Wiki Leaks and free speech

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Message 1055116 - Posted: 11 Dec 2010, 19:00:41 UTC

I don't know about anyone else, but I've been watching the Wikileaks story unfold since the summer with growing concern about what is happening to freedom of the press and free speach.

Whatever you think about the information leaked, or the personal character of the Julian Assange himself, surely everyone here is shocked at the calls for his assassination and the efforts made to shut his site down.

It has been noted by the press that while Visa, Mastercard and Paypal refuse to process donations to Wikileaks they are quite happy to allow you to use them to donate to groups affiliated with the Klu Klux Klan (so long as you declare that you are white).

Now the US are proposing to bring charges against him under the Espionage act. Remember, Wikileaks did not steal these documents, they merely published them along with many other media outlets such as The New York Times and the Guardian, even Fox News has discussed the information in the leaked cables.

This article by Naomi Wolf is a must read for all American citizens as it gives some of the history of this act and how it might effect your civil liberties.

Espionage Act: How the Government Can Engage in Serious Aggression Against the People of the United States
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Message 1055147 - Posted: 11 Dec 2010, 20:03:02 UTC - in response to Message 1055116.  
Last modified: 11 Dec 2010, 20:03:57 UTC

I got to listen to NPR the other night and got to hear about the AT&T whistle blower. remember him? the guy that thought that it was suspicious that a private company was coopting itself with the NSA/CIA into listening to our phone call and reading our emails. Something that is highly illegal without a warrant and is never done. yet the whistle blower was deemed the bad guy and not the jackasses that insist on corrupting or evading the Constitution


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Message 1055166 - Posted: 11 Dec 2010, 20:57:11 UTC

The jackboot coming down on our freedoms has been enabled by people like Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and those who would vacantly follow them over the edge.

Dena loves to speak of Woodrow Wilson as a great hero of the American people but neglects to look any deeper into his actions than her right wing asshat Guru permits.
Freedom is being crushed due to the blind acceptance of authoritative rule by those who refuse to think situations through to their conclusions.

How does that old quote go?
When fascism comes to America, it will be carrying the flag and wrapped in religion.
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I fight them because they are fascists.
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Message 1055330 - Posted: 12 Dec 2010, 8:30:48 UTC

I'm all for what Wikileaks is doing. And this is coming from someone who had a Mother and Father working for NSA(maybe they cleaned toilets-I don't know and they never said). And I thoroughly dislike liberals and liberal media. Did not vote for Nixon, Reagan, Bush I or II, or McCain. Nor their opposites. I voted for "others" of a different ilk.

Expose 'em all. All worms and wormlike. 'cept me, of course.

Keep leaking Wikileaks. Love it.

iWorm 'em.
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Message 1055456 - Posted: 12 Dec 2010, 19:09:23 UTC

I'm also supportive of the actions of Wikileaks, as, so it seems, are most people in the UK. Perhaps thats because in recent months, we've been treated to the dubious pleasure of seeing politicians virtually sell their souls for a bit of power. Quite sickening. In fact, even most readers of the Daily Mail (on-line) are supportive of Wikileaks - which is quite something, as Daily Mail readers are often seen as the "hang 'em and flog 'em" brigade! I suppose thats the inevitable result, when people are lied to with contempt by politicians.

There is probably more truth now, in the old adage that the last honest politician to enter the Houses of Parliament, was Oliver Cromwell - that was over 350 years ago. As per others here, what I find disturbing, are the actions of certain 'financial institutions', seemingly at the behest of the US Government. Its high time that all these politicians realised, just who they answer to - the words in Robert Waite's 'signature' may well be a timely reminder to them. As for the 'sexual assault' charges in Sweden, against Assange, they do smell very strongly of a conspiracy and I'm not someone who believes in conspiracies at every turn.

Oh, while I think about it, is there any chance that Ms Palin could be charged with incitement to commit murder - just for starters.



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Message 1055505 - Posted: 12 Dec 2010, 22:39:04 UTC

In principle I support what Wikileaks declares itself as.

I do not support all of the publishing they have chosen to do.

But I do support their rights of free speech.

DDoS attacks on those who have chosen to simply cut ties with them, I do not support.

The subtlety of diplomacy is of course going to look bad in the light of day. But it should not have been broadcast wide enough for it to be "leaked" so easily either.

If they shut down wikileaks completely, another will appear. Big game of Whack-a-mole.(no pun intended)
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Message 1055586 - Posted: 13 Dec 2010, 6:01:40 UTC - in response to Message 1055116.  

Now the US are proposing to bring charges against him under the Espionage act. Remember, Wikileaks did not steal these documents, they merely published them along with many other media outlets such as The New York Times and the Guardian, even Fox News has discussed the information in the leaked cables.

You have said the magic word. Steal. The information is stolen. Wikileaks is in possession of stolen items. That is a crime. Wikileaks is using these stolen things to make money. That is the crime of money laundering.

That news story referenced by your quote says they (DOJ) are looking beyond the Espionage Act to other laws. These are the laws they will be looking at. Simple and easy convictions. Freedom of speech never enters the picture.

I don't know about anyone else, but I've been watching the Wikileaks story unfold since the summer with growing concern about what is happening to freedom of the press and free speach.

Is Wikileaks based in the United States? If they are not then there is no First Amendment and no freedom of speech or freedom of the press. Only inside the United States are those freedoms granted. And that is the reason Mr. Assange isn't in Gitmo being water boarded. No other country would take what he has done.

Whatever you think about the information leaked, or the personal character of the Julian Assange himself, surely everyone here is shocked at the calls for his assassination and the efforts made to shut his site down.

I'm not surprised at all. Perhaps I'm just more cynical. As to actually assassinating him, serves no purpose. He is just the public information officer. You don't shoot the messenger. As to the attempts to shut him down, I fully suspect he is behind the attacks on his web site. After all he wants much more than 15 minutes of fame. Can you think of a better way?

It has been noted by the press that while Visa, Mastercard and Paypal refuse to process donations to Wikileaks they are quite happy to allow you to use them to donate to groups affiliated with the Klu Klux Klan (so long as you declare that you are white).

Last time I checked the KKK wasn't into money laundering. There is a provision in the Patriot Act that makes Visa, Mastercard and PayPal guilty of the felony crime of money laundering if they knowingly process dirty money. I'm sure their CEO's and boards of directors don't want to go to jail for Mr. Assange. (Do you think they should?) This is the same reason they have dropped processing funds for extreme violent pornography, worried that it might be ruled obscene and then they are guilty for handling the money. (You do follow freedom of the press enough to know this happened didn't you?)

This article by Naomi Wolf is a must read for all American citizens as it gives some of the history of this act and how it might effect your civil liberties.

Espionage Act: How the Government Can Engage in Serious Aggression Against the People of the United States


I support freedom of the press. I support Wikileaks right to publish legally obtained material. I don't think anyone would support going into the CIA and dragging out a file cabinet and publishing the contents and calling that freedom of the press.

What he has done is changed what computers will look like forever. The will not have USB, Firewire or E-Sata ports in the future. They will not have access to the internet in the future so that you can't FTP or e-mail a file. They will not be portable if they have any internal storage. There will be no way to save data or make backups from them. Not only will these be the required computer in the government but in every smart private business. Private cloud computing. He will have forever made it an order of magnitude harder for a legitimate news organization to collect dirt on the government.

Damn fool idiot.

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Message 1055840 - Posted: 14 Dec 2010, 5:37:57 UTC - in response to Message 1055166.  

Dena loves to speak of Woodrow Wilson as a great hero of the American people but neglects to look any deeper into his actions than her right wing asshat Guru permits.

Wow, Robert.
I hope you read closely enough to realize that I disagree with much of what Dena says here.
But you just put your foot in it ... big time ... saying Dena raises Wilson to the level of the greatest American president.
As I've long suspected, you do not read certain things very closely.
If you did, you'd know you've just claimed the exact opposite of what Dena says.
Strangely, seeing a post from Dena for the first time in a while, in this very thread, and not reading her responding to your error is shocking.
Then again, maybe she steers around reading much of what you have to say, Robert. And I think it's more than just conservatives steering around you, Robert. ;)
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Message 1055962 - Posted: 14 Dec 2010, 15:57:48 UTC

Well Sarge, I read quotes like this one and I guess I just take a leap of faith that the author is supportive of Wilson...

I have been living in a socialist like country all my life and while it hasn't treated me all that bad, I fear very much what we are becoming because it could become very evil. To understand what we are dealing with you should read Woodrow wilson and the Roots of Modern Liberalism. This book will put you in the head of of the Progressive movement and you will find by wilson's own words that the end goal is form of government very much like what Russia had before 1990.

PS:
If you are going to quote me, that's fine but please don't proceed to misquote me in your own text under it.
I do not fight fascists because I think I can win.
I fight them because they are fascists.
Chris Hedges

A riot is the language of the unheard. -Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Message 1055967 - Posted: 14 Dec 2010, 16:14:05 UTC - in response to Message 1055840.  

Strangely, seeing a post from Dena for the first time in a while, in this very thread, and not reading her responding to your error is shocking.
Then again, maybe she steers around reading much of what you have to say, Robert. And I think it's more than just conservatives steering around you, Robert. ;)


I may be tired after a long all night shift or my computer may be malfunctioning, but I have looked this thread up and down several times and can find nothing posted by Dena.
I guess she steered so wide that she slid out of the forums.

I do not fight fascists because I think I can win.
I fight them because they are fascists.
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A riot is the language of the unheard. -Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Message 1056023 - Posted: 14 Dec 2010, 18:14:16 UTC - in response to Message 1055586.  
Last modified: 14 Dec 2010, 18:14:57 UTC

Now the US are proposing to bring charges against him under the Espionage act. Remember, Wikileaks did not steal these documents, they merely published them along with many other media outlets such as The New York Times and the Guardian, even Fox News has discussed the information in the leaked cables.

You have said the magic word. Steal. The information is stolen. Wikileaks is in possession of stolen items. That is a crime. Wikileaks is using these stolen things to make money. That is the crime of money laundering.

That news story referenced by your quote says they (DOJ) are looking beyond the Espionage Act to other laws. These are the laws they will be looking at. Simple and easy convictions. Freedom of speech never enters the picture.

I don't know about anyone else, but I've been watching the Wikileaks story unfold since the summer with growing concern about what is happening to freedom of the press and free speach.

Is Wikileaks based in the United States? If they are not then there is no First Amendment and no freedom of speech or freedom of the press. Only inside the United States are those freedoms granted. And that is the reason Mr. Assange isn't in Gitmo being water boarded. No other country would take what he has done.

Whatever you think about the information leaked, or the personal character of the Julian Assange himself, surely everyone here is shocked at the calls for his assassination and the efforts made to shut his site down.

I'm not surprised at all. Perhaps I'm just more cynical. As to actually assassinating him, serves no purpose. He is just the public information officer. You don't shoot the messenger. As to the attempts to shut him down, I fully suspect he is behind the attacks on his web site. After all he wants much more than 15 minutes of fame. Can you think of a better way?

It has been noted by the press that while Visa, Mastercard and Paypal refuse to process donations to Wikileaks they are quite happy to allow you to use them to donate to groups affiliated with the Klu Klux Klan (so long as you declare that you are white).

Last time I checked the KKK wasn't into money laundering. There is a provision in the Patriot Act that makes Visa, Mastercard and PayPal guilty of the felony crime of money laundering if they knowingly process dirty money. I'm sure their CEO's and boards of directors don't want to go to jail for Mr. Assange. (Do you think they should?) This is the same reason they have dropped processing funds for extreme violent pornography, worried that it might be ruled obscene and then they are guilty for handling the money. (You do follow freedom of the press enough to know this happened didn't you?)

This article by Naomi Wolf is a must read for all American citizens as it gives some of the history of this act and how it might effect your civil liberties.

Espionage Act: How the Government Can Engage in Serious Aggression Against the People of the United States


I support freedom of the press. I support Wikileaks right to publish legally obtained material. I don't think anyone would support going into the CIA and dragging out a file cabinet and publishing the contents and calling that freedom of the press.

What he has done is changed what computers will look like forever. The will not have USB, Firewire or E-Sata ports in the future. They will not have access to the internet in the future so that you can't FTP or e-mail a file. They will not be portable if they have any internal storage. There will be no way to save data or make backups from them. Not only will these be the required computer in the government but in every smart private business. Private cloud computing. He will have forever made it an order of magnitude harder for a legitimate news organization to collect dirt on the government.

Damn fool idiot.

Gary, I don't really know where to start with replying to this post because it is full of so much that is wrong. I was hoping someone else would take it on, but I guess like me they just don't know where to start. I'll just make a few general points on the things that leap out at me:

1) Freedom of the press is guaranteed in other countries apart from the US.
2) Information is not the same as stolen property, and if that information exposes wrong doing by the government then those leaking it should be applauded, not vilified.
3) Jullian Assange hasn't actually broken any laws (with respect to the leaked information) so how can there be money laundering? Or do you want to see all journalists that find out "secret" information on your government's wrong doing to be criminalised? Surely you can see that this will be a huge blow for democracy?
4)I remember the days when government computer systems were exactly how you described them. It wasn't that long ago as I was working for the government (less than 10 years ago). However, there is no way that the cat is going to be put back in the bag now. Only a dictatorship such as China could manage that. It is up to the American people if they are going to let their government get away with it. Or are you afraid that if you stand up for your rights you'll end up being water boarded in Guantanimo?
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Message 1056027 - Posted: 14 Dec 2010, 18:19:11 UTC

Is Bradley Manning a hero?

CNN article on Berkeley's proposition to make a resolution honouring the suspected Wikileaks source.

There are also rumours that Bradley is being tortured while in military custody.
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Message 1056035 - Posted: 14 Dec 2010, 18:36:28 UTC - in response to Message 1055962.  

Well Sarge, I read quotes like this one and I guess I just take a leap of faith that the author is supportive of Wilson...

I have been living in a socialist like country all my life and while it hasn't treated me all that bad, I fear very much what we are becoming because it could become very evil. To understand what we are dealing with you should read Woodrow wilson and the Roots of Modern Liberalism. This book will put you in the head of of the Progressive movement and you will find by wilson's own words that the end goal is form of government very much like what Russia had before 1990.

PS:
If you are going to quote me, that's fine but please don't proceed to misquote me in your own text under it.


Iona will have to pardon me for seeing the "na" and thinking it was Dena that posted. An extreme rarity for me.
And where have I misrepresented what you said? I am saying you've misrepresented what Dena's said.
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Message 1056039 - Posted: 14 Dec 2010, 18:38:45 UTC - in response to Message 1056023.  

1) Freedom of the press is guaranteed in other countries apart from the US.

Name two where it is in the same absolute form. Hard to do. Many have partially free presses however.

2) Information is not the same as stolen property, and if that information exposes wrong doing by the government then those leaking it should be applauded, not vilified.

Are you saying that information is not property? or that it can not be stolen? Good luck on that one.


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Message 1056093 - Posted: 14 Dec 2010, 20:59:24 UTC - in response to Message 1056039.  

Name two where it is in the same absolute form.


Iceland, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Belgium, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Switzerland, Ireland, Germany. I could go on.

It's even enshrined in my country's Bill of Rights.



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Message 1056108 - Posted: 14 Dec 2010, 21:48:33 UTC - in response to Message 1056093.  
Last modified: 14 Dec 2010, 21:55:03 UTC

Name two where it is in the same absolute form.


Iceland, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Belgium, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Switzerland, Ireland, Germany. I could go on.

It's even enshrined in my country's Bill of Rights.



I see you country has limited freedom. As I said the absolute freedom as found in the US Constitution is hard to find. Nazi hate speech is protected in the USA.

http://hypequote.com/united-states-land-free-speech-nowhere-speech-freer-not-even-here-where-we-sedulously-cultivate-it--1
Perhaps Mr. Churchill got it wrong, but I don't think so.
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Message 1056285 - Posted: 15 Dec 2010, 15:49:32 UTC - in response to Message 1056108.  

Name two where it is in the same absolute form.


Iceland, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Belgium, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Switzerland, Ireland, Germany. I could go on.

It's even enshrined in my country's Bill of Rights.



I see you country has limited freedom. As I said the absolute freedom as found in the US Constitution is hard to find. Nazi hate speech is protected in the USA.

http://hypequote.com/united-states-land-free-speech-nowhere-speech-freer-not-even-here-where-we-sedulously-cultivate-it--1
Perhaps Mr. Churchill got it wrong, but I don't think so.


The fact is that freedom of the press (and more generally, of speech) may be enshrined in a country's constitution, but the practical exercise thereof may be inconsistent, at best. (Given my country's recent history, there is good reason for at least one of the limitations on freedom of expression in the South African Bill of Rights. In practice, however, there are very real threats to freedom of expression in general, and press freedom in particular, in South Africa today. Sadly, these threats emanate from the government itself, which is seeking to pass a controversial law that will further limit press freedom (the Protection of Information Bill) and to impose a media tribunal. As a consequence, South Africa's ranking in independent assessments of press freedom by country is falling.)

But the point is, there are many countries where absolute press freedom is guaranteed, in theory at least. According to independent surveys (Reporters Without Borders; Freedom House), it seems quite a few may be achieving this in practice, too.

I am sure Winston was right when he said what he said, when he said it. :)
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Message 1056370 - Posted: 15 Dec 2010, 19:48:38 UTC - in response to Message 1056108.  

Name two where it is in the same absolute form.


Iceland, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Belgium, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Switzerland, Ireland, Germany. I could go on.

It's even enshrined in my country's Bill of Rights.



I see you country has limited freedom. As I said the absolute freedom as found in the US Constitution is hard to find. Nazi hate speech is protected in the USA.

http://hypequote.com/united-states-land-free-speech-nowhere-speech-freer-not-even-here-where-we-sedulously-cultivate-it--1
Perhaps Mr. Churchill got it wrong, but I don't think so.
there are limits to the US freedom of speech. Yelling FIRE in a packed theater comes to mind. Inciting a riot is another. Hate speech is particularly limited in that, hate speech leading to harm to others is clearly not. For example anyone that actively eggs on a crowd to attack a person or group can be held responsible for the act



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Message 1056383 - Posted: 15 Dec 2010, 20:15:59 UTC - in response to Message 1056370.  

]there are limits to the US freedom of speech. Yelling FIRE in a packed theater comes to mind. Inciting a riot is another. Hate speech is particularly limited in that, hate speech leading to harm to others is clearly not. For example anyone that actively eggs on a crowd to attack a person or group can be held responsible for the act

Now, now, Skil, let's not remind people of these little caveats. It would really ruin the argument they're trying to make, that our USA brand of freedom of speech is better than anyone else's.
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Message 1056391 - Posted: 15 Dec 2010, 20:27:05 UTC

Wonder how freedom of speech is handled in ET land. The "advanced" ETs, that is.
Since they know their "speech" can be broadcasted to Outer Space(at least before they became "advanced"-see, why would they want to corrupt/enlighten or notify), they may want to throttle/suppress the "signal". Commie ETs.

Would they want us to know how enlightened or not they are?

Free speech. Only for those made of meat.

'cept worms.

iWorm 'em.
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