> Well, this kinda' turned into a pissin' & moanin' thread, so I'll vent
> here, too.
>
> IMO, the s/w is reasonably decent for an R1, especially when taking into
> account the nature of the project (DC, University run, non-profit,
> non-commercial, freeware, etc., etc.).
>
> BUT the infrastrucure COMPLETELY sucks, w/a capital 'C'!
>
> There are two possible reasons, AFAIC:
>
> 1] Gross Incompetence
>
> 2] Arrogant Disregard
>
> I highly suspect #2.
>
> Unfortunately, I really like the science behind SETI, and believe its purpose
> to be compelling, important, and noble.
>
> And there's the rub...
>
> My $0.02.
>
> Strat
>

I'm sure if you were in charge you'd have done things much better.

The simple fact is we all have the choice to use Boinc or Classic. No one is forcing us to be here.

Furthermore you cannot expect someone to be able to predict the future and properly prepare for it. Consider this a post-beta beta test. The increased users and load is good. It gives them the opportunity to test the system and make changes as necessary.

You cannot expect something as young as S@H/Boinc to be as stable as a project as old as S@H Classic from day one. If you do then I think you are being arrogant.

I understand that this was probably pushed out of beta too soon. You dont release a program without a public beta that is posted to the Classic Site as a news item first. If this were labled a public beta then the excuses for the lack of work units, and server outages could be expected, but it was labled the new release version and led users to believe that the classic module is being phased out soon and its best to just upgrade and convert now. Thats what I did. The classic interface was not getting any new work units either, the server was down etc. I dont believe this is out of incompetence or arrogance, i just believe that they were not ready as they thought they were to handle the Seti Classic users converting and using BOINC so quickly. I hope they get this resolved soon.

"You dont release a program without a public beta that is posted to the Classic Site as a news item first. If this were labled a public beta then the excuses for the lack of work units, and server outages could be expected, but it was labled the new release version and led users to believe that the classic module is being phased out soon and its best to just upgrade and convert now."
__________________

Public beta has already been going on for many months. 18,000+ testers.

I was lead to belive this was the next setti@home,n everyone was going to switch in the next 2 months.now I find out this is still a alpha. OK what should I do.wait N hope boinc pulls it's head outa it's ase or say screw it N go back to the old setti
or just say screw it?

PS yes I'm pissed N I'm not alone bet ya have less N half of the machines than ya had before

> "You dont release a program without a public beta that is posted to the
> Classic Site as a news item first. If this were labled a public beta then the
> excuses for the lack of work units, and server outages could be expected, but
> it was labled the new release version and led users to believe that the
> classic module is being phased out soon and its best to just upgrade and
> convert now."
> __________________
>
> Public beta has already been going on for many months. 18,000+ testers.
>
> <a> href="http://www.boinc.dk/index.php?page=user_statistics&userid=91863">
>
It is obvious that the Berkley team has been experiencing an unanticipated level of problems with the new release. One can not expect anyone to predict all technical problems that will arise when moving from a model to production. I am willing to forgive and be patient, they will work this out.
However, I find frustrating the difficulties navigating the new site - it takes forever to move around - labeling is less than intuitive and/or informative - and the link to "Seti main page" goes to Classic, not Boinc! It is also very frustrating that "official" explanations are so few and so long in coming. I suppose their time is being spent solving issues, not holding our hands, but a system by which the team could quickly, if briefly, acknowledge issues as they pop up, would go a long way to assuring us that the issue is not on our rigs, and that they do know it has occurred. I think that this would alleviate a lot of the frustration those of us (I speak for myself and those who may agree) who are less knowledgeable are experiencing.
Len

Hallo everybody out there.

I can't believe what I am reading here.

Did ANYONE of you ever spend a thought or two before going over to be so destructive? Does anybody of you really think that sitting around and shouting things like: "Berkly sucks!" or "I am really pissed" will help to make this thing better?

No!

Everybody has the right to be upset, but there will never be a perfect software. Bugs are! And everybody knows this. BOINC / S@H is a very new experience to Berkley a very new experience to all of us. So we
should not condemn it just because of some bugs. It's a great opportunity to support several distributed projects.

So stop wailing and look forward to getting some work, or pack your crappy bag and leave. Leave! Go! Nobody will hold you back or even weep.

Sorry about being so drastically but this thing needed to be said.

Yours,

Marcel Ellerbrok

> Well, this kinda' turned into a pissin' & moanin' thread, so I'll vent
> here, too.
>
> IMO, the s/w is reasonably decent for an R1, especially when taking into
> account the nature of the project (DC, University run, non-profit,
> non-commercial, freeware, etc., etc.).

When I commented earlier on the commercial nature of the project and the fact that people were earning salaries the point I was trying to make was that whilst it is a University run project and not for profit we must remember that the only reason these science loving individuals can carry out this work is because you and I crunch the numbers for them.

It is us who are working for free. Without us these people could not be drawing salaries on this project (I'm not suggesting their salaries are inflated or questioning their loyalty to the science). It is the 5 million odd people out there who crunch that are truly giving all they can.

I agree it is impossible to run a project of this magnitude without salaried staff but they must realise it is impossible to draw there salaries without us giving them our crunching time for free. I dont think you can ask people to donate freely on one hand then expect them to be be happy with shoddy treatment



> BUT the infrastrucure COMPLETELY sucks, w/a capital 'C'!

Most definetly

>
> There are two possible reasons, AFAIC:
>
> 1] Gross Incompetence
>
> 2] Arrogant Disregard
>
> I highly suspect #2.

Probably a bit of both

>
> Unfortunately, I really like the science behind SETI, and believe its purpose
> to be compelling, important, and noble.
>
> And there's the rub...
>
> My $0.02.
>
> Strat
>

> > Public beta has already been going on for many months. 18,000+ testers.

And we encountered a lot of problems, and software and hardware problems.

>..... and the link to "Seti main page" goes to Classic, not Boinc!.....

Well maybe you did not check it out again, but the link now goes to Boinc and not to S@H Classic anymore.
Maybe you did not notice also, but the original name of setiboinc.ssl.berkeley changed to setiweb.ssl.berkeley

So, what is happening here?

Very simple. Some people are really working and trying to fix problems.

Therefore, be patient and please stop al this annoying bla-bla-bla.
It will not fix any problem.
If you can not effort to wait until problems are fixed, you can still leave the project !!

With all respect.

Greetings from Belgium.

YES IT IS ANYBODY OUT NICE WEEKEND @LL ;-)
[/url] [/url]
another OS like NASA SYSTEM 5 or bsd will follow

> If you can not effort to wait until problems are fixed, you can still leave
> the project !!

How many crunchers are you trying to drive away from this project?

How about YOU learning a little patience!!!

We are all irritated by the delays on BOINC, but there is no need to get nasty about it.

Jerry P

> > > Public beta has already been going on for many months. 18,000+
> testers.
>
> And we encountered a lot of problems, and software and
> hardware problems.

Yes indeed.

Therefore, be patient and please stop al this annoying bla-bla-bla.
It will not fix any problem.
If you can not effort to wait until problems are fixed, you can still leave the project !!

As a Late arrival Beta tester I felt that I was out of the loop most of the time.. as it seemed most of the beta testers were.. and when the project went live.. we only found out AFTER it had happened..

And as for other projects.. yep there are plenty to choose from.. some are in beta.. Certainly won't do beta testing with any Berkley project again.. Why should I when we are kept in the dark and feed on bullshit..

as for Seti.. 1 PC WHEN the project is running again.. the rest will be working else where.

and yes .. we do do "Annoying Bla Bla Bla" when we are treated as mushrooms..

> How many crunchers are you trying to drive away from this project?
> We are all irritated by the delays on BOINC, but there is no need to get nasty
> about it.

I am just asking here to all the people who are posting negative things about Boinc to stop their nasty posting about the project.
There are indeed a lot of improvements to do, but the world also was not made in one day.

> How about YOU learning a little patience!!!

BTW, I have been patient for weeks participating in the Beta Test project, and not for only some days.

Greetings from Belgium.

> I am just asking here to all the people who are posting negative things about
> Boinc to stop their nasty posting about the project.

I think its important to remember that whilst Boinc might have some problems the issue here is related to the Seti infrastructure. Boinc is working quite happily for me its just theres no work from Seti.

I've moved to Predictor and I dont know if I will bother coming back.

Neil

Just a thought about the going live of boinc. Is it possible that the release was forced from above and they ignored warnings from the team about problems? My experience with large originations is that the people at the top think they know best. They tend to ignore concerns from the people doing the work that they are not ready.
With them it is an image thing /ego, no next promotion.
Mean while the poor worker has one foot nailed to the floor and is running around in ever decreasing circles. I’m not trying to make excuses for the problems but don’t get hot under the collar. As a newbee to this seti thing I find it fun. Classic still running bionic mmmmmmmmmmm dead as.
Think of this 9 days 1 wu ,100 wu 900 days ,1000 wu 9000 days that is over 24 years. So I will make 1000 when I’m 64.
May be just may be complaints are directed at the wrong people??

Just a thought.

Shoot me down in flames if you want.

gerry

Maybe your right - who knows.

I think the time is right for the Seti team to post an honest explanation of how things have happened and whats gone wrong. If mistakes have been made then admit them. I'm not suggesting we blame individuals however I would have much more respect for the team if they gave us an honest account of this shambles.

Neil

OK NEED TIME TO DEVELOPED RIGHT @LL --RIGHT__nice sunday__
[/url] [/url]

another OS like NASA SYSTEM 5 or bsd will follow

Neil and Gerry, you two are just too right. The big problems here are from what I can see problems caused higher up - they are problems in the planning stages of the project and problems with respect for, and communication with, the members who donate their resources. It seems to have been forgotten that WE are THE "Key Sponsor" of this project, not any of the companies listed on the homepage. We provide much more infrastructure and time and pay a lot more power bills than any of those sponsors. (I do not mean to demean the importance of those sponsors)

Thierry - The people on these boards have a right to speak their mind, and I beleive that contrary to what you have said, the messages they have been writing have a very important contribution to make and do acheive results. If nothing else, they are a way for the project directors to measure and judge the performance of their project, and to implement changes accordingly. I beleive that they have already done some good as communication from Berkeley on the homepage has been updated much more regularly lately.

In fact, I find your police-state messages with statements like "If you can not effort to wait until problems are fixed, you can still leave the project !!" much more harmful to the project than the messages which you are trying to stop.

If you have ever successfully developed a web-based application for 5,000,000 clients on a shoestring budget and implemented it without problems, I'm sure the team would appreciate your constructive suggestions.

If you find the pace too slow, you're free to make a generous cash contribution to the project so that they can buy additional hardware and hire additional staff.

You should keep in mind that not one person will die nor even lose the use of an eye for the lack of up-to-the-minute Boinc-based SETI@Home results.

Bah. Bunch of Monday-morning quarterbacks.

But , there are not 5,000,000 active clients