The Massacre of the Gaza Aid Flotilla

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Matt Giwer
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Message 1000875 - Posted: 5 Jun 2010, 10:17:31 UTC

If I remember correctly I promised my readers evidence Israel claims sovereignty over occupied Gaza. Pardon the delay.

Haaretz
white-house-israel-blockade-of-gaza-unsustainable-1.294257.html

* Published 02:27 05.06.10
* Latest update 02:27 05.06.10

White House: Israel blockade of Gaza unsustainable

As new aid ship nears Hamas-ruled territory, U.S. calls on Israel to rethink
Gaza siege after mid-ocean raid that left nine dead on Monday.

The White House said on Friday Israel's blockade of the Gaza Strip was
unsustainable and urged a Gaza aid vessel sent by pro-Palestinian activists
to divert to an Israeli port to reduce the risk of violence.

"We are working urgently with Israel, the Palestinian Authority, and other
international partners to develop new procedures for delivering more goods
and assistance to Gaza," said Mike Hammer, spokesman for the White House
National Security Council.

"The current arrangements are unsustainable and must be changed. For now, we
call on all parties to join us in encouraging responsible decisions by all
sides to avoid any unnecessary confrontations," Hammer said in a statement.

Israel says its blockade of the Gaza Strip, imposed after Hamas seized the
territory from Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah faction, is meant
to prevent arms and military supplies from reaching the territory's Hamas
rulers.

The Irish-owned Rachel Corrie - a converted merchant vessel bought by
pro-Palestinian activists and named after an American woman killed by an
Israeli bulldozer in the Gaza Strip in 2003 - pressed on despite the earlier
ship's violent interception.

One of the activists on board, Irishman Denis Halliday, a former UN
assistant secretary-general, told Irish radio on Friday they expected to
reach the Israeli-imposed exclusion zone overnight and aimed to continue
towards Gaza in daylight.

On Friday, Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman said: "We will stop
the ship, and also any other ship that will try to harm Israeli sovereignty.
There is no chance the Rachel Corrie will reach the coast of Gaza."


There is Lieberman being quoted as saying access to occupied Gaza will harm Israeli sovereignty over Gaza. No country in the world recognizes Israeli sovereignty outside of its 1948 boundaries. Definitely this is challenging Israel's belligerant occupation of Gaza. There is no question of that.

But here we have the foreign minister, the highest Israeli authority on the subject, claiming sovereignty over Gaza.

As Israel has not annexed Gaza then the only basis for this claim is that Gaza is part of the Israeli empire, whether or not the empire has been declared.

There you have it folks, Imperial Israel.

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Message 1000876 - Posted: 5 Jun 2010, 10:25:47 UTC

Can i be Chewbacca?
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Message 1000878 - Posted: 5 Jun 2010, 10:52:53 UTC - in response to Message 1000876.  
Last modified: 5 Jun 2010, 11:35:53 UTC

Can i be Chewbacca?


I think I know what these imperial storm troopers are up to, Chewy.

Their Death Star has been breeched.

This is the last gasp of the Empire.

The force is with the Palestinians as it has been for 2500 years.
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Message 1000881 - Posted: 5 Jun 2010, 10:59:31 UTC

And i would pick 1 of only 2 characters, other being r2d2, that can't reply ;)
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Message 1000893 - Posted: 5 Jun 2010, 11:42:43 UTC - in response to Message 1000881.  
Last modified: 5 Jun 2010, 11:47:49 UTC

And i would pick 1 of only 2 characters, other being r2d2, that can't reply ;)


But is the Death Star a sphere or does it have six points.

Inquiring minds want to know.

=====

Excuse me. One time I made this joke and I was accused of being antisemitic.

But I got the joke from Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part I which ended with a preview of Part II including Jews in Space and six pointed spaceships.

I can almost recall the lyrics ...
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Message 1000895 - Posted: 5 Jun 2010, 11:51:35 UTC
Last modified: 5 Jun 2010, 11:52:42 UTC

Wookie intelligence has reliably (howl) informed me that the enemy Death Star's primary shield generator (howl, roar) is located in a base named the Hexagon. (more wookie noises)
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Message 1001135 - Posted: 6 Jun 2010, 2:09:44 UTC - in response to Message 1000263.  
Last modified: 6 Jun 2010, 2:10:15 UTC

Having read a lot of news reports on this incident, I have come to the conclusion that Israel is NOT at fault.


Well, I'm glad it's all settled.

If this facts surrounding the circumstances of this incident are so cut and dried, why then won't Israel agree to an international investigation? It seems that the only two countries in the world satisfied that Israel can conduct a full, impartial, and transparent investigation are Israel and the United States.

Of course, the world is still waiting for Israel's report clearing up the allegations of attacks on unarmed civilians in Gaza.

White phosphorus, anyone?

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Message 1001188 - Posted: 6 Jun 2010, 5:55:48 UTC - in response to Message 1000529.  

To answer the simple international law question "CAN ISRAEL IMPOSE A NAVAL BLOCKADE ON GAZA"? Simply put, Yes it can, according to the international law of blockade which was derived from customary international law and codified in the 1909 Declaration of London, then updated in 1994 in a internationally and legally recognized document called the "San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea". Some of the key rules, a blockade must be declared and notified to all belligerents and neutral states, access to neutral ports cannot be blocked, and an area can only be blockaded which is under enemy control. On the basis that Hamas is the ruling entity of Gaza and Israel is in the midst of an armed struggle against that ruling entity, the blockade is legal. Whether or not you agree, it was legal, and the part you will really dislike...the use of force to enforce the blockade and by the Isreali's was also legal, you don't have to like like it but it's legal, moral...well thats a very personal decision, if you hate the evil Jews then its wrong, if you hate the evil terroist Hamas this it was right. This moral decision can only be made by either ignoring the set of facts and actions that makes your side look bad and only use events thats support your position or look closley and fairly at both sides. Personally, the Palestinians have traditionally killed anybody that was Jewish or supported Isreal and the Jews have responed in force killing Palestinian civilians. If you read these posts, It's easy to tell who hates Isreal and who supports Palestinians...both have only justified their actions by blaming the other side and take NO RESPONSIBILITY for their own side murderous actions or try to stop their own sides violence! I'm done.
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Message 1001190 - Posted: 6 Jun 2010, 6:12:56 UTC
Last modified: 6 Jun 2010, 6:24:37 UTC

The Decleration of London and the San Remo Manual are both directed to and govern IAC (international armed conflict). They do not refer to NIAC (non-international armed conflict). IAC is refered to under both as State vs State. Israel does not recognize Gaza as an independent body, or the legitimicy of Hamas rule. In essence, Gaza is a non-entity. Even the Hague convention only refers to IAC.

Israels' war with Hamas is not recognized as an international armed conflict. Israel is acting and citing articles of war that do not apply to the Israeli/Hamas conflict.

Gaza is considered an occupied territory, still, by the UN. Not an occupied State or Country.
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Message 1001202 - Posted: 6 Jun 2010, 8:21:53 UTC - in response to Message 1001188.  
Last modified: 6 Jun 2010, 8:44:34 UTC

To answer the simple international law question "CAN ISRAEL IMPOSE A NAVAL BLOCKADE ON GAZA"?


Can was never the question because it is a self-evident fact that it can. The question is, is it lawful under maritime law? That is separate and distinct from the actual events of boarding the ship and the massacre and that the actions of the passengers were also lawful. If lawful then the perps of the massacre cannot be held responsible for murder but that is as far as it goes.

Simply put, Yes it can, according to the international law of blockade which was derived from customary international law and codified in the 1909 Declaration of London, then updated in 1994 in a internationally and legally recognized document called the "San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea". Some of the key rules, a blockade must be declared and notified to all belligerents and neutral states, access to neutral ports cannot be blocked, and an area can only be blockaded which is under enemy control.


This applies to an armed conflict between belligerent nations, note the plural. Gaza is not a nation nor even a part of a nation. Repeatedly Israel has stated it is not at war with the people of Gaza. As Israel has declared it is not at war with the people of Gaza then it is not at war in any sense. Thus the blockade of aid to the people of Gaza is contrary to the requirement of San Remo.

For purposes of Neutrality as Israel is not at war with Gaza nor with the people of Gaza then the Gaza ports are considered neutral.

If in the future Israel wishes to declare war on the residents of Gaza this will change. But for the moment it is blockading neutrals within the meaning of San Remo.

On the basis that Hamas is the ruling entity of Gaza and Israel is in the midst of an armed struggle against that ruling entity, the blockade is legal.


But if this is what you like to believe then in fact all attacks upon Israel by Hamas are also lawful acts of war and are not terrorist attacks. Thus Hamas camnot be a terrorist organization for the blockade to be lawful. Thus Israel must observe all the rules of warfare including those regarding the protection of civilians during combat. It is not permitted to deprive or harm civilians in any manner that is not a direct necessity of the prosecution of the war. All limits upon everything that is not directly related to its war AFTER it declares that war in the future must be eliminated. As we know the limitations upon imports are arbitrary, gratuitous, capricious and punitive to the people and thus constitute a war crime IF in fact there is a war.

Consider attacking Ben Gurion airport becomes lawful not terror as that is what Israel did in its Lebanon slaughter four years ago. So also is sabotaging port fuel depots for similar reasons. Also rockets on Sderot are lawful as roughly 20% of population of Israel is a member of the military and therefore are lawful targets. Israel uses a similar argument when innocents are killed in their terrorist bombings outside of Israel.

Whether or not you agree, it was legal, and the part you will really dislike...


Rather what I dislike throughout this entire affair the dual standard which you and the Izziehuggers have demonstrated by reciting the applicable law albeit incompletely and avoiding the legal definitions. I also dislike the changing definition of who is involved. For some purposes, the blockade in this case, Hamas is a government but other purposes it is a terrorist organization. I also dislike on one hand it is an (an undeclared) war but on the other not at war when it plays better for Hasbara purposes.

But no one cares what I like so I don't get upset by people not caring. Being of a scientific bent and possessing a reasonably well trained analytic mind it does annoy me immensely when people think they can pull mutually exclusive arguments out of the air and think they will get passed me. That is an insult.

You recite a principle applicable to a declared war yet your expect me not to notice Israel has declared no war and has specifically denied being at war with the primary victims of the blockade.

the use of force to enforce the blockade and by the Isreali's was also legal, you don't have to like like it but it's legal, moral...well thats a very personal decision,


I put the break here because the antisemitic whine is coming.

The fact is even if Israel's actions were as lawful as were Britain's actions in dealing with the Exodus back in 1947 neither the ship nor the passengers are required to do anything in particular because it is lawful. They are in fact free to repel boarders. Whatever right Israel may have (after they declare a war and stop denying they are at war) to use force does not in any way require compliance with the force by anyone else. That is what the folks showed in 1947.

if you hate the evil Jews


The evil ones are all too common in Israel and the its present government, it is packed with racists and fascists without question even in Israel. There the only difference among the citizens is for it or against it.

then its wrong, if you hate the evil terroist Hamas this it was right.


Raising morality is a very dangerous thing to do in this matter.

Did Hamas fire rockets? Yes. At what? Their own property. What are Jews doing living on stolen property? Whining about rockets.

I would strongly advise you to stick to the law after you learn who to prepare a legal brief.

This moral decision can only be made by either ignoring the set of facts and actions that makes your side look bad and only use events thats support your position or look closley and fairly at both sides.


Fairly at both sides. Jews went to Palestine with the purpose of driving out or killing the Palestinians and stealing their private property and real estate. They did so. If they had not the first election would have shitcanned the entire Zionist enterprise. That is a fact.

Please do not respond with a holocaust whine. I can see the Jews being given Bavaria but not Palestine.

Personally, the Palestinians have traditionally killed anybody that was Jewish or supported Isreal and the Jews have responed in force killing Palestinian civilians.


The only killing was of the Zionists. Zionism is an immoral political organization whose only purpose was to steal land from its owners by force. There is no particular reason to confuse Zionist with a Jew as in the US some 40-60 million Christians have declared themselves to be Zionists. I have no particular interest in the minority of jewish Zionists.

If you read these posts, It's easy to tell who hates Isreal and who supports Palestinians...both have only justified their actions by blaming the other side and take NO RESPONSIBILITY for their own side murderous actions or try to stop their own sides violence! I'm done.


As Israel offers no legal recourse for the recovery of stolen property and as in fact it was Israel who used the color of law to facilitate this theft then, absent legal recourse to correct a massive crime against persons and property, it is MORAL to use deadly force to regain what has been stolen.

For the record, Palestinians are people whose ancestors converted from Judaism to Islam and perhaps via Christianity. So the only issue here is which faction of the same people one is dealing with. As all religions are equally stupid that is not a discriminant.

Israel claims to be the outpost of western civilization but when it does not live up to those standards it cries double standard and declares it is no better than other countries in the region by comparing what it did to them.

You will note it was still a massacre whether or not Israel is legally liable by your own recitation.

It is degrading to the discussion to descend into some conspiracy theory that everyone is against the Jews. I am an American therefore Israel is a foreign country to me. It is just one more foreign country out of nearly 200 in most respects. You can click on the USS Liberty link in my sig which makes it different for me. In reading the link you will see Americans have been subject to their tendency to mass murder.

But as an American I can look at our history and see the Amerind religions were the most persecuted. The second most persecuted were the Latter Day Saints and third the Catholics. Jews barely make the "also ran" category. I know what Groucho Marx said. If he had been Catholic he could have said the same thing.
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Message 1001352 - Posted: 6 Jun 2010, 20:58:43 UTC - in response to Message 1001202.  
Last modified: 6 Jun 2010, 21:05:10 UTC

Fayvitt
I'd say that's as close an analogy as you'll need to fit what you've quoted. Instead of carpet bombing, they substitute white phosphorous

That's why they _still_ don't have problems after last war. Very simple.
Besides - it's not enough. They don't need to keep this in secret. Potential victums must know _what_ will happen in answer. This is the main line - not the really killing, but fear of this.
If they throw away 'humans rights' and all of this shit and just simple say 'we will kill everyone who puts our citizens in danger no matter of casulties around' and do that the effect will be much more better.

There one more thing. All this shit economically supported from meadle east countries.
Our security bureow simply made price of this too high if you understand what i mean.
The best way to stop this - stop using oil (which we actually don't need to import :). Then the reachness of m. east countriess will naturally fade away as come and africa return there. I think U. S. just started to switch to alternative several years ago, despite many of it's economy based on it. Smart.

Alex, it's just harder to track Hamas's alledged acts, as they aren't as easily caught on film as tanks, artillery, fighter planes, drones, bulldozers etc all doing the wrong thing at the time.

Then why they judge?
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Message 1001360 - Posted: 6 Jun 2010, 21:47:03 UTC - in response to Message 1000722.  
Last modified: 6 Jun 2010, 21:57:50 UTC


I keep hearing things like that from fruitcakes like Jerry Falwell, Hargee and other well known idiots. Are you saying you believe people like that?

Here I am trying to have a factual discussion and you bring in the crap from Christian nutjobs. Why?

I'm never heard of this people. I just know this as all that was in Checnya. It's natural and can't be other way.

Besides it's what Iran, for example, declares against Israel. Why not us next? Why not you? I answer: no any why. It will be.


The majority of the factions united by Arafat were lead by Christians.

That's simply lie.
And as below you bring up Chechnya just how does one distinguish between such terrorists and the Red Army?

Because we faced the same machine as Israeli now.


The tactics of Russia in Afghanistan in the 80s are quite well documented including the exploding kids toys
Never existed. Lie.
We killed innopropriate amount people but never specially targeted kids. If we killed kids it was the same carpet tactic as at all another.


Pardon me if I have no sympathy for the Russians getting as good as they gave.
Don't you have every week coffins from there?
By the way, we can walk there everywhere unprotected. 'Russia = good'
Don't worry, years will pass, you will go away with shame. Or not, i forgot about your strength in self-PR.
The truth is that Afghan is no-need for anyone.
By the way before you came, Afghan have no drugs-dealers and makers.

As for the right of self determination for the people of Chechnya I am not against it but I see no cause for Russian rule in any event.

In a fact it still part of my country
Despite i want better it not to be part of it also
Only problems, money, loosing lives, no any profit at all.
Consider the decades of Bolshevik terror the Russians visited upon Chechnya. I can see why they might hold a grudge or five.

Terror was everywhere, in Checnya also, no bigger, no smaller, so what?
Stalin has his own manners of solving problems. They were very effective by the way, so effective that we loosed the best of our men genetics forever.

In Israel the human shield is called various things such as the "neighbor policy." Under several names it has been outlawed by their own Supreme Court many times over the years. And the "most moral army in the world" has never stopped using Palestinians as human shields.
Maybe. But i still have no evidence of any that i can _call really_ a human shield.

As I said, I have never said Israel was any better than the Palestinians. I have pointed out they have yet to use all the terrorist methods against the Jews that the Jews have used against them and against the British.

That's why as i said existance of Israel is good. They cost each other, the point is don't let to die of any side. While two predators eating each other we can sleep well. Natural circle of life if you want.
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Message 1001362 - Posted: 6 Jun 2010, 21:59:55 UTC - in response to Message 1001352.  

Fayvitt
I'd say that's as close an analogy as you'll need to fit what you've quoted. Instead of carpet bombing, they substitute white phosphorous

That's why they _still_ don't have problems after last war. Very simple.
Besides - it's not enough. They don't need to keep this in secret. Potential victums must know _what_ will happen in answer. This is the main line - not the really killing, but fear of this.


Israel denies the use of phosphorus was a harm to civilians in any way, that its use was strictly from military necessity.

But your defense of its use confirms it was a war crime against civilians. So you agree it was a war crime. What are you posting about? You are in agreement with Fayvitt.

If they throw away 'humans rights' and all of this shit and just simple say 'we will kill everyone who puts our citizens in danger no matter of casulties around' and do that the effect will be much more better.


Israel has already said and done that. The issue here is attacks on civilians as you have agreed is an Israeli war crime.

There one more thing. All this shit economically supported from meadle east countries.


That was good enough to kick your sorry asses out of Afghanistan.

Our security bureow simply made price of this too high if you understand what i mean.


Russian atrocities did not work in Afghanistan.

The best way to stop this - stop using oil (which we actually don't need to import :).


I do not see your point. Why would we not want to deal with oil countries? Israel is important only to itself and then only to the jewish Israelis who benefit from Apartheid.

Then the reachness of m. east countriess will naturally fade away as come and africa return there. I think U. S. just started to switch to alternative several years ago, despite many of it's economy based on it. Smart.


It is a strange mind that connects the approval of atrocities with oil.

Alex, it's just harder to track Hamas's alledged acts, as they aren't as easily caught on film as tanks, artillery, fighter planes, drones, bulldozers etc all doing the wrong thing at the time.


Then why they judge?


What is there to judge about a massacre in international waters? That is what is under discussion here. I see no connection between oil and an Israeli massacre. Perhaps you could explain.

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Message 1001367 - Posted: 6 Jun 2010, 22:21:15 UTC - in response to Message 1001362.  
Last modified: 6 Jun 2010, 22:42:30 UTC


Israel denies the use of phosphorus was a harm to civilians in any way, that its use was strictly from military necessity.

But your defense of its use confirms it was a war crime against civilians. So you agree it was a war crime. What are you posting about? You are in agreement with Fayvitt.

It hurt itself. One hand make a look that it's don't know what doing another. It's very bad 'personality split' in a size of a country.


That was good enough to kick your sorry asses out of Afghanistan.

No one 'kick our asses'. We spend 10 years, loosed 15051 lives, killed 1-2 millon (still counting), found no vodka, gold or wothly women and left.


Russian atrocities did not work in Afghanistan.

It did work in fact. The war started from that we killed America's settled King omiung by special forces in it's own palace and all of it's generals. Thats i always laughing when someone says that US 'searching' for well-known al-kaeda leader in afghan.

I do not see your point. Why would we not want to deal with oil countries?
Because you're the next 'Israel'
And your president (or who stands at his back) clearly see this

Israel is important only to itself and then only to the jewish Israelis who benefit from Apartheid.

By the way, science is very strong there
You probably using now computer developed there
(Pentium M and Core duo in all cases)

Then the reachness of m. east countriess will naturally fade away as come and africa return there. I think U. S. just started to switch to alternative several years ago, despite many of it's economy based on it. Smart.


It is a strange mind that connects the approval of atrocities with oil.

Blood and oil, you know, always connected last 50-70 years or more

What is there to judge about a massacre in international waters? That is what is under discussion here. I see no connection between oil and an Israeli massacre. Perhaps you could explain.

Okay - there's no any massacre. Gaza is blocked. Some stupid idiots want to be batmans. The ship was taken by some kind of SWAT under control to reverse, they attacked SWAT, SWAT killed some of batmans in process. That's all.
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Message 1001372 - Posted: 6 Jun 2010, 22:49:20 UTC

http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0606/idf-admits-doctoring-audio-gaza-flotilla/

On top of confiscating independent audio and video recordings from the passengers and refusing to release their own recordings in their entirety they have doctored what they have released.

There is no point in debating the nature of the edit. Any editing eliminates, not reduces but eliminates, its evidentiary value.

My comments follow.

=====

IDF admits doctoring audio of raid on Gaza flotilla

By Daniel Tencer
Sunday, June 6th, 2010 -- 3:08 pm

israelflag20080507 IDF admits doctoring audio of raid on Gaza flotilla

The Israeli Defense Force has issued a "clarification" admitting it manipulated audio of its raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla.

On Friday, the IDF released audio of what it said was an exchange between Israel Navy officers and the crew of the Mavi Marmara, the main vessel in the flotilla. In it, voices could be heard telling the Israeli soldiers to "go back to Auschwitz" and "we're helping Arabs go against the US -- don't forget 9/11, guys."

But flotilla passengers quickly began disputing the veracity of the audio clip.

Investigative journalist Max Blumenthal reports that the head of the Free Gaza movement, Huwaida Arraf, could be heard on the videotape asserting the flotilla's right to enter Gaza territory. But Arraf says she wasn't on board the Mavi Marmara, and was actually on board another ship, the Challenger One. Another flotilla member whose voice can be heard on the audio, Ali Abunimah, also said he wasn't aboard the Mavi Marmara.

According to a news report from the Palestinian news agency Ma'an, Arraf suggests the audio of her that appeared in the clip came from an earlier exchange between her and Israeli forces, but she admits she "could not be sure" she didn't repeat her assertion during exchanges with the IDF during the raid.

On Saturday, the IDF's public blog issued a "correction" explaining that the tape had been edited "so as to make it easier for people to listen to the exchange."

The IDF stated:

There have been questions regarding the authenticity of the recording as well as its attribution to a communication with the Mavi Marmara.

So to clarify: the audio was edited down to cut out periods of silence over the radio as well as incomprehensible comments so as to make it easier for people to listen to the exchange. We have now uploaded the entire segment of 5 minutes and 58 seconds in which the exchange took place and the comments were made.

This transmission had originally cited the Mavi Marmara ship as being the source of these remarks, however, due to an open channel, the specific ship or ships in the “Freedom Flotilla” responding to the Israeli Navy could not be identified.

The IDF's latest version of the audio is actually the third version the military organization has released. Its first audio version of the incident, a one-minute clip released the day of the raid, did not include any of the controversial comments -- no voices can be heard saying "Go back to Auschwitz" or "remember 9/11."

Critics of Israel have suggested the audio clip -- and the IDF's admission it was edited -- shows the Israeli military is involved in a propaganda campaign to discredit the flotilla as a humanitarian effort. And Blumenthal notes that the IDF audio has already made its way into US media as fact.

"Hours after the IDF’s admission, major news outlets which reported on the doctored audio clip as though it was a shocking revelation and not a scandalous forgery have still not corrected themselves," Blumenthal writes.

Some of Israel's other efforts to sway public opinion its way have resulted in embarrassment. Government spokesmen on Saturday apologized for distributing a video that mocked the flotilla members, nine of whom died when Israeli commandos raided the flotilla on Monday.

The video, a satire on "We are the World," shows a group of singers declaring, "There's no people dying/So the best that we can do/Is create the greatest bluff of all/We must go on pretending day by day that in Gaza/There's crisis hunger and plague."

Following a storm of protests from critics pointing out that the UN has declared that Gaza is in the midst of a humanitarian crisis, the Israeli Government Press Office declared, "Due to a misunderstanding on our part, earlier (Friday) we inadvertently issued a video link that had been sent for our perusal. ... It was not intended for general release. The contents of the video in no way represent the official policy of either the Government Press Office or of the State of Israel."

The following audio is the original clip released by the Israeli Defense Force on May 31, 2010. It does not include any of the inflammatory comments heard in later versions.

[ALL THREE AUDIO VERSIONS ARE LINKED AT THE SOURCE URL ABOVE]

=====

Consider the two "inflammatory" statements. There is no point to inflaming anyone but in moments of stress people have a tendency to blurt out the truth. But who are these statements apparently inserted by the IDF or at a minimum given a prominence they do not deserve do they inflame?

"Go back to Auschwitz" obviously targets Jews but Jews are already converted, in the choir and using the same hymnal as Israel. [This is an old one which is taken in Israel and by Jews to be calling the Jews Nazis.]

"Remember 9/11" appears to target that same audience but perhaps might include some non-Jews in the US but even if so it is presumed they are also choir members. [This is a reference to Israeli involvement in 9/11 or at least to the established foreknowledge of the event by Israel.]

So the purpose at most is to stir up their existing supporters and not to explain their actions. One can also suggest it lays the foundation for explaining any excessive force [such as the summary executions] as provoked by such statements.

The clear purpose of this is to inflame an us v. them attitude. It is why Netanyahu's first public comment on 9/11 was that it was good for Israel.

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Message 1001373 - Posted: 6 Jun 2010, 22:55:16 UTC

The clear purpose of this is to inflame an us v. them attitude. It is why Netanyahu's first public comment on 9/11 was that it was good for Israel.

Of course it was.
And for Bush also.
And for us also. And for many-many countries also. And for radikal muslims inside America, i counting on it, also.
Israel just on the first page.
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Message 1001381 - Posted: 6 Jun 2010, 23:42:52 UTC - in response to Message 1001367.  


Israel denies the use of phosphorus was a harm to civilians in any way, that its use was strictly from military necessity.

But your defense of its use confirms it was a war crime against civilians. So you agree it was a war crime. What are you posting about? You are in agreement with Fayvitt.

It hurt itself. One hand make a look that it's don't know what doing another. It's very bad 'personality split' in a size of a country.


But you are confirming it was a war crime which is the only point. War crimes are war crimes. The penalty for atrocities against civilians was found to be death by hanging at Nuremberg.

That was good enough to kick your sorry asses out of Afghanistan.

No one 'kick our asses'. We spend 10 years, loosed 15051 lives, killed 1-2 millon (still counting), found no vodka, gold or wothly women and left.


Certainly a well stated brag but fact is the communist murderers were expelled from Afghanistan by the Afghanis.

Russian atrocities did not work in Afghanistan.

It did work in fact. The war started from that we killed America's settled King omiung by special forces in it's own palace and all of it's generals. Thats i always laughing when someone says that US 'searching' for well-known al-kaeda leader in afghan.


There is no defense for Bush's war on Afghanistan I have said that since before the idiot invaded. But I can also trace the threat of invasion and the start of the war planning to six months before 9/11 so it was apparently related to something else.

I do not see your point. Why would we not want to deal with oil countries?
Because you're the next 'Israel'
And your president (or who stands at his back) clearly see this


The US has had a deal with Saudi since the 1930s to keep it in power in return for oil. But in fact the US gets only some 20% of its oil from the middle east so I still don't see your point.

Israel is important only to itself and then only to the jewish Israelis who benefit from Apartheid.

By the way, science is very strong there
You probably using now computer developed there
(Pentium M and Core duo in all cases)


In the good old days I used to chase down such outrageous claims but every time found them to be bullshit. One time there was a claim to inventing the Pentium processor but the reality was only developing the MMX instruction set. Another was developing the image compression for the Mars rovers. That turning out to be an Israeli who once studied under one of the developers of the LZ compression format which was the basis for the one used on the rovers developed by a third party. Such braggart connections.

There have beem many others. I stopped tracing down the nonsense.

Then the reachness of m. east countriess will naturally fade away as come and africa return there. I think U. S. just started to switch to alternative several years ago, despite many of it's economy based on it. Smart.


It is a strange mind that connects the approval of atrocities with oil.

Blood and oil, you know, always connected last 50-70 years or more


Blood and atrocities are distinctly different things in this context. People are always fighting over things of value. Gratuitous massacres are a different thing.

[quote]What is there to judge about a massacre in international waters? That is what is under discussion here. I see no connection between oil and an Israeli massacre. Perhaps you could explain.


Okay - there's no any massacre.[/quote}

Have you no eyes? There was clearly a massacre. The only issue here is whether or not the people who perpetrated it did so in a manner which holds them safe from international prosecution.

Gaza is blocked.


Israel has often stated it is not at war with Gaza.

Some stupid idiots want to be batmans. The ship was taken by some kind of SWAT under control to reverse, they attacked SWAT, SWAT killed some of batmans in process. That's all.


SWAT is a reference to a civilian police method. The subject here is a military attack.

You have stipulated by way of defense that this military attack was unlawful.

There is no question the ship passengers and crew had a right to repel boarders regardless of any immunity from prosecution the Israelis might enjoy. You have stipulated the Israelis have no immunity from prosecution.

By your recitation those involved can stay in Israel for the rest of their lives in order to avoid prosecution. That is their choice. But as you have stipulated this was not a raid protected by international law, the international treaties on piracy going back at least two centuries give any nation the right to capture, try and execute pirates.

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Message 1001384 - Posted: 6 Jun 2010, 23:59:24 UTC - in response to Message 1001373.  

The clear purpose of this is to inflame an us v. them attitude. It is why Netanyahu's first public comment on 9/11 was that it was good for Israel.


Of course it was.


And that is what leads to a reasonable suspicion of Israel's involvement in 9/11.

And for Bush also.


Please explain.

And for us also. And for many-many countries also. And for radikal muslims inside America, i counting on it, also.


The US has always had its radicals of all political and religious persuasions. Mulims are just one more in the mix. There are certainly fewer of them that Christian and Jewish radicals. We even have Americans who are building in territory occupied by Israel which is in itself a war crime.

But no rational person believes the fruitcakes who talk about caliphates and such. When we find radicals who in fact do something we arrest them. It isn't all that hard. The US has had more serious armed radicals such as John Brown back in the 1850s. A century ago the US was dealing with terrorist Marxists. We dealt with them too.

Israel just on the first page.


Its own actions put it there. Like it or not, reasonable or not, lawful or not, the world sees this as a huge negative against Israel. Nothing is going to change that.

Getting back to what you quoted, the reason nothing is going to change that is Israel is only directing its propaganda efforts towards people who are already committed to Israel. The only chance of changing the world's perception is to address everyone else.

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Message 1001389 - Posted: 7 Jun 2010, 0:23:48 UTC - in response to Message 1001381.  
Last modified: 7 Jun 2010, 0:59:42 UTC


But you are confirming it was a war crime which is the only point. War crimes are war crimes. The penalty for atrocities against civilians was found to be death by hanging at Nuremberg.

Nurenberg is a hypocrisy cynic process of winners. It is means nothing - US clearly show it later in Vietnam. If there's were no Nuremberhg there's gotta to be Moscow or London or New York process with same results, but on other side.

The simple fact to be judged about humanity by a country which used nuke against city is very funny

Certainly a well stated brag but fact is the communist murderers were expelled from Afghanistan by the Afghanis.

There's no such fact. We left because country started to collapse (thanks to Gorbachev) and this does not apply to Afghan at all. That was still Stalin's army developed to win against anyone, even Martians. Afghan - a small drop of oil and iron in the ocean.

There is no defense for Bush's war on Afghanistan I have said that since before the idiot invaded. But I can also trace the threat of invasion and the start of the war planning to six months before 9/11 so it was apparently related to something else.

It applied to narcotraffic that's stopped when Taliban came to power. Now you there, all ok - harvest of opium and all this shit doubled twice than before.

By the way, to stop invasion of narcotraffic to USSR was the second main target of ours in the war.

The US has had a deal with Saudi since the 1930s to keep it in power in return for oil. But in fact the US gets only some 20% of its oil from the middle east so I still don't see your point.

US was selling oil and iron to nazi's Germany while was at war with it, so i see no anything strange. War is a just big-profit bloody bisuness, nothing else.

Israel is important only to itself and then only to the jewish Israelis who benefit from Apartheid.

By the way, science is very strong there
You probably using now computer developed there
(Pentium M and Core duo in all cases)


In the good old days I used to chase down such outrageous claims

'As the M line was originally designed in Israel, the first Pentium M was identified by the codename Banias, named after an ancient site in the Golan Heights. Given the product code 80535, it initially had no model number suffix, but was later identified as the Pentium M 705. It was manufactured on a 130 nm process, was released at frequencies from 900 MHz to 1.7 GHz using a 400 MT/s FSB, and had 1 megabyte (MB) of Level 2 cache. The core average TDP (Thermal Design Power) is 24.5 watts.'
'Intel launched its improved Pentium M, formerly known as Dothan, named after another ancient town in Israel, on May 10, 2004.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_M


Blood and atrocities are distinctly different things in this context. People are always fighting over things of value. Gratuitous massacres are a different thing.

Absolutely the same. Dead people have no interest, was they judged and executed or just did get into the massacre and killed. The end for them is one.
For you is not the same, yes. Because you're alive.

Have you no eyes? There was clearly a massacre. The only issue here is whether or not the people who perpetrated it did so in a manner which holds them safe from international prosecution.

No comments. but i'm not agree.
Israel has often stated it is not at war with Gaza.

So what? Blockade does not meas war.
SWAT is a reference to a civilian police method. The subject here is a military attack.

Yes, my mistake. Our SWAT all pro-soldiers, so they acting with no difference and at war also. I should say 'special forces'.

There is no question the ship passengers and crew had a right to repel boarders regardless of any immunity from prosecution the Israelis might enjoy. You have stipulated the Israelis have no immunity from prosecution.
Do you know why we arguing? Because your point is "there's some rights written at the paper" my point is "there's no right except one: the strongest, the smartest, the most despicable". My point is that million years have passed, people not changed. Israel protects his own tribe with all ways he can. It even plays with US in dangerous games. Smart.
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Message 1001397 - Posted: 7 Jun 2010, 0:46:19 UTC - in response to Message 1001384.  
Last modified: 7 Jun 2010, 0:55:28 UTC

And that is what leads to a reasonable suspicion of Israel's involvement in 9/11.

It think if it was it was something like Israel has knew but did not warn


And for Bush also.


Please explain.

Well, who was he before? A simple president. Who he was after? a President Who Protects His Land And People. No matter of countries, Saddam Husseins, oil and money of course.

Second elections result speak by itself.

You know, people much better remember the bad than the good. Specially if news show it appropriete, e. g. "Aaaaaa! America is under Attack! We all gonna die!!!" Every year you have at least 10 9\11 in car accidents or ever more and f"ck knows how much more dead from other unnatural cases - but nobody cares about that even like 9\11.


There are certainly fewer of them that Christian and Jewish radicals.

It is still so.
Look at us - we have in goverment radikals now. Result is shariah in Checnya. I don't worry what is there, problem is sometimes it unclosed cases ends here, in cappital. Already.
And some people reaction at it is like it's normal.
Already.

When we find radicals who in fact do something we arrest them. It isn't all that hard. The US has had more serious armed radicals such as John Brown back in the 1850s.John Brown has no ideals or .
A century ago the US was dealing with terrorist Marxists. We dealt with them too.

I see this, but as we say "there is a heavy hammer at every complicated lock no matter how exactly it complicated". All of them had has no religious ideals that radical muslims have.
Its own actions put it there. Like it or not, reasonable or not, lawful or not, the world sees this as a huge negative against Israel. Nothing is going to change that.

Getting back to what you quoted, the reason nothing is going to change that is Israel is only directing its propaganda efforts towards people who are already committed to Israel. The only chance of changing the world's perception is to address everyone else.

Yes, i think they do this specially. And provide 'fuel' to antisemitizm too - by themselves. There's a large benefit from being Poor Innocent Victums Of This Harsh World.
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