The Massacre of the Gaza Aid Flotilla

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Message 1020539 - Posted: 29 Jul 2010, 4:44:40 UTC - in response to Message 1020532.  

It is a blockade. It is war. It is what you wanted. Do not worry, it will get worse again.


It is not a war until a war is declared. No naval blockade is lawful without a declaration of war.

However it must always be remembered this is not a weapons blockade. It is blockade of the necessities of life. It is more properly referred to as a starvation blockade. That is a war crime.


A weapons blockade still requires inspection of any vessel entering those waters. Attempting to bypass those inspections joins the conflict, and is grounds for destruction.


It remains a starvation blockade which is a war crime.

Any blockade of any kind is criminal without a declaration of war.

There is no declaration of war. No military exclusion zone can be declared absent a declaration of war. Therefore the attack on the peace flotilla was an act of piracy. Piracy is a hanging offense. All countries may apprehend and hang pirates. That is the way it is.

Add to that Israel knew there were no weapons on the ships. They were loaded in broad daylight with press coverage invited in countries where arms are not available to civilians. Israel knows what is going on under the strictest military secrecy hundreds of feet underground in Iran.

No rational person can believe Israel did not know there were no weapons on those ships.

Besides, the cargo was inspected in Cyprus.

The claim of weapons is for no other purpose than to divert public attention from the starvation blockade and the group punishment of the children of Gaza.


Wars can exist whether declared or not. I repeat (ad nauseum) A blockade is an act of war. The conditions of the blockade are not a matter of international law. Any vessel entering is subject to search BY THEM. So if they chose to enter, they should be prepared to be boarded.

And the bar room brawl continues. Seek peace dude.. it is only then that anyone in that region will prosper. Come to terms with what is. Not with what was.
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Message 1020558 - Posted: 29 Jul 2010, 6:25:47 UTC - in response to Message 1020342.  




++++++++++

What you prefer, is to hate.


The truth cannot be hate.

That has become obvious. And you wish to drag as many as possible into the conflict, by weaving words to suit you.


Rather I simply do not use the pro-murder and pro-theft terms of the perps.

The source of the word "Zion"/ism/ist is fairly obvius to mean Jeruselum, and Judaism. You prefering it and fueling it by others that also wish to abuse the word for political means is really quite disgusting. Your sources are either non-existant or suspect, the sources I sited... well please feel free to find better ones.


You have chosen to engage in public debate. It is not my responsibility to educate you. At times I assume those who engage in public debate are knowledgeable of their subject else they would not join in. Then I simply post the facts and ask why they are lying? I did not assume you knew what you were talking about.

I am not politician and will not argue symantics endlessly with you. Zionism may = Judaism, But in no way shape or form involves the entire x-tian populations. Only your hatred does.


I originally posted the self declaration as such by Christians. I then posted a quote by Falwell giving a bit more detail. YOU are the only person who has ever said I referred to all Christians or even a majority of them. In fact Christian churches in bibleland are quite uniformly anti-zionist and rightfully address the ignorance of zionism by Christians who claim to be zionists.

"I find it difficult to suppress some verbal condescension to find a citation from an anonymous source carried on wikepedia. How do you know I did not put that in as a joke?
"
Only one source was from wikipedia. Please feel free to quote a reliable NEUTRAL source. I am listening. Verbal condescension should ALWAYS be surpressed for intelligent discourse. Otherwise it is called "picking a fight"


I will not rise to the bait.

"Jews chose to go to Palestine. Jews chose to start the fight. Of all the countries which made war on Israel Palestinians are not among them. Israel chose to expel them. Those Jews committed the atrocities against the Palestinians."

They chose to move to a place permitted under international law that they could live and NOT be slaughtered.


They started going to Palestine in the 1890s. They formulated the kill or expel policy in the early 1920s, see Z'ev Jabotinsky's The Iron Wall. He was a decorated British officer during WWI. The major illegal immigrations to Palestine were in the 1930s and most of those from Germany under the Ha'Avara Agreement the Nazi government and the German Zionist Bund. You may wish to consult a history book to learn the rest of the dates of the this "slaughter." Also making that connection is an insult to Zionists and denied by Israel as having had anything to do with the founding of Israel. They know the related dates of historical events even if you do not.

As for international law, that had nothing to do with it. Palestine was a League of Nations protectorate mandated to British administration. Most of the Jews who showed up there did so illegally. The Brits were no better at sealing the border of Palestine, which was quite prominent on their maps, than the US does with the Mexican border.

This is in all the history books.

The problem is these were tribes that were at one time nomadic. They moved around, the lands crossed. They fought, they lived and died on the same lands. Where Israel was created was once the Ottoman empire. There was no Palestine on the map.


Palestine which has existed for at least 2500 years and is mentioned seven times by Herodotus and was reconstituted by the Romans in the early 2nd c. AD had, according to a speech by Benjamin Disraeli a population of 3/4 of a million people in the late 19th c. Yes, I have heard the BS about nomads from the poorly educated Zionists but it is not my responsibility to educate them. Stupid people insist upon saying and even believing stupid things. The facts are quite different.

Whether you call it a war or not, people die the same. Such as the vietnam conflict. Call it what you want, but ask those on the ground, and it was definately a war.


And it is a war deliberately started by Jews. They introduced terrorism to the middle east. They terror bombed the King David Hotel. When the Brits arrested Zionists they would bomb markets and bazaars to as to kill as many women and children as possible -- it was called the "price tag" policy which they still use today in the occupied territories. In fact Palestinians have yet to sink as low as the Zionists. They have never done anything parallel to kidnapping and hanging IDF members but the Jews did that to British soldiers.

This is in all the history books. It is not a secret. If you wish to discuss the subject in public debate then you should in fact learn the material.

Isreal is occupying, and if pushed further has it within their power to say "there is no Palestine".


And if you are going to debate this subject in public you should not mix up your zionist propaganda stories. Above you recite there was no Palestine nonsense and now you talking about their present power. Of course real history, the kind in real history books says Israel wiped Palestine off the map in 1948. No one has missed it which is why I conclude if Israel is wiped off the map no one will miss it either.

And could make valid arguments they are doing it for their own "defense".


That argument can be made but in law when deaths occur in the commission of a crime it is called felony murder. A thief may argument he was defending his right to keep what he stole but no rational person would accept such an argument.

And they could proclaim it is all part of isreal now,


Which is what Germany did in 1940 when it annexed western Poland. In 1947 many were hanged for that at Nuremberg. Annexation by military conquest is in fact a war crime.

Which is why I point out there are so many Jews facing execution for the criminal annexation of East Jerusalem and the Syrian Heights.

German might does not make right but Jewish might is identical to right.

and under their jurisdiction and theirs alone. This would be unpopular politically, but it is not beyond the realm of possibilities.


The idea is a very popular one in Israel with a solid majority in favor of it. However they keep pointing out they have not found a way to get rid of the Palestinians. Were it to happen to Jews the whining would never end -- they still eat Hamen's ears at Purim.

A blockade is an act of war. And it is up to who is maintaining the blockade what may or may not pass. Anyone violating that blockade is part of the conflict. the USA and Cuba had a similar situation.. And when the russian ships arrived things got a bit tense.


But as there was not a state of war no Russian ships were stopped, boarded or towed to Miami. If you wish to make an argument by analogy you should in fact learn about what you wish to use an an analogy.

"I know the Geneva conventions give the occupied people the absolute right to use deadly force against those occupying them. When it is good judgement or not is a separate question. In attacking their oppressors they are acting lawfully and morally. "

Yep. And Isreal has a right to maintain security. Using deadly force as needed. And the battle rages on. Like I said.. they must really like it.


What does a starvation blockade have to do with security? Israel knew there were no weapons on the ships. What does targeting children for collective punishment have to do with security? What does collective punishment of anyone have to do with security?

After the American Civil War, former slaves were promised 40 acres and a mule.
They are still waiting. But we are not killing each other over it.


What might be the connection? But there is a better comparison. The property of Jews was confiscated by Nazi Germany and by Poland after the war. Jews have demanded and have received compensation. They are not waiting, they are getting.

Why do not Palestinians have the same right to the same justice that Jews claim for themselves?

The land lost in conflicts.. are gone. They could negotiate and get some back.


Conflicts are over sovereignty not ownership. You should learn the difference between the two. They have a right to all of their property. Jews can provide the sovereign civil government for the land as long as all are citizens and all can participate in the government. That is why expulsion was required to have an Israel.

Thieves do not have the right to negotiate what they will return.

Or continue to fight and lose the rest. Or continue to try to drag others into their sandbox mentallity WAR.


The acquisition of territory the conquest remains a hanging offense under international law. Those who would do it are war criminals of the same order as Hitler and Goering and Himmler. I note the attitude of jewish Israelis is that they are above the law even after they agree to the law.

If you do not consider Isreal a Jewish state, I can respect that opinion. I suppose Iran is not a Muslim state by the same standards.


Why would I care? I merely pointed out the US has a greater reason to call itself Christian than Israel to call itself Jewish. I also pointed out Jewish Israelis have superior rights to non-Jewish Israelis and that politically advocating equal rights is a crime in Israel.

Obviously Israel is nothing like a western democracy and gives the entire idea of democracy a bad name.

"Therefore I will continue to challenge the term "Zionist" to lump Judaism and Christianity together. In fact I am neither, And have little use for Zealots and radicals.

You can continue all you wish but even those anonymous sources did not exclude non-jews from declaring themselves Zionists nor does anything in them limit it to Jews only. You really should look into sources more suited to your education level. "

I expected nothing better. I will continue to challenge this combative, hateful, and WRONG form of speech. Your experiences have obviously been limited, and your reading very selective.


I merely point out you know next to nothing about the subject yet choose to engage in public discussion as though you do. That the facts contradict your statements is obvious by inspection. I am not responsible for the education of zionists but I have no problem exposing their whatever, either ignorance or lies such as the Bedouin nonsense you tried to pass off as fact.

You are thriving on the conflict you complain about. You are just dissatisfied with its current results. But you made your bed, you Lay in it.


The only dog I have in their fight is tax dollars and the reputation of the US and the oil needs of the US and in fact the world. Thus I see it as a good thing to bring peace to a part of the middle east. Peace can only come with justice to the victims of Zionism.

Remember Obama simply asked that Israel cease committing the war crime of settling its population in areas under military occupation and Israel refused bluntly despite the billions of dollars in charity each year that has been going on for decades. And this is another example of your ignorance when you kept posting about the US becoming involved and obviously being unaware off all this charity to the ungrateful zionists.

Antizionism is a moral imperative.

Isreal is internationally recognized as a country.


It is the least recognized country in the world with some fifty countries refusing to acknowledge its existence mainly for the criminal nature of its government.

It is not going away, nor pulling back from the Banks of the Jordan.


Then it is only reasonable to build some gallows in preparation for the day when justice will prevail.

Apartheid South Africa was equally confident it would last forever. It just takes time. The number and extent of boycotts are increasing every year. It is just a matter of time until enough voters favor the idea that they elect governments which will make it official.

That Palestine was once larger, is notable. Just keep in mind, it can get much smaller too. If you do not SEEK peace, then blame yourself.


Remember to keep your hasbara stories straight. Don't in one place say it was not a map and then post like it was. One propaganda line at a time. You won't confuse yourself so much if you keep them separate.

If Israel really wanted peace it would do what it required for peace, compensate its victims instead of creating more victims every day. It could stop committing crimes against Palestinians instead of continuing to commit them.

All you are suggesting is the rapee stop resisting the rapist who has all the power and the ruthlessness to make victims of children to get what it wants.

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Message 1020561 - Posted: 29 Jul 2010, 6:33:46 UTC - in response to Message 1020539.  

It is a blockade. It is war. It is what you wanted. Do not worry, it will get worse again.


It is not a war until a war is declared. No naval blockade is lawful without a declaration of war.

However it must always be remembered this is not a weapons blockade. It is blockade of the necessities of life. It is more properly referred to as a starvation blockade. That is a war crime.


A weapons blockade still requires inspection of any vessel entering those waters. Attempting to bypass those inspections joins the conflict, and is grounds for destruction.


It remains a starvation blockade which is a war crime.

Any blockade of any kind is criminal without a declaration of war.

There is no declaration of war. No military exclusion zone can be declared absent a declaration of war. Therefore the attack on the peace flotilla was an act of piracy. Piracy is a hanging offense. All countries may apprehend and hang pirates. That is the way it is.

Add to that Israel knew there were no weapons on the ships. They were loaded in broad daylight with press coverage invited in countries where arms are not available to civilians. Israel knows what is going on under the strictest military secrecy hundreds of feet underground in Iran.

No rational person can believe Israel did not know there were no weapons on those ships.

Besides, the cargo was inspected in Cyprus.

The claim of weapons is for no other purpose than to divert public attention from the starvation blockade and the group punishment of the children of Gaza.


Wars can exist whether declared or not. I repeat (ad nauseum) A blockade is an act of war. The conditions of the blockade are not a matter of international law. Any vessel entering is subject to search BY THEM. So if they chose to enter, they should be prepared to be boarded.


I have not disagreed with you. I did day that a blockade is not lawful without a declaration of war. Only when a blockade is lawful are non-combatants required to respect the blockade. Thus the declaring country has no right to board any ship from any other country without it being a lawful blockade. Why can you not grasp the difference?

Let me try to make it real simple for you. The German blockades of Britain during both world wars were lawful. Israel is doing the same thing but not in a lawful manner. Israel should learn to be at least as lawful in war as was Germany in two wars.

And the bar room brawl continues. Seek peace dude.. it is only then that anyone in that region will prosper. Come to terms with what is. Not with what was.


Why not simple end the occupation and stop provoking fight?

The rapee is not provoking the rapist.

Why does Israel continue to provoke the fighting?

Do you have an explanation for Israel's on-going criminal actions against the Palestinians?

Do you think the Palestinians invited the foreigners to come and rape them?
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Message 1020563 - Posted: 29 Jul 2010, 6:37:55 UTC - in response to Message 1020537.  

Again point goes to Soft.....well offered questions and he just can't offer a viable answer that gives a direct response.


The present situation in Palestine is the direct consequence of Jews going there and expelling the native population. It is presently the best it can be as a consequence of the actions of Jews.

Jews continue to CHOOSE of their own free will to live there under the present conditions so those conditions can't be all that bad.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.

That is all there is to it.


It is their land now. Deal with it. If you lose a confrontation (any other term for WAR) you do not make the terms of surrender, and in fact there has been no terms of surrender. There has been no surrender. Hence the hostilities continue.


I suggested you learn the difference between sovereignty and ownership. You continue to post as though you do not know the difference. Is this deliberate on you part?

When The Soviet union invaded czechoslovakia, it became part of the soviet union.


That is total bullshit. You have no idea what was meant by the Soviet Union. Or is this deliberate too?

Until the soviet union fell. Such is the fact of losing. You do not make the conditions.


Why do you continue to post things which are clearly false? Is there a point to it? When does the criminal occupation end? When do Jews stop provoking the Palestinians by committing crimes against them?

You have to know of their crimes to pretend to discuss them.
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Message 1020564 - Posted: 29 Jul 2010, 6:44:17 UTC - in response to Message 1020536.  

Matt.. please do yourself a favor. Find a news source with a BIT of neutrality?

Pick one. A reliable news source, not an underground rag with obvious slants that you take as FACT when it is clearly opinion to anyone with a hint of an open mind.


I prefer strongly biased sources like Haaretz and the Jerusalem Post.

The Jewish news sources in Israel publish what is really going on and what Israel is really doing.

Even with all their bias they damn Israel. They apparently do not realize only zionists approve of what Israel is doing to their victims. That is why US papers rarely post raw news from Israeli sources. Those two news sources even clean up their English language versions to remove the most damning material.

www.haaretz.com and www.jpost.com Should you try reading them you will realize what a depraved government you are attempting to defend.
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Message 1020587 - Posted: 29 Jul 2010, 13:09:38 UTC - in response to Message 1020558.  




++++++++++

1s What you prefer, is to hate.


1m The truth cannot be hate.



2s That has become obvious. And you wish to drag as many as possible into the conflict, by weaving words to suit you.


2m Rather I simply do not use the pro-murder and pro-theft terms of the perps.



3s The source of the word "Zion"/ism/ist is fairly obvius to mean Jeruselum, and Judaism. You prefering it and fueling it by others that also wish to abuse the word for political means is really quite disgusting. Your sources are either non-existant or suspect, the sources I sited... well please feel free to find better ones.


3m You have chosen to engage in public debate. It is not my responsibility to educate you. At times I assume those who engage in public debate are knowledgeable of their subject else they would not join in. Then I simply post the facts and ask why they are lying? I did not assume you knew what you were talking about.



4s I am not politician and will not argue symantics endlessly with you. Zionism may = Judaism, But in no way shape or form involves the entire x-tian populations. Only your hatred does.


4m I originally posted the self declaration as such by Christians. I then posted a quote by Falwell giving a bit more detail. YOU are the only person who has ever said I referred to all Christians or even a majority of them. In fact Christian churches in bibleland are quite uniformly anti-zionist and rightfully address the ignorance of zionism by Christians who claim to be zionists.




5m "I find it difficult to suppress some verbal condescension to find a citation from an anonymous source carried on wikepedia. How do you know I did not put that in as a joke?
"
5s Only one source was from wikipedia. Please feel free to quote a reliable NEUTRAL source. I am listening.
Verbal condescension should ALWAYS be surpressed for intelligent discourse. Otherwise it is called "picking a fight"


5mI will not rise to the bait.


6m "Jews chose to go to Palestine. Jews chose to start the fight. Of all the countries which made war on Israel Palestinians are not among them. Israel chose to expel them. Those Jews committed the atrocities against the Palestinians."

6s They chose to move to a place permitted under international law that they could live and NOT be slaughtered.


6m They started going to Palestine in the 1890s. They formulated the kill or expel policy in the early 1920s, see Z'ev Jabotinsky's The Iron Wall. He was a decorated British officer during WWI. The major illegal immigrations to Palestine were in the 1930s and most of those from Germany under the Ha'Avara Agreement the Nazi government and the German Zionist Bund. You may wish to consult a history book to learn the rest of the dates of the this "slaughter." Also making that connection is an insult to Zionists and denied by Israel as having had anything to do with the founding of Israel. They know the related dates of historical events even if you do not.

As for international law, that had nothing to do with it. Palestine was a League of Nations protectorate mandated to British administration. Most of the Jews who showed up there did so illegally. The Brits were no better at sealing the border of Palestine, which was quite prominent on their maps, than the US does with the Mexican border.

This is in all the history books.


7s The problem is these were tribes that were at one time nomadic. They moved around, the lands crossed. They fought, they lived and died on the same lands. Where Israel was created was once the Ottoman empire. There was no Palestine on the map.


7m Palestine which has existed for at least 2500 years and is mentioned seven times by Herodotus and was reconstituted by the Romans in the early 2nd c. AD had, according to a speech by Benjamin Disraeli a population of 3/4 of a million people in the late 19th c. Yes, I have heard the BS about nomads from the poorly educated Zionists but it is not my responsibility to educate them. Stupid people insist upon saying and even believing stupid things. The facts are quite different.


8sWhether you call it a war or not, people die the same. Such as the vietnam conflict. Call it what you want, but ask those on the ground, and it was definately a war.


8m And it is a war deliberately started by Jews. They introduced terrorism to the middle east. They terror bombed the King David Hotel. When the Brits arrested Zionists they would bomb markets and bazaars to as to kill as many women and children as possible -- it was called the "price tag" policy which they still use today in the occupied territories. In fact Palestinians have yet to sink as low as the Zionists. They have never done anything parallel to kidnapping and hanging IDF members but the Jews did that to British soldiers.

8m This is in all the history books. It is not a secret. If you wish to discuss the subject in public debate then you should in fact learn the material.


9s Isreal is occupying, and if pushed further has it within their power to say "there is no Palestine".


9m And if you are going to debate this subject in public you should not mix up your zionist propaganda stories. Above you recite there was no Palestine nonsense and now you talking about their present power. Of course real history, the kind in real history books says Israel wiped Palestine off the map in 1948. No one has missed it which is why I conclude if Israel is wiped off the map no one will miss it either.


10s And could make valid arguments they are doing it for their own "defense".


10m That argument can be made but in law when deaths occur in the commission of a crime it is called felony murder. A thief may argument he was defending his right to keep what he stole but no rational person would accept such an argument.


11s And they could proclaim it is all part of isreal now,


11m Which is what Germany did in 1940 when it annexed western Poland. In 1947 many were hanged for that at Nuremberg. Annexation by military conquest is in fact a war crime.

11m Which is why I point out there are so many Jews facing execution for the criminal annexation of East Jerusalem and the Syrian Heights.

11m German might does not make right but Jewish might is identical to right.


11s and under their jurisdiction and theirs alone. This would be unpopular politically, but it is not beyond the realm of possibilities.


11m The idea is a very popular one in Israel with a solid majority in favor of it. However they keep pointing out they have not found a way to get rid of the Palestinians. Were it to happen to Jews the whining would never end -- they still eat Hamen's ears at Purim.


11s A blockade is an act of war. And it is up to who is maintaining the blockade what may or may not pass. Anyone violating that blockade is part of the conflict. the USA and Cuba had a similar situation.. And when the russian ships arrived things got a bit tense.


11m But as there was not a state of war no Russian ships were stopped, boarded or towed to Miami. If you wish to make an argument by analogy you should in fact learn about what you wish to use an an analogy.


12m "I know the Geneva conventions give the occupied people the absolute right to use deadly force against those occupying them. When it is good judgement or not is a separate question. In attacking their oppressors they are acting lawfully and morally. "

12s Yep. And Isreal has a right to maintain security. Using deadly force as needed. And the battle rages on. Like I said.. they must really like it.


12m What does a starvation blockade have to do with security? Israel knew there were no weapons on the ships. What does targeting children for collective punishment have to do with security? What does collective punishment of anyone have to do with security?


13s After the American Civil War, former slaves were promised 40 acres and a mule.
They are still waiting. But we are not killing each other over it.


13m What might be the connection? But there is a better comparison. The property of Jews was confiscated by Nazi Germany and by Poland after the war. Jews have demanded and have received compensation. They are not waiting, they are getting.

13m Why do not Palestinians have the same right to the same justice that Jews claim for themselves?


14s The land lost in conflicts.. are gone. They could negotiate and get some back.


14m Conflicts are over sovereignty not ownership. You should learn the difference between the two. They have a right to all of their property. Jews can provide the sovereign civil government for the land as long as all are citizens and all can participate in the government. That is why expulsion was required to have an Israel.

14m Thieves do not have the right to negotiate what they will return.


14s Or continue to fight and lose the rest. Or continue to try to drag others into their sandbox mentallity WAR.


14m The acquisition of territory the conquest remains a hanging offense under international law. Those who would do it are war criminals of the same order as Hitler and Goering and Himmler. I note the attitude of jewish Israelis is that they are above the law even after they agree to the law.


15s If you do not consider Isreal a Jewish state, I can respect that opinion. I suppose Iran is not a Muslim state by the same standards.


15m Why would I care? I merely pointed out the US has a greater reason to call itself Christian than Israel to call itself Jewish. I also pointed out Jewish Israelis have superior rights to non-Jewish Israelis and that politically advocating equal rights is a crime in Israel.

15m Obviously Israel is nothing like a western democracy and gives the entire idea of democracy a bad name.


16s"Therefore I will continue to challenge the term "Zionist" to lump Judaism and Christianity together. In fact I am neither, And have little use for Zealots and radicals.

16m You can continue all you wish but even those anonymous sources did not exclude non-jews from declaring themselves Zionists nor does anything in them limit it to Jews only. You really should look into sources more suited to your education level. "

17s I expected nothing better. I will continue to challenge this combative, hateful, and WRONG form of speech. Your experiences have obviously been limited, and your reading very selective.


17m I merely point out you know next to nothing about the subject yet choose to engage in public discussion as though you do. That the facts contradict your statements is obvious by inspection. I am not responsible for the education of zionists but I have no problem exposing their whatever, either ignorance or lies such as the Bedouin nonsense you tried to pass off as fact.


18s You are thriving on the conflict you complain about. You are just dissatisfied with its current results. But you made your bed, you Lay in it.


18m The only dog I have in their fight is tax dollars and the reputation of the US and the oil needs of the US and in fact the world. Thus I see it as a good thing to bring peace to a part of the middle east. Peace can only come with justice to the victims of Zionism.

19m Remember Obama simply asked that Israel cease committing the war crime of settling its population in areas under military occupation and Israel refused bluntly despite the billions of dollars in charity each year that has been going on for decades. And this is another example of your ignorance when you kept posting about the US becoming involved and obviously being unaware off all this charity to the ungrateful zionists.

19m Antizionism is a moral imperative.


20s Isreal is internationally recognized as a country.


20m It is the least recognized country in the world with some fifty countries refusing to acknowledge its existence mainly for the criminal nature of its government.


20s It is not going away, nor pulling back from the Banks of the Jordan.


20m Then it is only reasonable to build some gallows in preparation for the day when justice will prevail.

21m Apartheid South Africa was equally confident it would last forever. It just takes time. The number and extent of boycotts are increasing every year. It is just a matter of time until enough voters favor the idea that they elect governments which will make it official.


22s That Palestine was once larger, is notable. Just keep in mind, it can get much smaller too. If you do not SEEK peace, then blame yourself.


22m Remember to keep your hasbara stories straight. Don't in one place say it was not a map and then post like it was. One propaganda line at a time. You won't confuse yourself so much if you keep them separate.

22mIf Israel really wanted peace it would do what it required for peace, compensate its victims instead of creating more victims every day. It could stop committing crimes against Palestinians instead of continuing to commit them.

22m All you are suggesting is the rapee stop resisting the rapist who has all the power and the ruthlessness to make victims of children to get what it wants.
#s=soft spirit
#m=Matt.. responses below, since the quoting capabilities are limited enough I resorted to notepad.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

1:Your perception of the truth can indeed be hate. The truth is often filled with hate.
Your version of the truth. Unless you claim divinity, and to be infallible, your reciting
words from some hate filled publication is as far as you can get from "the truth" as you can get without
randomly making it up yourself.
2:"the Perps" continues to ignore there is too sides to every story. Again continuing what I have mentioned.
You intentionally make your posts as un-quotable as possible to try to avoid response. You by yourself
Have investigated,arrested, tried, found guilty, and wish to impose punishment without input from others.
you must consider yourself a GOD.
3: You are making the grand jump that you know what you are talking about, without taking a larger view. As a courtesy,
I try (and in your case fail) to educate that there is more involved than the oppression of one people by another. You do not assume that any opinion other than your own, can be valid. Again, unless you claim infallibility, very presumptuous.
4: You came up with one usage by the most radical christian in the USA. This is much like Taking the words of Osama
Bin Laden to represent the total of Islam. I am guessing it was taken out of context, and the publication you quoted from
is certainly capable of bending "the truth" to fit their own perspective. Again, any reference to the USA as a "Zionist"
nation, is a direct attack. My guess is most x-tians that consider themselves zionist.. really have no clue what they are
talking about.
5 I will take that reply to mean you will not hold yourself to the same standards you seem to wish to hold me to.


::: Any christians here consider themselves Zionists?
::: Anyone here Jewish consider Christans Zionist?
This is an input request. help me out here.

6: ahh yes.. they had the NERVE to try to leave their wonderful homes in Germany.. Hmmm... why was that.... Wait.. Let me think about this... Germany.. heading into 30's and 40's.. Jewish.... Was it trying to expand their empire?? um no...
that is not quite it... Maybe to avoid being SLAUGHTERED LIKE CATTLE??

7: really.. so.. Palestine has outlasted the Ottoman empire, the Roman empire, Egyption expansion, World war 1 and 2,
and ever since as its own country? Then I guess there is no need for this discussion. Since they have and are doing
so well for themselves (note:Sarcasm). (sarcasm off) I am preaching to the deaf. SEEK PEACE OR DIE.FACT.

8: Thank you. You finally admitted it is a war. Blockades are part of war. Finally got one portion solved.

9: By admitting "Of course real history, the kind in real history books says Israel wiped Palestine off the map in 1948. No one has missed it which is why I conclude if Israel is wiped off the map no one will miss it either. " you now paint the palestinians as the agressors. You have taken it farther than I would. I simply said the fighting has not stopped, nor would it until both sides actively sought peace. But.. You take it further than that. How long have you been a Zionist?

10:In acts of war and national defense, There are no such laws. Do you honestly not see where you have crossed the line from
"Truth" to "opinion"? You remind me much of one of the American "News" networks. Just in another direction. Lost in a war
does not mean STOLEN. If it was stolen, call the police, take it to court, and get it back. Or it is gone. Quit fighting in the streets over it.OPINION.

11:Still trying to find FACT in this section.. so far just opinions. Ahh here we go. When russian ships arrived at the blockade, They had 3 options. The blockade, itself, was an act of war. (my opinion) The russian ships could either 1: attempt to bypass the blockade, and risk being blown out of the water, without further communications. 2: agree to be boarded, inspected and then if cleared allowed to continue to Cuba (of course they were non-military supply ships by description, even though they contained missle parts) or 3: Turn around and go back.They chose #3. They turned around and left. Choice 1 means war. With or without declaration. But the war with Cuba was declared BY the blockade. The result: Cuba's goverment and the USA goverment still hate each other. But we have not been
killing each other. It is called "Civilization" and you really should try it some time. FACT.

12:(12?!?! see why these need trimmed?)A blockade is a blockade. Describing the type of blockade is inaccurate,non-factual,
and misses the point. Same choices as Cuba exist. Fight, Flight, or concede. FACT.

13:(omg this is silly) you can ask for anything you want. That does not mean you get it. If you keep killing each other over it.. you get lots more dead bodies. That is all you get. FACT.

14: back to judge/jury/executioner. A busy life to be sure. You can not take part in the governing until you quit trying to destroy the government. A choice to be sure, a difficult one. Fix it, fight it, or work to change it. Your choice is obvious. You have no right to expect that to be painless. Nor guiltless. FACT.

15: Mexico is a Catholic state, with freedom to practice other religions, the religion is woven into their laws directly.
The USA had Protestants, Catholics, Athiests as its founders, who made the (opinion: WISE) decision to not align the government with ANY religion. The moral values people bring in, have included Protestants, Catholics, Athiests, Agnostics, Pagan, Muslims and any other religious person that could get elected. Do the different religions or lack thereof push their own perspectives? of course. They also lose as much as they win. Many government decisions are at odds with different religious beliefs. None are muzzled, and we are forced at times to listen to the zealots spout off nonsense. But at the end of the day, they do not make the decisions. The entire country was founded by people fleeing religious persecution. You can understand that can't you? You sited and I sited some examples well known in history. There is no (and without destroying the constitution) can be no offical religion of the united states.

16 Still waiting for your siting an UNBIASED source stating otherwise.

17 See 16. Define Zionism from an UNBIASED source better than I did. Any encyclopedia or dictionary will do.
Until you learn the meaning of a word, I suggest you stop using it.

18 again, palestinians are not "victims" as long as they are active combatants. Neither is Israel. Again, they deserve each other.
19: Morals vary. Perception is reality. Define Zionism(again, reliable source) before you even try to fight it. Or you end up swinging at a lot of potential allies. And the battles rage on.

20: The only ones that are tried and executed for war crimes are those that lose. Sad, but FACT. (notice I did not say if found guilty. Those trying them invariably have pre-arranged the verdict)

21: um.. when did you write that? Cause last I checked Apartheid had ended, Nelson Mandela was president, and there has been
no bloodbath. Again.. perhaps a need to get out to better news sources. Your version of Faux news and enquirer are just not cutting it.

22 Yet again, this is not a rapist/rapee situation. This is a continued bar room brawl, or maybe a sandbox fight, 2 spoiled children throwing sand in each others eyes, hitting each other and screaming "they started it WHAAAAAA".

Grow the heck up.
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Message 1020588 - Posted: 29 Jul 2010, 13:13:36 UTC - in response to Message 1020561.  

The bar room brawl continues. This is broken record tactics. *yawn*

Might I ask you to take your sorry line down the street, cause this Five and Dime Ain't buyin it today!!

(whaa they hurt me)(they started it) (did not) (did too)

The solution will ultimately be in diplomacy. And neither side is ready to deal with that. Both are busy crying how they have been wronged.

*yawn* wake me when both sides are ready to join the 20th century.
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Message 1020592 - Posted: 29 Jul 2010, 13:21:52 UTC - in response to Message 1020563.  

Again point goes to Soft.....well offered questions and he just can't offer a viable answer that gives a direct response.


The present situation in Palestine is the direct consequence of Jews going there and expelling the native population. It is presently the best it can be as a consequence of the actions of Jews.

Jews continue to CHOOSE of their own free will to live there under the present conditions so those conditions can't be all that bad.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.

That is all there is to it.


It is their land now. Deal with it. If you lose a confrontation (any other term for WAR) you do not make the terms of surrender, and in fact there has been no terms of surrender. There has been no surrender. Hence the hostilities continue.


I suggested you learn the difference between sovereignty and ownership. You continue to post as though you do not know the difference. Is this deliberate on you part?

When The Soviet union invaded czechoslovakia, it became part of the soviet union.


That is total bullshit. You have no idea what was meant by the Soviet Union. Or is this deliberate too?

Until the soviet union fell. Such is the fact of losing. You do not make the conditions.


Why do you continue to post things which are clearly false? Is there a point to it? When does the criminal occupation end? When do Jews stop provoking the Palestinians by committing crimes against them?

You have to know of their crimes to pretend to discuss them.


Sorry, did they leave this out of your Hammas text books?
Soviet union was the United Social Soviet Republic. USSR.

When do Palestinians stop provoking Jews and committing crimes against them?

This is really, really a tired argument. Both sides SHUT UP AND STOP THIS NONSENSE!!
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Message 1020593 - Posted: 29 Jul 2010, 13:23:22 UTC - in response to Message 1020564.  


"I prefer strongly biased sources like Haaretz and the Jerusalem Post."

Of course you do. They reinforce your very opinionated self righteous views.
Gods forbid you could actually LEARN something and get a bigger view.

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Message 1020594 - Posted: 29 Jul 2010, 13:31:13 UTC

Perhaps there is hope. But not in the direction Matt is looking.

Commit random acts of kindness, and senseless acts of beauty.
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Message 1020612 - Posted: 29 Jul 2010, 15:38:54 UTC - in response to Message 1020594.  

a beautiful story


In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
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Message 1020763 - Posted: 30 Jul 2010, 4:22:20 UTC - in response to Message 1020593.  

Gods forbid you could actually LEARN something and get a bigger view.

If you think God gave man a brain then he did so for a reason. Use it! Fully!!

If you think Satan gave man a brain, then don't use it! Rely solely on DNA.

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Message 1020775 - Posted: 30 Jul 2010, 14:16:47 UTC - in response to Message 1020518.  

Matt,

In your worst of your rants, can you possibly defend this?


In this case, Iran is living up to its claims about itself.


OK, so you are depraved enough to endorse the arbitrary stoning to death of women, mothers, and their unborn children.

You have no basis to argue anything.

Martin.


[...]

If your ability to discuss a subject is solely limited to misrepresenting what has been said then in fact you do not have the ability to conduct a rational discussion.


Matt,

You prevaricate and move all goal posts into a random argument very effectively.


The simple question is:

Do YOU, that is yourself, condone the arbitrary stoning to death of women? Or the stoning to death of anyone for that matter?


Or do you simply have too much slime and bile to answer anything honestly?


Regards,
Martin

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
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Message 1020778 - Posted: 30 Jul 2010, 14:26:49 UTC - in response to Message 1020775.  
Last modified: 30 Jul 2010, 14:30:19 UTC

Heck lets try an easier one

DO you believe in and condone Honor killing of female family members in Islamic society? where the Woman whose only crime is being alone in public(without male family companions) is murdered for being raped by a man, a amn not using his own self control to not rape a woman.


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Message 1020802 - Posted: 30 Jul 2010, 15:07:32 UTC

I pulled this out of my rather verbose post..
Requesting input.....

::: Any christians here consider themselves Zionists?
::: Anyone here Jewish consider Christans Zionist?
This is an input request. help me out here.

Thank you in advance.
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Message 1020830 - Posted: 30 Jul 2010, 15:53:44 UTC - in response to Message 1020802.  

By the historic view and by my understanding the person calling someone a ZIonist is a Bigot.


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Message 1020910 - Posted: 30 Jul 2010, 19:39:39 UTC - in response to Message 1020802.  

I pulled this out of my rather verbose post..
Requesting input.....

::: Any christians here consider themselves Zionists?
::: Anyone here Jewish consider Christans Zionist?
This is an input request. help me out here.

Thank you in advance.

soft^spirit

I do not know of any Christians who consider themselves Zionists. But there are some fundamentalist Christians who support the return of Jews to Israel because they believe that is a pre-condition to the return of Christ.

Just as an aside, it should be obvious that Matt_Gwier is a bigot who is unwilling to consider any other viewpoint than his own. He has been removed more than once from posting here, so it seems he has little respect for boundaries or social limits. It takes a lot of patience to keep up a dialogue with someone like him, so I wonder why you continue such a fruitless discussion?
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Message 1020924 - Posted: 30 Jul 2010, 20:01:04 UTC - in response to Message 1020910.  

I pulled this out of my rather verbose post..
Requesting input.....

::: Any christians here consider themselves Zionists?
::: Anyone here Jewish consider Christans Zionist?
This is an input request. help me out here.

Thank you in advance.

soft^spirit

I do not know of any Christians who consider themselves Zionists. But there are some fundamentalist Christians who support the return of Jews to Israel because they believe that is a pre-condition to the return of Christ.

Just as an aside, it should be obvious that Matt_Gwier is a bigot who is unwilling to consider any other viewpoint than his own. He has been removed more than once from posting here, so it seems he has little respect for boundaries or social limits. It takes a lot of patience to keep up a dialogue with someone like him, so I wonder why you continue such a fruitless discussion?


I am Christian
I do not consider myself "Zionist"
I find offense in Giwer's use of the term


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Message 1020933 - Posted: 30 Jul 2010, 20:37:29 UTC - in response to Message 1020910.  

I pulled this out of my rather verbose post..
Requesting input.....

::: Any christians here consider themselves Zionists?
::: Anyone here Jewish consider Christans Zionist?
This is an input request. help me out here.

Thank you in advance.

soft^spirit

I do not know of any Christians who consider themselves Zionists. But there are some fundamentalist Christians who support the return of Jews to Israel because they believe that is a pre-condition to the return of Christ.

Just as an aside, it should be obvious that Matt_Gwier is a bigot who is unwilling to consider any other viewpoint than his own. He has been removed more than once from posting here, so it seems he has little respect for boundaries or social limits. It takes a lot of patience to keep up a dialogue with someone like him, so I wonder why you continue such a fruitless discussion?


An excellent question in your "aside". His history, I was unaware of, although not surprised by. Why take on the dialogue? Perhaps there was just too much ill thought out garbage to let go unchallenged. Perhaps it was the combative attitude. Perhaps my stubborn nature. Perhaps because I have time. Perhaps some of all of these reasons.

I have sympathy to the difficulty of all the people involved. To see someone try to spread the conflict even further just ruffles my feathers. If someone was as vehemently promoting the other end of the equation I would probably be equally as ruffled.

Nothing here is going to change the world. At the end of the day, individual
opinions matter little. But... I have time.

Visualize Whirled Peas.
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Message 1021567 - Posted: 1 Aug 2010, 8:37:32 UTC - in response to Message 1020775.  

Matt,

In your worst of your rants, can you possibly defend this?


In this case, Iran is living up to its claims about itself.


OK, so you are depraved enough to endorse the arbitrary stoning to death of women, mothers, and their unborn children.

You have no basis to argue anything.

Martin.


[...]

If your ability to discuss a subject is solely limited to misrepresenting what has been said then in fact you do not have the ability to conduct a rational discussion.


Matt,

You prevaricate and move all goal posts into a random argument very effectively.


The simple question is:

Do YOU, that is yourself, condone the arbitrary stoning to death of women? Or the stoning to death of anyone for that matter?


Or do you simply have too much slime and bile to answer anything honestly?


Regards,
Martin


In another post I came out those who are trying to impose Torah law in Israel. Why do you think I would support stoning in either country?

... even if they do say Jehovah!
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