?

First off - where's the science? What interesting candidate signals may have been found? How many? What were the measurements in those WU's? Where were they located?

I mean, this is all about the science and the search isn't it?


Given the immense distances to even the nearest stars and the fact that EM radiation is subject to the inverse square law I think we have to recognize that the probability of detecting a transmission from an artificial extraterrestrial source is very low. When a 50,000 watt radio station on Earth transmits isotropically, by the time it reaches Alpha Centauri 4.3 years later the energy is about 10^-30 watts/square meter or 10^-3 Janskys.

While detecting an alien signal is unlikely the project is of enormous value because if we ever do detect a signal from an alien civilization it would be the greatest scientific discovery of all time and would have profound meaning not just for science but all other human endeavors.

This is not a project for anyone seeking instant gratification, it could be years, decades, centuries before we finally find what we are looking for.
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Message 1056085 - Posted: 14 Dec 2010, 20:41:15 UTC - in response to Message 1056083.  

I like how Carl Sagan put it as it's non-numeric. The quantities are difficult to imagine. :^)

The energy from all the extraterrestrial signals ever collected and analyzed at all the radio telescopes worldwide is less than that of a single snowflake striking the ground.
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Message 1056106 - Posted: 14 Dec 2010, 21:39:38 UTC - in response to Message 1056077.  

No speaking on your point of 'if it was my project', that's just it. It IS your project if your participate. But the thing I see a lot of people failing to see in here is they look at it from a business or personal standpoint. If the group at Seti had funding to buy whatever infrastructure they needed, along with the man power you would never see the servers down. Plain and simple, but unfortunately they have to fight with government and university politics and financing to get anything done. For crying out loud they can't even use PayPal due to the university to accept donation! Open your eyes.

Valid points, BeNt and ones I wholly agree with. Has anyone considered that if S@H had all the funding to buy whatever it needed, we would not be saying this on the Message Boards? There would be no Message Boards, as they'd be using serious 'crunchers' or maybe something like the one the US Air Force recently put together using PS3 chips. Simply put, we would not be here at all. However, since such funds are not available, that is where we come in - collectively, WE are that hugely powerful number-cruncher. For weeks I've been patiently waiting for 'work' and what work I did get, ran out and here I am, still here waiting patiently for more WUs. Whilst it may be frustrating at times, I can guarantee that it is more frustrating for the team at the 'sharp end' of things. If you've ever had to fight for resources in industry for R&D, to pursue an idea, you'll know what I mean....you're up against all sorts of 'politics' and agendas and the word "simple" seems to have been removed from everyone's vocabulary. As I said, I'm patiently waiting.


Don't take life too seriously, as you'll never come out of it alive!
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Message 1056114 - Posted: 14 Dec 2010, 22:02:47 UTC - in response to Message 1056106.  

Most of us here are aware of the problems with finance, and we realy know that seti team are doing there best that's all we can exspect.we are here to help them if there's no work we should not think the seti team is in any way at fault, in a perfect system they would get the spare equipment out but they don't have that option. i think they needed our encuragement to let them know we are with them.
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Message 1056138 - Posted: 15 Dec 2010, 0:04:34 UTC

Very well said Iona.

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Message 1056162 - Posted: 15 Dec 2010, 3:11:04 UTC
Last modified: 15 Dec 2010, 3:12:20 UTC

KUDOS]to the SETI team. I salute you and tip my hat.[/b]
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