The Massacre of the Gaza Aid Flotilla

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Matt Giwer
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Message 1020292 - Posted: 28 Jul 2010, 7:40:40 UTC - in response to Message 1020095.  
Last modified: 28 Jul 2010, 7:51:46 UTC



I am saying if both sides do not work towards peace, there will be no peace.
If you make this decision, you guarantee the outcome.

"In 1890, Birnbaum coined the terms “Zionist” and “Zionism,” and, in 1892, “Political Zionism.” In 1893, he published a brochure entitled Die Nationale Wiedergeburt des Juedischen Volkes in seinem Lande als Mittel zur Loesung der Judenfrage (“The National Rebirth of the Jewish People in its Homeland as a Means of Solving the Jewish Question”), in which he expounded ideas similar to those that Herzl was to promote subsequently. "
(questionable source:

HERE{)


I have always preferred the 1918 Berlin Zionist publication, Der Entlosung die Judentenfrage ist Territorialsimus. The Final Solution to the Jewish Question is Territorialism. It better shows the zionist origin of the terms "final solution" and "jewish question."

"The term "Zionism" itself is derived from the word Zion (Hebrew: ציון, Tzi-yon‎), referring to Jerusalem. The first use of the term is attributed to the Austrian Nathan Birnbaum, founder of the first nationalist Jewish students' movement Kadimah, in his journal Selbstemanzipation (Self Emancipation) in 1890.[9]"
)
Wikipedia

If you keep choosing to expand that to include every catholic, protestant, morman, jehovah's witness, and every other religion other than Judaism, then I am saying it is wrong, hate mongering, combative speech. Such as you have obviously been taught.


Such as I have learned from reading Israeli newspapers and US news sources.

I find it difficult to suppress some verbal condescension to find a citation from an anonymous source carried on wikepedia. How do you know I did not put that in as a joke?

No kind of _____pedia is suitable for research beyond high school. That is why universities prohibit their use as references.

This is not one nation raping the other. This is two nations in a drunken bar room brawl that will never stop. And they keep swinging in anger at anyone that tries to break it up. You have chosen to continue. Do not ask sympathy from me. There are friends on both sides, but if either tries to help they are attacked by both fighters. So yes, in that respect they deserve each other.


Jews chose to go to Palestine. Jews chose to start the fight. Of all the countries which made war on Israel Palestinians are not among them. Israel chose to expel them. Those Jews committed the atrocities against the Palestinians.

All the Palestinians want is their private property returned.

If we get israel to pull back, the palestenians lob some rockets in. isreal comes back out. smashes buildings. Obviously both sides like it.


I know the Geneva conventions give the occupied people the absolute right to use deadly force against those occupying them. When it is good judgement or not is a separate question. In attacking their oppressors they are acting lawfully and morally.

Israel is the Jewish state. They have defended their borders, which moved the borders. Is this a problem for Palestine? Of course. And the fighting continues.


I know what is is required to become a Jew and how it differs between men and women. I know of no way for a state to be jewish. Where did they perform the Bris?

In a modern democracy the country is of all the citizens. The US has a greater percentage of Christians than Israel has of Jews.

No country in the world recognizes Israel as a Jewish country. Truman specifically struck the word jewish from his recognition statement. This recent demand to recognized as Jewish is just another invented obstacle to peace. Israel wants land not peace.

The non-Jews in Israel do not have rights equal to those of the Jews. Racism, segregation, apartheid are all in force. Think about Blacks in the 1930s in Selma Alabama. And that is just for the people whom we would call citizens of Israel.

Calling Israel Jewish makes even less sense than calling the US Christian or White yet has a greater claim to both. And it leads to exactly the same kind of discrimination as we had back when this was a White, Christian America.

And it is illegal in Israel for any politician or political party to have equal rights for all citizens of Israel. So there is no worry about an end to the discrimination and segregation is it is a priori criminal.

The funny thing? In the USA about the only group that uses the term "Zionist"


I find it all over Israel. Then there is the American Zionist Organization and the World Zionist Organization and back in the 1930s there was a German Zionist Organization who were great collaborators with the ruling government.

Is the American Nazi party, that has no use for any non-white.


That you are so profoundly ignorant of the usage of the term Zionism and its variants causes me to be extremely skeptical of your intimate knowledge of this so called American Nazi Party of yours. It is clear your intention is to make an association based solely upon your ignorance of Zionism. What you intend to accomplish by it is at the moment unclear.

However no use for non-white is exactly the attitude of Jews about non-Jews in Israel. The majority of Jews in Israel favor simply expelling them so they can have their goyimrein pissant country.

Therefore I will continue to challenge the term "Zionist" to lump Judaism and Christianity together. In fact I am neither, And have little use for Zealots and radicals.


You can continue all you wish but even those anonymous sources did not exclude non-jews from declaring themselves Zionists nor does anything in them limit it to Jews only. You really should look into sources more suited to your education level.

As long as Palestine and Isreal keep pounding on each other.. The pain will continue. You have made your choice. Neither is going away, and neither will stop striking the other. And the blood continues to fly.


End the occupation. Return the property to its owners. Give Palestinians the justice Jews demand from Germany.

If you really wish the USA would get involved.. Well be careful what you wish for. But I still think you are better off letting us beat up each other.


The US has been involved since 11 minutes after Israel declared itself to exist when Truman recognized it. Israel currently benefits from some $3B in direct US charity each year and another estimated $2.5B in indirect and one time charitable actions averaged annually. Israel would have to give up its free health care to make up the difference.

In addition the US extends diplomatic protection to Israel in the international arena and in the UN without which it could not survive.

There is much more.

So I have no idea how you got the idea the US is not involved with that pissant country.

And what do we get for it? The US asked for a temporary freeze on new construction in the occupied territories (an activity which got several people hanged at Nuremberg) Israel's official response was flat out refusal.

And then they run spies and espionage and sell what they can get to the highest bidder like selling what Pollard stole to the Soviet Union.
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Message 1020293 - Posted: 28 Jul 2010, 8:03:19 UTC - in response to Message 1020221.  

Matt,

In your worst of your rants, can you possibly defend this?


Pray tell how does showing racism and bigotry in one country become defense of another?

How does showing rampant bigotry in Israel which describes itself as a modern democracy and the outpost of western ideals in the middle east be compared with a backward country under control of religious extremists?

Is it not proper to expect the behavior of a country to match its claims about itself?

In this case, Iran is living up to its claims about itself.

Either Israel is not living up to the standards it has set for itself or it is making false claims.

From the news I read in Haaretz and the Jerusalem Post it is fact that Israel is making false claims.
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Message 1020298 - Posted: 28 Jul 2010, 9:42:50 UTC - in response to Message 1020085.  

Yet more proof that religious government is a bad idea. But each country figures that out in their own time.


And how many people die in the meantime.....


There are several true things one can say about Iranians. If they want to revolution they know how to do it. The Shah's secret police and military were at least as good if not better than those of the present regime and the Revolutionary Guard. The Shah's men were certainly better at torture as the US trained them.

So if the people want a change of government they can in fact change it.

Problem is as Jefferson put it, governments should not be overthrown for light and transient causes. Fact it civil wars are the most bloody. The American Civil War had the greatest number of deaths and casualties of any war including WWII. If a government is to be overthrown by force then one has to be prepared for a number of deaths greatly in excess of these semi-annual events in Iran.

On one hand it does not play to the choir to be talking about death for a woman on a charge of adultery. And of course I agree it makes for very bad press. But regardless of the reason and the method, dead is dead.

Dead is dead be it by stoning, hanging, lethal injection, gas chamber, electric chair or firing squad. There are a very few countries in the world which still have the death penalty. Were the statistics available I would expect the executions in Texas alone to be more than in Iran. Neither Iran nor Texas allows cases to be reopened based upon DNA evidence.

I am not on a soap box here. I frankly have no problem with the death penalty per se which does not mean I like to see it used so liberally. But a pun comes to mind with this case in Iran.

Let he who is without sin etc.
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Message 1020306 - Posted: 28 Jul 2010, 10:22:44 UTC - in response to Message 1020290.  
Last modified: 28 Jul 2010, 10:24:41 UTC

It is a blockade. It is war. It is what you wanted. Do not worry, it will get worse again.


It is not a war until a war is declared. No naval blockade is lawful without a declaration of war.

However it must always be remembered this is not a weapons blockade. It is blockade of the necessities of life. It is more properly referred to as a starvation blockade. That is a war crime.
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Message 1020317 - Posted: 28 Jul 2010, 11:07:24 UTC - in response to Message 1020177.  

i find it funny that usa is eager to meddle everywhere in middle east but in israel and saudi-arabia.


It has been known for years that the IRS allows deductions for charitable purposes even when the money goes to criminal settlement activities. About a year ago Haaretz ran another expose of it and the IRS stills pleads an inability to stop this tax fraud.

As for Saudi, back in the 30s FDR made an agreement with the new, and also first, government of Arabia Deserta to keep it in power in exchange for oil. Quid pro quo. Countries do not have friends they have interests.
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Message 1020323 - Posted: 28 Jul 2010, 11:31:16 UTC - in response to Message 1020293.  

Matt,

In your worst of your rants, can you possibly defend this?


In this case, Iran is living up to its claims about itself.


OK, so you are depraved enough to endorse the arbitrary stoning to death of women, mothers, and their unborn children.


You have no basis to argue anything.

Martin.




See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
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Message 1020342 - Posted: 28 Jul 2010, 12:01:44 UTC - in response to Message 1020292.  




++++++++++

What you prefer, is to hate. That has become obvious. And you wish to drag as many as possible into the conflict, by weaving words to suit you.



The source of the word "Zion"/ism/ist is fairly obvius to mean Jeruselum, and Judaism. You prefering it and fueling it by others that also wish to abuse the word for political means is really quite disgusting. Your sources are either non-existant or suspect, the sources I sited... well please feel free to find better ones. I am not politician and will not argue symantics endlessly with you. Zionism may = Judaism, But in no way shape or form involves the entire x-tian populations. Only your hatred does.

"I find it difficult to suppress some verbal condescension to find a citation from an anonymous source carried on wikepedia. How do you know I did not put that in as a joke?
"
Only one source was from wikipedia. Please feel free to quote a reliable NEUTRAL source. I am listening. Verbal condescension should ALWAYS be surpressed for intelligent discourse. Otherwise it is called "picking a fight"

"Jews chose to go to Palestine. Jews chose to start the fight. Of all the countries which made war on Israel Palestinians are not among them. Israel chose to expel them. Those Jews committed the atrocities against the Palestinians.
"

They chose to move to a place permitted under international law that they could live and NOT be slaughtered. The problem is these were tribes that were at one time nomadic. They moved around, the lands crossed. They fought, they lived and died on the same lands. Where Israel was created was once the Ottoman empire. There was no Palestine on the map.

Whether you call it a war or not, people die the same. Such as the vietnam conflict. Call it what you want, but ask those on the ground, and it was definately a war. Isreal is occupying, and if pushed further has it within their power to say "there is no Palestine". And could make valid arguments they are doing it for their own "defense". And they could proclaim it is all part of isreal now, and under their jurisdiction and theirs alone. This would be unpopular politically, but it is not beyond the realm of possibilities.

A blockade is an act of war. And it is up to who is maintaining the blockade what may or may not pass. Anyone violating that blockade is part of the conflict. the USA and Cuba had a similar situation.. And when the russian ships arrived things got a bit tense.

"I know the Geneva conventions give the occupied people the absolute right to use deadly force against those occupying them. When it is good judgement or not is a separate question. In attacking their oppressors they are acting lawfully and morally.
"
Yep. And Isreal has a right to maintain security. Using deadly force as needed. And the battle rages on. Like I said.. they must really like it.

After the American Civil War, former slaves were promised 40 acres and a mule.
They are still waiting. But we are not killing each other over it.

The land lost in conflicts.. are gone. They could negotiate and get some back.
Or continue to fight and lose the rest. Or continue to try to drag others into their sandbox mentallity WAR.

If you do not consider Isreal a Jewish state, I can respect that opinion. I suppose Iran is not a Muslim state by the same standards.

"Therefore I will continue to challenge the term "Zionist" to lump Judaism and Christianity together. In fact I am neither, And have little use for Zealots and radicals.


You can continue all you wish but even those anonymous sources did not exclude non-jews from declaring themselves Zionists nor does anything in them limit it to Jews only. You really should look into sources more suited to your education level. "

I expected nothing better. I will continue to challenge this combative, hateful, and WRONG form of speech. Your experiences have obviously been limited, and your reading very selective.

You are thriving on the conflict you complain about. You are just dissatisfied with its current results. But you made your bed, you Lay in it.

Isreal is internationally recognized as a country. It is not going away, nor pulling back from the Banks of the Jordan. That Palestine was once larger, is notable. Just keep in mind, it can get much smaller too. If you do not SEEK peace, then blame yourself.
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Message 1020345 - Posted: 28 Jul 2010, 12:03:41 UTC - in response to Message 1020306.  

It is a blockade. It is war. It is what you wanted. Do not worry, it will get worse again.


It is not a war until a war is declared. No naval blockade is lawful without a declaration of war.

However it must always be remembered this is not a weapons blockade. It is blockade of the necessities of life. It is more properly referred to as a starvation blockade. That is a war crime.


A weapons blockade still requires inspection of any vessel entering those waters. Attempting to bypass those inspections joins the conflict, and is grounds for destruction.
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Message 1020346 - Posted: 28 Jul 2010, 12:04:59 UTC - in response to Message 1020317.  

i find it funny that usa is eager to meddle everywhere in middle east but in israel and saudi-arabia.


It has been known for years that the IRS allows deductions for charitable purposes even when the money goes to criminal settlement activities. About a year ago Haaretz ran another expose of it and the IRS stills pleads an inability to stop this tax fraud.

As for Saudi, back in the 30s FDR made an agreement with the new, and also first, government of Arabia Deserta to keep it in power in exchange for oil. Quid pro quo. Countries do not have friends they have interests.


I apologize, but I do not see how the internal tax laws are even significant
in the discussion. Attack and Distract tactics? or Just ADD?
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Message 1020352 - Posted: 28 Jul 2010, 12:16:12 UTC - in response to Message 1020293.  

Matt,

In your worst of your rants, can you possibly defend this?


Pray tell how does showing racism and bigotry in one country become defense of another?

How does showing rampant bigotry in Israel which describes itself as a modern democracy and the outpost of western ideals in the middle east be compared with a backward country under control of religious extremists?

Is it not proper to expect the behavior of a country to match its claims about itself?

In this case, Iran is living up to its claims about itself.

Either Israel is not living up to the standards it has set for itself or it is making false claims.

From the news I read in Haaretz and the Jerusalem Post it is fact that Israel is making false claims.


Lovely side step from a direct question.
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Message 1020426 - Posted: 28 Jul 2010, 18:57:32 UTC

Again point goes to Soft.....well offered questions and he just can't offer a viable answer that gives a direct response.


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Message 1020518 - Posted: 29 Jul 2010, 3:57:15 UTC - in response to Message 1020323.  

Matt,

In your worst of your rants, can you possibly defend this?


In this case, Iran is living up to its claims about itself.


OK, so you are depraved enough to endorse the arbitrary stoning to death of women, mothers, and their unborn children.

You have no basis to argue anything.

Martin.


To repeat:

Pray tell how does showing racism and bigotry in one country become defense of another?

If your ability to discuss a subject is solely limited to misrepresenting what has been said then in fact you do not have the ability to conduct a rational discussion.
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Message 1020519 - Posted: 29 Jul 2010, 3:59:17 UTC - in response to Message 1020352.  

Matt,

In your worst of your rants, can you possibly defend this?


Pray tell how does showing racism and bigotry in one country become defense of another?

How does showing rampant bigotry in Israel which describes itself as a modern democracy and the outpost of western ideals in the middle east be compared with a backward country under control of religious extremists?

Is it not proper to expect the behavior of a country to match its claims about itself?

In this case, Iran is living up to its claims about itself.

Either Israel is not living up to the standards it has set for itself or it is making false claims.

From the news I read in Haaretz and the Jerusalem Post it is fact that Israel is making false claims.


Lovely side step from a direct question.


It is elementary to public debate that one does not let the opposition reformulate the premise of the debate in their favor.

Are you new at this?
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Message 1020522 - Posted: 29 Jul 2010, 4:03:28 UTC - in response to Message 1020342.  




Message 1020292 - Posted 28 Jul 2010 7:40:40 UTC - in response to Message 1020095.


Last modified: 28 Jul 2010 7:51:46 UTC



I am saying if both sides do not work towards peace, there will be no peace.
If you make this decision, you guarantee the outcome.

"In 1890, Birnbaum coined the terms “Zionist” and “Zionism,” and, in 1892, “Political Zionism.” In 1893, he published a brochure entitled Die Nationale Wiedergeburt des Juedischen Volkes in seinem Lande als Mittel zur Loesung der Judenfrage (“The National Rebirth of the Jewish People in its Homeland as a Means of Solving the Jewish Question”), in which he expounded ideas similar to those that Herzl was to promote subsequently. "
(questionable source:

HERE{)



I have always preferred the 1918 Berlin Zionist publication, Der Entlosung die Judentenfrage ist Territorialsimus. The Final Solution to the Jewish Question is Territorialism. It better shows the zionist origin of the terms "final solution" and "jewish question."

"The term "Zionism" itself is derived from the word Zion (Hebrew: ציון, Tzi-yon‎), referring to Jerusalem. The first use of the term is attributed to the Austrian Nathan Birnbaum, founder of the first nationalist Jewish students' movement Kadimah, in his journal Selbstemanzipation (Self Emancipation) in 1890.[9]"
)
Wikipedia

If you keep choosing to expand that to include every catholic, protestant, morman, jehovah's witness, and every other religion other than Judaism, then I am saying it is wrong, hate mongering, combative speech. Such as you have obviously been taught.



Such as I have learned from reading Israeli newspapers and US news sources.

I find it difficult to suppress some verbal condescension to find a citation from an anonymous source carried on wikepedia. How do you know I did not put that in as a joke?

No kind of _____pedia is suitable for research beyond high school. That is why universities prohibit their use as references.

This is not one nation raping the other. This is two nations in a drunken bar room brawl that will never stop. And they keep swinging in anger at anyone that tries to break it up. You have chosen to continue. Do not ask sympathy from me. There are friends on both sides, but if either tries to help they are attacked by both fighters. So yes, in that respect they deserve each other.



Jews chose to go to Palestine. Jews chose to start the fight. Of all the countries which made war on Israel Palestinians are not among them. Israel chose to expel them. Those Jews committed the atrocities against the Palestinians.

All the Palestinians want is their private property returned.

If we get israel to pull back, the palestenians lob some rockets in. isreal comes back out. smashes buildings. Obviously both sides like it.



I know the Geneva conventions give the occupied people the absolute right to use deadly force against those occupying them. When it is good judgement or not is a separate question. In attacking their oppressors they are acting lawfully and morally.

Israel is the Jewish state. They have defended their borders, which moved the borders. Is this a problem for Palestine? Of course. And the fighting continues.



I know what is is required to become a Jew and how it differs between men and women. I know of no way for a state to be jewish. Where did they perform the Bris?

In a modern democracy the country is of all the citizens. The US has a greater percentage of Christians than Israel has of Jews.

No country in the world recognizes Israel as a Jewish country. Truman specifically struck the word jewish from his recognition statement. This recent demand to recognized as Jewish is just another invented obstacle to peace. Israel wants land not peace.

The non-Jews in Israel do not have rights equal to those of the Jews. Racism, segregation, apartheid are all in force. Think about Blacks in the 1930s in Selma Alabama. And that is just for the people whom we would call citizens of Israel.

Calling Israel Jewish makes even less sense than calling the US Christian or White yet has a greater claim to both. And it leads to exactly the same kind of discrimination as we had back when this was a White, Christian America.

And it is illegal in Israel for any politician or political party to have equal rights for all citizens of Israel. So there is no worry about an end to the discrimination and segregation is it is a priori criminal.

The funny thing? In the USA about the only group that uses the term "Zionist"



I find it all over Israel. Then there is the American Zionist Organization and the World Zionist Organization and back in the 1930s there was a German Zionist Organization who were great collaborators with the ruling government.

Is the American Nazi party, that has no use for any non-white.



That you are so profoundly ignorant of the usage of the term Zionism and its variants causes me to be extremely skeptical of your intimate knowledge of this so called American Nazi Party of yours. It is clear your intention is to make an association based solely upon your ignorance of Zionism. What you intend to accomplish by it is at the moment unclear.

However no use for non-white is exactly the attitude of Jews about non-Jews in Israel. The majority of Jews in Israel favor simply expelling them so they can have their goyimrein pissant country.

Therefore I will continue to challenge the term "Zionist" to lump Judaism and Christianity together. In fact I am neither, And have little use for Zealots and radicals.



You can continue all you wish but even those anonymous sources did not exclude non-jews from declaring themselves Zionists nor does anything in them limit it to Jews only. You really should look into sources more suited to your education level.

As long as Palestine and Isreal keep pounding on each other.. The pain will continue. You have made your choice. Neither is going away, and neither will stop striking the other. And the blood continues to fly.



End the occupation. Return the property to its owners. Give Palestinians the justice Jews demand from Germany.

If you really wish the USA would get involved.. Well be careful what you wish for. But I still think you are better off letting us beat up each other.



The US has been involved since 11 minutes after Israel declared itself to exist when Truman recognized it. Israel currently benefits from some $3B in direct US charity each year and another estimated $2.5B in indirect and one time charitable actions averaged annually. Israel would have to give up its free health care to make up the difference.

In addition the US extends diplomatic protection to Israel in the international arena and in the UN without which it could not survive.

There is much more.

So I have no idea how you got the idea the US is not involved with that pissant country.

And what do we get for it? The US asked for a temporary freeze on new construction in the occupied territories (an activity which got several people hanged at Nuremberg) Israel's official response was flat out refusal.

And then they run spies and espionage and sell what they can get to the highest bidder like selling what Pollard stole to the Soviet Union.


++++++++++

What you prefer, is to hate. That has become obvious. And you wish to drag as many as possible into the conflict, by weaving words to suit you.


I give you another chance to in fact address what I did post.[/quote]

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Message 1020526 - Posted: 29 Jul 2010, 4:16:29 UTC - in response to Message 1020522.  

I did in fact address what you posted. The multiple quote/end quote makes a mess when approached on the second time around. So.. pick a section, I will attempt to address it again. Though of course it would not be in a manner you would agree with. You have your opinions, and have no wish to listen to others.

If I missed something.. please.. post just that section and I will address it. Or others will. As it becomes the Braying of a Donkey after a while.
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Message 1020529 - Posted: 29 Jul 2010, 4:27:31 UTC - in response to Message 1020519.  

Matt,

In your worst of your rants, can you possibly defend this?


Pray tell how does showing racism and bigotry in one country become defense of another?

How does showing rampant bigotry in Israel which describes itself as a modern democracy and the outpost of western ideals in the middle east be compared with a backward country under control of religious extremists?

Is it not proper to expect the behavior of a country to match its claims about itself?

In this case, Iran is living up to its claims about itself.

Either Israel is not living up to the standards it has set for itself or it is making false claims.

From the news I read in Haaretz and the Jerusalem Post it is fact that Israel is making false claims.


Lovely side step from a direct question.


It is elementary to public debate that one does not let the opposition reformulate the premise of the debate in their favor.

Are you new at this?

Not at all. And for a political debate, you are quite correct. Being "perceived" to win is the entire value, not being correct, not being the most intelligent, not in being honest.

However if you wish to convince people of things and you do not own the media, you need to be rational, intelligent, back up your claims, and If you wish to be listened to you will need to listen to others. The last portion, you are unwilling or unable to do.

The premise was simple to your proclimation against hebrew law, and for muslim shariah law. Claiming the latter is superior to the former. Stoning of women
for adultery to western civilization went at the window at around 29 AD. "Let he who is without sin" etc. Even without mercy you would need to stone BOTH parties to be "Just". Barbaric, but "Just".

Which furthers my point, no government should belong to any religion. History is filled with the genocides that follow when that does happen. Jews and Muslims and Pagans alike were slaughtered during the inquisitions. It is long past time to move beyond that.

Side steps occur when the facts are inconvenient and you do not wish to face them. And I do understand why. A fragile belief system is a dangerous thing to mess with. Many lives have been lost from the rage that inevitably follows.
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Message 1020531 - Posted: 29 Jul 2010, 4:29:28 UTC - in response to Message 1020426.  

Again point goes to Soft.....well offered questions and he just can't offer a viable answer that gives a direct response.


The present situation in Palestine is the direct consequence of Jews going there and expelling the native population. It is presently the best it can be as a consequence of the actions of Jews.

Jews continue to CHOOSE of their own free will to live there under the present conditions so those conditions can't be all that bad.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.

That is all there is to it.
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Message 1020532 - Posted: 29 Jul 2010, 4:29:38 UTC - in response to Message 1020345.  

It is a blockade. It is war. It is what you wanted. Do not worry, it will get worse again.


It is not a war until a war is declared. No naval blockade is lawful without a declaration of war.

However it must always be remembered this is not a weapons blockade. It is blockade of the necessities of life. It is more properly referred to as a starvation blockade. That is a war crime.


A weapons blockade still requires inspection of any vessel entering those waters. Attempting to bypass those inspections joins the conflict, and is grounds for destruction.


It remains a starvation blockade which is a war crime.

Any blockade of any kind is criminal without a declaration of war.

There is no declaration of war. No military exclusion zone can be declared absent a declaration of war. Therefore the attack on the peace flotilla was an act of piracy. Piracy is a hanging offense. All countries may apprehend and hang pirates. That is the way it is.

Add to that Israel knew there were no weapons on the ships. They were loaded in broad daylight with press coverage invited in countries where arms are not available to civilians. Israel knows what is going on under the strictest military secrecy hundreds of feet underground in Iran.

No rational person can believe Israel did not know there were no weapons on those ships.

Besides, the cargo was inspected in Cyprus.

The claim of weapons is for no other purpose than to divert public attention from the starvation blockade and the group punishment of the children of Gaza.
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Message 1020536 - Posted: 29 Jul 2010, 4:34:59 UTC

Matt.. please do yourself a favor. Find a news source with a BIT of neutrality?

Pick one. A reliable news source, not an underground rag with obvious slants that you take as FACT when it is clearly opinion to anyone with a hint of an open mind.


Janice
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Message 1020537 - Posted: 29 Jul 2010, 4:39:42 UTC - in response to Message 1020531.  

Again point goes to Soft.....well offered questions and he just can't offer a viable answer that gives a direct response.


The present situation in Palestine is the direct consequence of Jews going there and expelling the native population. It is presently the best it can be as a consequence of the actions of Jews.

Jews continue to CHOOSE of their own free will to live there under the present conditions so those conditions can't be all that bad.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.

That is all there is to it.


It is their land now. Deal with it. If you lose a confrontation (any other term for WAR) you do not make the terms of surrender, and in fact there has been no terms of surrender. There has been no surrender. Hence the hostilities continue.

When The Soviet union invaded czechoslovakia, it became part of the soviet union. Until the soviet union fell. Such is the fact of losing. You do not make the conditions.
Janice
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Message boards : Politics : The Massacre of the Gaza Aid Flotilla


 
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