Wiki Leaks and free speech

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Message 1056396 - Posted: 15 Dec 2010, 20:31:46 UTC

Secrets are to protect the law breakers not the the good people that count good people don't need laws they do what is right without the laws
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Message 1056521 - Posted: 16 Dec 2010, 5:25:55 UTC - in response to Message 1056396.  

Secrets are to protect the law breakers not the the good people that count good people don't need laws they do what is right without the laws

Yeah, r-i-i-i-ght. You've never had a police officer or person of authority question you even though you hadn't been doing anything wrong?
Watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RV0EDrsa38
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Message 1056542 - Posted: 16 Dec 2010, 6:15:27 UTC - in response to Message 1056285.  

The fact is that freedom of the press (and more generally, of speech) may be enshrined in a country's constitution, but the practical exercise thereof may be inconsistent, at best. (Given my country's recent history, there is good reason for at least one of the limitations on freedom of expression in the South African Bill of Rights. In practice, however, there are very real threats to freedom of expression in general, and press freedom in particular, in South Africa today. Sadly, these threats emanate from the government itself, which is seeking to pass a controversial law that will further limit press freedom (the Protection of Information Bill) and to impose a media tribunal. As a consequence, South Africa's ranking in independent assessments of press freedom by country is falling.)

But the point is, there are many countries where absolute press freedom is guaranteed, in theory at least. According to independent surveys (Reporters Without Borders; Freedom House), it seems quite a few may be achieving this in practice, too.

I am sure Winston was right when he said what he said, when he said it. :)

Interesting tables. I suspect that they apply only to reporters and paper presses only and not all authors and means of expression. I'm kind of surprised by Britain's ranking overall, given that is has an official film censorship board.

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Message 1056558 - Posted: 16 Dec 2010, 6:39:02 UTC - in response to Message 1056370.  

there are limits to the US freedom of speech. Yelling FIRE in a packed theater comes to mind. Inciting a riot is another. Hate speech is particularly limited in that, hate speech leading to harm to others is clearly not. For example anyone that actively eggs on a crowd to attack a person or group can be held responsible for the act

Question is about what is written in constitutions. We all know every government on earth rapes its own constitution.

I suspect every country has restrictions on speech that does not have time to be rebutted, such as yelling jump to the guy on the bridge. I also suspect nearly every country prohibits child pornography. Those exceptions in the US were created by judges who didn't believe that the word "no" means no. In many other free countries these exceptions are in their constitutions.

BTW about yelling FIRE in a packed theater. You can yell it. Obviously you can if there is a fire. You can also yell it if you don't cause a panic. It is the causing a panic part that is actually illegal. If you read the case you will notice a pesky word "and" in there.

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Message 1056861 - Posted: 17 Dec 2010, 4:38:51 UTC

Robert - my ears were burning. I have been busy lately and have only been able to take quick looks at a limited number of threads. In any case, most of the information leaked was already known or suspected and I don't have a problem with that. Obama was going to be transparent and the leaks only helped him keep his word. The one problem is that a small part of the information might get someone killed and if that information had been filtered out of the dump I would have no problem with the leaks. If a life is lost because of the leak, the people involved should be punished. That data base was just as bad as what Bush was doing with his internet taps.

The way things are going, I am not sure we can punish a person who is not a US citizen but if we do, the odds are they will use a World War One law passed by -- you guessed it, Woodrow Wilson.

Glen Beck agrees with this as well. The constitution never intended government to have that much power over peoples lives and while we can punish people in our military who were trusted with the information, the government shouldn't have the power to punish newspapers or in this case the web site. As for turning off the servers or cutting credit card service, that shouldn't be something the government can do but should be decided by the companies involved.
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Message 1056973 - Posted: 17 Dec 2010, 13:53:12 UTC - in response to Message 1056558.  

there are limits to the US freedom of speech. Yelling FIRE in a packed theater comes to mind. Inciting a riot is another. Hate speech is particularly limited in that, hate speech leading to harm to others is clearly not. For example anyone that actively eggs on a crowd to attack a person or group can be held responsible for the act

Question is about what is written in constitutions. We all know every government on earth rapes its own constitution.

I suspect every country has restrictions on speech that does not have time to be rebutted, such as yelling jump to the guy on the bridge. I also suspect nearly every country prohibits child pornography. Those exceptions in the US were created by judges who didn't believe that the word "no" means no. In many other free countries these exceptions are in their constitutions.

BTW about yelling FIRE in a packed theater. You can yell it. Obviously you can if there is a fire. You can also yell it if you don't cause a panic. It is the causing a panic part that is actually illegal. If you read the case you will notice a pesky word "and" in there.

The simple lesson learned is DON'T do it if its a possibility and likely to cause the panic. Since we cannot know what a herd of people is likely to do then its best to not do it. Heck thats as bad as firing a gun off in a theater. The outcomes are kinda predictable



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Message 1056983 - Posted: 17 Dec 2010, 14:18:35 UTC - in response to Message 1056861.  

If a life is lost because of the leak, the people involved should be punished.


Dick Cheney's release of Valerie Plame's CIA activities was much more dangerous and I don't recall much hand wringing by the rightists after that one.


I do not fight fascists because I think I can win.
I fight them because they are fascists.
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A riot is the language of the unheard. -Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Message 1056995 - Posted: 17 Dec 2010, 15:03:54 UTC

No credible evidence has emerged that any of the WikiLeaks-released material has has caused anyone to be killed. Even U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates has said that the handwringing over WikiLeaks releases has been overblown. Michael
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Message 1057032 - Posted: 17 Dec 2010, 16:21:37 UTC - in response to Message 1056973.  

The simple lesson learned is DON'T do it if its a possibility and likely to cause the panic. Since we cannot know what a herd of people is likely to do then its best to not do it. Heck thats as bad as firing a gun off in a theater. The outcomes are kinda predictable

You should go to the theater more often. Guns get fired off all the time.

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Message 1057053 - Posted: 17 Dec 2010, 16:44:09 UTC - in response to Message 1057032.  

I plan on staying away from theaters in your neighborhood. I assume you are talking about on screen guns. I was talking about in theater guns.


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Message 1057054 - Posted: 17 Dec 2010, 16:47:33 UTC

I'm talking about live theater.

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Message 1057058 - Posted: 17 Dec 2010, 16:56:20 UTC - in response to Message 1057054.  

even then one can expect to see the gun play. One does not expect someone in the audience to start firing at others in the audience.


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Message 1057523 - Posted: 18 Dec 2010, 15:24:20 UTC - in response to Message 1057207.  
Last modified: 18 Dec 2010, 15:25:25 UTC

There are names (such as informants) in those reports he leaked. He and those that participate in wikileaks have put the names of people in those reports lives in jeopardy.

There are no excuses for doing this.
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Message 1057629 - Posted: 18 Dec 2010, 21:47:28 UTC

Here's something you can put your name to if you agree with the statement.

http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/592/p/dia/action/public/index.sjs?action_KEY=5343
I do not fight fascists because I think I can win.
I fight them because they are fascists.
Chris Hedges

A riot is the language of the unheard. -Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Message 1088561 - Posted: 19 Mar 2011, 21:04:28 UTC

While protests are happening globally as we speak in support of Bradley Manning (arrests are happening at this moment in the Whitehouse) it is worth remembering what is at stake.

John Pilger discussing freedom of the press
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Message 1088812 - Posted: 20 Mar 2011, 15:38:56 UTC - in response to Message 1088788.  

wrong again but who's counting. this is part of the neocon culture. Birthers, muslim shouting, WMD finding, regime changing, freedom fighting... lies all lies. You forget that Newt Gingrich's policy of never stop attacking and never apologize also employs the tactic of a little truth in a big whopper of a lie makes a good story. Check snopes if you need to. you'll find that most of the socalled Neocon talking points are just fabrications made whole cloth from a stitch of truth. It's hard to believe them. How many times have Neocons cried wolf and then were found to be lying. Pretty much all the time. SO When I hear Neocons decrying something from across the aisle I assume on pretense that they are lying


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Message boards : Politics : Wiki Leaks and free speech


 
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