The Massacre of the Gaza Aid Flotilla

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Matt Giwer
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Message 1019647 - Posted: 26 Jul 2010, 6:55:02 UTC - in response to Message 1001815.  

Interesting. Very interesting. All our press shows Israel as 'innocent' but the government statements about it absolutely different. So if US will allow UN sanctions against Israel we will not place veto on them it think.


Needless to say now though nearly two months have passed and still not a single credible sanctions threat.

Israel finally returned the ships it pirated on the high seas and outside of the military exclusion zone. It took so long as Israel was trying to extort a guarantee from Turkey that no future aid convoy would originate in Turkey. Turkey held out for international law and, in a rare moment and like a mistake, Israel complied with international law.
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Message 1019744 - Posted: 26 Jul 2010, 17:13:53 UTC - in response to Message 1019647.  

illegal? as in wartime seizure of illegal shipments. A country at war is afforded the right to search all vessels entering enemy waters for illegal and war making material. They've done according to maritime law and they have allowed all legitimate aid to pass through Israeli checkpoints. No massacre no illegal functions nothing nothing nothing. Sheesh this gets old


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Message 1019745 - Posted: 26 Jul 2010, 17:20:56 UTC - in response to Message 1007615.  
Last modified: 26 Jul 2010, 17:22:14 UTC

I tell you motivate is very simple: caucasus emirate with shariah as a law. 20 years ago no one even could think about such a thing.


20 years ago one would not have expected a violent movement in Israel to establish Torah law in the country. Between the two, Shariah is much more civilized.

Yep Afghanistan worked so well under that. No Women in Public without a male relative. No womens education.
Adultery- the man was seduced, the woman gets stoned to death.
For lack of interest I won't write all the reasons this is foolish
Again a very short sighted and ignorant idea


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Message 1019747 - Posted: 26 Jul 2010, 17:26:30 UTC - in response to Message 1019745.  

20 years ago one would not have expected a violent movement in Israel to establish Torah law in the country. Between the two, Shariah is much more civilized.

Yep Afghanistan worked so well under that. No Women in Public without a male relative. No womens education.
Adultery- the man was seduced, the woman gets stoned to death. ...

Still very nasty. This is happening NOW!

Avaaz: Stop Stoning!

Last week a massive global outcry stopped an Iranian woman, Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani, from being stoned to death.

But Sakineh still faces hanging, and today, fifteen more people await execution by stoning -- people are buried up to their necks and large rocks are hurled at their heads. ...



All for just showing too much ankle?


We all may yet help...

Education would be an even bigger help.

Regards,
Martin

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
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Message 1019752 - Posted: 26 Jul 2010, 17:58:25 UTC - in response to Message 1002074.  

Matt, you do realize Zionist is a derogatory term used to include both jewish and christians? Do you realize that by its constitution the united states
guarantees freedom for ALL religions, including not only Jewish, Christians, Muslims; but Buddhist, Pagans of every flavor, and too many other religions to even name?

We constantly have to defend these freedoms, from within as well as from without. But we have seen the results of zealots gone wild, and the majority of americans have little patience with it. Believe as you wish, practice your religion within the laws(no we will not turn a blind eye to human sacrifice, and many other things) But the lesson is tolerance. And honestly beyond the politics, we are for the most part aggravated by both muslim and jewish intolerance of each other. We are aggravated at the extremist Christians nearly as much as we are with extremist Muslims(they have not blown up major buildings.. YET).

History may show that when the USA reacts, it over reacts. We had a couple of buildings blown up, as a result we took part in blowing up a couple of countries. Before that Japan might have warned it was a bad idea to tick the USA off. We are a disorganized disagreeable bunch with each other on a good day. It is a bad idea to get us all ticked off at the same thing. It is hard to do, but it can be done. I do not advise it.

Is it right that the USA over reacts when it reacts? Nope. But it happens.
I expect the USA will be pretty quiet about Isreal. But if we get shoved into it, it could be ugly. For both ends.

So pray.. to whatever diety you wish.. that peaceful solutions can be worked out. There has been way too much killing already.


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Message 1019950 - Posted: 27 Jul 2010, 3:29:39 UTC - in response to Message 1019744.  
Last modified: 27 Jul 2010, 3:35:21 UTC

illegal? as in wartime seizure of illegal shipments. A country at war is afforded the right to search all vessels entering enemy waters for illegal and war making material. They've done according to maritime law and they have allowed all legitimate aid to pass through Israeli checkpoints. No massacre no illegal functions nothing nothing nothing. Sheesh this gets old


I read in Haaretz, an Israeli and muslimrein news source, that the Mamara was boarded outside the military exclusion zone declared by Israel. Only actions inside the exclusion zone are lawful. That is why Naval exclusion zones are approved and regulated by international treaty to which Israel is a party. That means the action was unlawful and perhaps rising to an act of piracy.

As this attack was without to protections of the treaties it was of course lawful to repel boarders. However in the hour long video from the Marmara one can clearly hear shots being fired before the boarding started. No one has found a problem with that video whereas all Israeli videos have been exposed as forgeries again as reported by Israeli sources.

But back to the facts. Turk autopsies found five of the dead died of small caliber head shots as close range. That spells confirming the kill an Israeli policy going back to 1948 and which is also considered murder even in Israel.

I have yet to find any mention of Israel in fact declaring a state of war to exist between itself and Gaza. Without such a declaration actions are not covered by the treaties of war to which Israel is a party.

I have learned all I know about the Israeli food, clothing and other necessities blockade from sources both Jewish and Israeli. I have learned that only 114 specific items are permitted to enter Gaza in quantities determined by Israel. Food is not one of the 114 items. Each permitted food is individually listed. You may recall a year ago it took a visiting US congressman demanding an explanation of the prohibition on pasta to get pasta added to the list.

It is not a list of prohibited but only of what is permitted. Schoolbooks, crayons, and toys are not on the list. Therefore it is clear children are being targeted. Any and all collective punishment is a war crime.

A month ago Israel announced in English it was going to change this to a list of what is prohibited. The announcement in Hebrew said no such thing -- again according to the Israeli news source Haaretz, the oldest Hebrew language newspaper in Palestine. As of another article from the same source just last week the original permitted list is still in place. Even if there is some day a prohibited list we will have no idea what it will mean in practice.

There has a been a specific Israeli government statement that exports will not be permitted nor will raw materials for local manufacture. Thus they will have to buy their finished products from Israel. Now maybe Israeli newspapers are making it all up and are really staffed by closet "arabs." However Haaretz is well known for having no non-Jewish employees at any level in any job including janitorial.

So we have the obvious points. The attack was conducted outside the exclusion zone and therefore not protected by international law. Israel has not declared war in Gaza and thus the protections afforded by the treaties on war cannot be invoked. Resistance to boarders is always lawful no matter who does the boarding.

We do agree it was a massacre.

--
I find it odd people keep accusing me of not posting the truth when almost all my information about Israel comes from sources which are impeccably both Jewish and Israeli.
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Message 1019951 - Posted: 27 Jul 2010, 3:29:59 UTC - in response to Message 1019752.  

Matt, you do realize Zionist is a derogatory term used to include both jewish and christians?


I am aware that statement is untrue. I am aware haaretz.com and jpost.com both use the word to refer to both jewish and christian zionists. I am aware those two leading Israeli newspapers in their website English translations also use the term Zionist Enterprise. They also refer to secular and religious zionism. I am aware they never use the term as a pejorative description. I can provide many times more examples than would be welcomed as postings to this thread.

But if you insist you are correct then you can go to those websites and inform the editors of the error of their ways. But in the mean time please do not accuse me of something which is prima facia untrue.

Do you realize that by its constitution the united states
guarantees freedom for ALL religions, including not only Jewish, Christians, Muslims; but Buddhist, Pagans of every flavor, and too many other religions to even name?


As you appear to be referring to the separation of church and state it is also perfectly legitimate perhaps even a mandatory civic duty to object to the use of any religion or any aspect of any religion influencing political and policy decisions of the US government. Unfortunately that is not the case.

We constantly have to defend these freedoms, from within as well as from without. But we have seen the results of zealots gone wild, and the majority of americans have little patience with it. Believe as you wish, practice your religion within the laws(no we will not turn a blind eye to human sacrifice, and many other things) But the lesson is tolerance. And honestly beyond the politics, we are for the most part aggravated by both muslim and jewish intolerance of each other. We are aggravated at the extremist Christians nearly as much as we are with extremist Muslims(they have not blown up major buildings.. YET).


The Murrah Building was not major? It was not a tit for tat exchange for Waco? While not a building the USS Liberty was the deliberate murder of 34 Americans and an attempt to murder the rest. The foreknowledge of 9/11 by Israelis is evidenced by the instant messages received by two Odigo workers and I have an article from Haaretz.com confirming it.

History may show that when the USA reacts, it over reacts. We had a couple of buildings blown up, as a result we took part in blowing up a couple of countries. Before that Japan might have warned it was a bad idea to tick the USA off. We are a disorganized disagreeable bunch with each other on a good day. It is a bad idea to get us all ticked off at the same thing. It is hard to do, but it can be done. I do not advise it.

Is it right that the USA over reacts when it reacts? Nope. But it happens.
I expect the USA will be pretty quiet about Isreal. But if we get shoved into it, it could be ugly. For both ends.

So pray.. to whatever diety you wish.. that peaceful solutions can be worked out. There has been way too much killing already.


I suggest rather a just solution is required and the standard of justice has been established as the justice Jews demand from Germany over WWII.
-----
I find it odd people keep accusing me of not posting the truth when almost all my information about Israel comes from sources which are impeccably both Jewish and Israeli.
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Matt Giwer
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Message 1019956 - Posted: 27 Jul 2010, 3:52:14 UTC - in response to Message 1019745.  

I tell you motivate is very simple: caucasus emirate with shariah as a law. 20 years ago no one even could think about such a thing.


20 years ago one would not have expected a violent movement in Israel to establish Torah law in the country. Between the two, Shariah is much more civilized.

Yep Afghanistan worked so well under that. No Women in Public without a male relative. No womens education.
Adultery- the man was seduced, the woman gets stoned to death.
For lack of interest I won't write all the reasons this is foolish
Again a very short sighted and ignorant idea


Similar things used to happen in the US when the man was Black.

It still happens in parts of the world which claim to uphold western standards of justice.

Haaretz

he-impersonated-a-human-being-1.303359

Thu, July 22, 2010 Av 11, 5770

* Published 02:04 22.07.10
* Latest update 02:04 22.07.10

He impersonated a human being

Sabbar Kashur wanted to be a person, a person like everybody else. But as
luck would have it, he was born Palestinian.

By Gideon Levy

Sabbar Kashur wanted to be a person, a person like everybody else. But as
luck would have it, he was born Palestinian. It happens. His chances of
being accepted as a human being in Israel are nil. Married and a father of
two, he wanted to work in Jerusalem, his city, and maybe also have an affair
or a quickie on the side. That happens too.

He knew that he had no chance with the Jews, so he adopted another name for
himself, Dudu. He didn't have curly hair, but he went by Dudu just the same.
That's how everyone knew him. That's how you know a few other Arabs too: the
car-wash guy you call Rafi, the stairwell cleaner who goes by Yossi, the
supermarket deliveryman you know as Moshe.

What's wrong? Is it only fearsome Shin Bet interrogators like "Capt. George"
and "Abu Faraj" who are allowed to adopt names from other peoples? Are only
Israelis who emigrate allowed to invent new identities? Only the Yossi from
Hadera who became Joe in Miami, the Avraham from Bat Yam who became Abe in
Los Angeles?

No longer a youth, Sabbar/Dudu worked as a deliveryman for a lawyer's
office, rode his scooter around Jerusalem and delivered documents,
affidavits and sworn testimonies, swearing to everyone that he was Dudu. Two
years ago he met a woman by chance. Nice to meet you, my name is Dudu. He
claims that she came on to him, but let's leave the details aside. Soon
enough they went where they went and what happened happened, all by consent
of the parties concerned. One fine day, a month and a half after an
afternoon quickie, he was summoned to the police on suspicion of rape.

His temporary lover discovered that her Dudu wasn't a Dudu after all, that
the Jew is (gasp! ) an Arab, and so she filed a complaint against the
impostor. Her body was violated by an Arab. From then on Kashur was placed
under house arrest for two years, an electronic cuff on his ankle. This week
his sentence was pronounced: 18 months in jail.

Judge Zvi Segal waxed dramatic to the point of absurdity: "It is incumbent
on the court to protect the public interest from sophisticated, smooth,
sweet-talking offenders who can mislead naive victims into paying an
unbearable price: the sanctity of their bodies and souls." Sophisticated
offenders? It is doubtful that Dudu even knew he was one. Sweet talk? He
says that even his wife calls him Dudu.

The court relied, as usual, on precedents: the man who posed as a senior
Housing Ministry official and promised his lover an apartment and an
increased National Insurance pension, and the man who posed as a wealthy
neurosurgeon who promised free medical care and other perks. Dudu had
nothing to offer but his good name, Dudu, and still his fate was sealed,
just like those who promise apartments and perks. Not only fraud, but rape,
almost like the convicted serial rapist Benny Sela.

Supreme Court Justice Elyakim Rubinstein had, after all, defined the test of
conviction for rape on "false pretenses": "if in the view of an ordinary
person this woman would have agreed to have sexual relations with a man who
did not have the identity he invented."

In tune with the public, Kashur's judges assumed, rightly, that the woman
would not have gotten into bed with Dudu were it not for the identity he
invented. She also might not have gotten into bed with him if he had told
her in vain that he was available, that he was younger than he really is or
even that he is madly in love with her. But people are not prosecuted for
that, certainly not on rape charges.

Now the respected judges have to be asked: If the man was really Dudu posing
as Sabbar, a Jew pretending to be an Arab so he could sleep with an Arab
woman, would he then be convicted of rape? And do the eminent judges
understand the social and racist meaning of their florid verdict? Don't they
realize that their verdict has the uncomfortable smell of racial purity, of
"don't touch our daughters"? That it expresses the yearning of the extensive
segments of society that would like to ban sexual relations between Arabs
and Jews?

It was no coincidence that this verdict attracted the attention of foreign
correspondents in Israel, temporary visitors who see every blemish. Yes, in
German or Afrikaans this disgraceful verdict would have sounded much worse.
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Message 1019960 - Posted: 27 Jul 2010, 4:11:54 UTC - in response to Message 1019951.  

Matt, you do realize Zionist is a derogatory term used to include both jewish and christians?


I am aware that statement is untrue. I am aware haaretz.com and jpost.com both use the word to refer to both jewish and christian zionists. I am aware those two leading Israeli newspapers in their website English translations also use the term Zionist Enterprise. They also refer to secular and religious zionism. I am aware they never use the term as a pejorative description. I can provide many times more examples than would be welcomed as postings to this thread.

But if you insist you are correct then you can go to those websites and inform the editors of the error of their ways. But in the mean time please do not accuse me of something which is prima facia untrue.

"Zionism (Hebrew: ציונות‎, Tsiyonut) is a nationalist[1] Jewish political movement that, in its broadest sense, calls for the self-determination of the Jewish people and a sovereign, Jewish national homeland.[2] Since the establishment of the State of Israel, the Zionist movement continues primarily to support and advocate on behalf of the Jewish state, and its current existence." according to wikipedia. Using the term to include every christian based sect in the united states is disingenuous at best.. And I perceive it to be an inflammatory term.

Do you realize that by its constitution the united states
guarantees freedom for ALL religions, including not only Jewish, Christians, Muslims; but Buddhist, Pagans of every flavor, and too many other religions to even name?


As you appear to be referring to the separation of church and state it is also perfectly legitimate perhaps even a mandatory civic duty to object to the use of any religion or any aspect of any religion influencing political and policy decisions of the US government. Unfortunately that is not the case.


The government is influenced by people of all faiths. That is as it should be.
It is not controlled by any single religion, despite the insistance of some that it should be by THEIR religion. The law itself is secular, but it does not and should not that all involved must not have a religion. It is influenced by the religious, but under NO religion.



We constantly have to defend these freedoms, from within as well as from without. But we have seen the results of zealots gone wild, and the majority of americans have little patience with it. Believe as you wish, practice your religion within the laws(no we will not turn a blind eye to human sacrifice, and many other things) But the lesson is tolerance. And honestly beyond the politics, we are for the most part aggravated by both muslim and jewish intolerance of each other. We are aggravated at the extremist Christians nearly as much as we are with extremist Muslims(they have not blown up major buildings.. YET).


The Murrah Building was not major? It was not a tit for tat exchange for Waco? While not a building the USS Liberty was the deliberate murder of 34 Americans and an attempt to murder the rest. The foreknowledge of 9/11 by Israelis is evidenced by the instant messages received by two Odigo workers and I have an article from Haaretz.com confirming it.


The Murrah building(what we would know as the "Oklahoma City Bombing" was not a religious attack. In fact it was done by those who felt they needed to attack the federal building to defend their freedom of religion.. inspired by the Wacco Tx Massacre. It was an un-necessary and insane act of violence. Told you we were a disorganized and disagreeable bunch. Isreal knew 9/11 was coming, WE knew 9/11 was coming("Bin Laden determined to attack within the united states" pretty much summs it up.) This simply shows Isreal has very good intelligence.
The response to the buildings that fell? Countries fell. We even took out an extra one Just because we were angry. One was the wrong one. But we will clean them up.. put bandaids on them.. and then leave them. We really do not want to stay in that sandbox.

[quote}

History may show that when the USA reacts, it over reacts. We had a couple of buildings blown up, as a result we took part in blowing up a couple of countries. Before that Japan might have warned it was a bad idea to tick the USA off. We are a disorganized disagreeable bunch with each other on a good day. It is a bad idea to get us all ticked off at the same thing. It is hard to do, but it can be done. I do not advise it.

Is it right that the USA over reacts when it reacts? Nope. But it happens.
I expect the USA will be pretty quiet about Isreal. But if we get shoved into it, it could be ugly. For both ends.

So pray.. to whatever diety you wish.. that peaceful solutions can be worked out. There has been way too much killing already.


I suggest rather a just solution is required and the standard of justice has been established as the justice Jews demand from Germany over WWII.
-----
I find it odd people keep accusing me of not posting the truth when almost all my information about Israel comes from sources which are impeccably both Jewish and Israeli. [/quote]

I find no sources "impeccable" Especially websites I have never heard of before. I agree that a Just solution needs to be worked out. So instead of lumping USA and Isreal together.. WORK IT OUT. Both sides.
Because if the United States gets dragged into it.. We would probably be forced to pick both sides up and slap them silly. Is that really what you want to see?

Pallestine needs to stop lobbing in bombs and missles into isreal, isreal needs to quit knocking down settlements.. and you all need to get a grip. We will not start it. But we will end it if we have to. Again.. I highly recommend you let us fight each other (Wacco/Oklahoma City/Rodney King... we have no shortage of small things to fight each other over..) Rather than getting us ALL angry at the same thing.

We hates being Annoyed.
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Message 1019961 - Posted: 27 Jul 2010, 4:17:38 UTC - in response to Message 1019956.  

Yet more proof that religious government is a bad idea. But each country figures that out in their own time.
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Message 1020001 - Posted: 27 Jul 2010, 7:04:29 UTC - in response to Message 1019960.  
Last modified: 27 Jul 2010, 7:11:28 UTC

Matt, you do realize Zionist is a derogatory term used to include both jewish and christians?


I am aware that statement is untrue. I am aware haaretz.com and jpost.com both use the word to refer to both jewish and christian zionists. I am aware those two leading Israeli newspapers in their website English translations also use the term Zionist Enterprise. They also refer to secular and religious zionism. I am aware they never use the term as a pejorative description. I can provide many times more examples than would be welcomed as postings to this thread.

But if you insist you are correct then you can go to those websites and inform the editors of the error of their ways. But in the mean time please do not accuse me of something which is prima facia untrue.

"Zionism (Hebrew: ציונות‎, Tsiyonut) is a nationalist[1] Jewish political movement that, in its broadest sense, calls for the self-determination of the Jewish people and a sovereign, Jewish national homeland.[2] Since the establishment of the State of Israel, the Zionist movement continues primarily to support and advocate on behalf of the Jewish state, and its current existence." according to wikipedia. Using the term to include every christian based sect in the united states is disingenuous at best.. And I perceive it to be an inflammatory term.


There was a poll taken back in the 1990s in the US among self-identified born again Christians on this subject. Some 60% self-identified as Christian Zionists. The spread of 40-60M depends upon the variation in the estimates of the number of born again Christians. Reciting what people call themselves, an indirect quote, cannot be considered improper. One may also consider Jerry Falwell knowledgeable on the subject.

[11]CHRISTIAN ZIONISM: AN HISTORICAL ANALYSIS AND CRITIQUE
John Hubers Lent, 2004

“Zion’s Christian Soldiers”

On October 6, 2002, the popular American investigative TV program, 60
Minutes, introduced its viewers to Christian Zionism in a segment they
entitled: “Zion’s Christian Soldiers.” Outspoken former Moral Majority
founder, The Rev. Jerry Falwell, was the primary guest. Correspondent Bob
Simon interviewed Falwell, asking his opinion on a variety of subjects
related to Middle Eastern affairs. How he replied astonished many,
infuriated many more. By week’s end his words would be published and
republished in every major news venue around the world, most notably in
those countries where Islam is the dominant faith: “I think that Muhammad
was a terrorist,” he said. “I’ve read enough of the history of his life,
written by Muslims and non Muslims, to say that he was a violent man of
war.”[12][1]

Those who looked beyond the controversy caused by Falwell’s words to the
theme of the show itself learned that millions of American Christians – 70
million was the figure Falwell used [13][2] – give unqualified support to
the modern state of Israel based largely on a belief that it came into
existence as the fulfillment of biblical promises which set the stage for
the now imminent second coming of Christ.[14][3]

They learned, too, that Christian Zionists represent a powerful political
force in America. Simon noted, as just one example, a letter-writing
campaign organized by Falwell and others in April of 2002 which took
President Bush to task for asking the Israeli government to withdraw their
tanks from the West Bank city of Jenin following one of the most violent
weeks of the intifada. Over 100,000 letters and emails flooded the White
House. While it can’t be determined for sure whether this is what made the
difference, what is sure is that soon after the letters arrived President
Bush backed down.[15][4] “There’s nothing that brings the wrath of the
Christian public in this country down on this government like abandoning or
opposing Israel in a critical matter,” noted Falwell.[16][5]

This program highlighted something that Israel watchers have long known: the
political clout of those who call themselves Christian Zionists – even
though the numbers aren’t as large as Falwell maintains. A recent poll
taken by “Stand for Israel,” (an organization headed by former Christian
Coalition director, Ralph Reed) noted that only two thirds of the American
evangelical community (those who would claim to be “born again” - the whole
of which constitutes the 70 million claimed by Falwell) say that they
support measures being taken by the Israeli government against what the poll
takers defined as “Palestinian terrorism.” (A question that skewed the
results simply by the way it was asked).[17][6] And not all of these two
thirds would necessarily be comfortable with the label “Christian
Zionist.” 56% of those who voiced support for Israel put down political
reasons for their perspective, while 28% list “end times” (which is often
noted as a foundational teaching of Christian Zionists) as a primary
motivating factor,[18][7] The picture is cloudier than “Zion’s Christian
Soldiers” would like us to believe.

Whatever the numbers there is no doubt that this is an influential movement
whose impact reaches beyond the boundaries of its core constituency. It
would not be an exaggeration to say that the majority of American Christians
who give uncritical support to Israel today have been influenced in one way
or another by the tenets of Christian Zionism, whether they buy the package
or not.


=====
Do you realize that by its constitution the united states
guarantees freedom for ALL religions, including not only Jewish, Christians, Muslims; but Buddhist, Pagans of every flavor, and too many other religions to even name?


As you appear to be referring to the separation of church and state it is also perfectly legitimate perhaps even a mandatory civic duty to object to the use of any religion or any aspect of any religion influencing political and policy decisions of the US government. Unfortunately that is not the case.


The government is influenced by people of all faiths. That is as it should be.
It is not controlled by any single religion, despite the insistance of some that it should be by THEIR religion. The law itself is secular, but it does not and should not that all involved must not have a religion. It is influenced by the religious, but under NO religion.


If one does not think charlatans use religion for political purposes I direct your attention to the subject of abortion. The charlatans take it upon themselves to speak for their god(s) correcting its error of remaining silent upon when life begins -- as though sperm and eggs were not alive leading to the "every sperm is sacred" song.

Apropos to this thread it is clear the christian dispensationalist heresy of "Judeo-Christian" religion dominates US policy in that the "teaching" is all prophecies indicate these Jews and this Israel.

Without question it uses the self-proclaimed holy/sacred/infallible words of this god to justify the plain and simple theft and murder of the private property of millions of non-Jewish Palestinians. This theft and murder has been openly part of Zionist policy since Jabotinsky's revisionist movement came to dominate the Zionism. It is not a secret. Actions damnable in any other circumstances are given wholehearted approval because of this influence of religion on US foreign policy.



We constantly have to defend these freedoms, from within as well as from without. But we have seen the results of zealots gone wild, and the majority of americans have little patience with it. Believe as you wish, practice your religion within the laws(no we will not turn a blind eye to human sacrifice, and many other things) But the lesson is tolerance. And honestly beyond the politics, we are for the most part aggravated by both muslim and jewish intolerance of each other. We are aggravated at the extremist Christians nearly as much as we are with extremist Muslims(they have not blown up major buildings.. YET).


The Murrah Building was not major? It was not a tit for tat exchange for Waco? While not a building the USS Liberty was the deliberate murder of 34 Americans and an attempt to murder the rest. The foreknowledge of 9/11 by Israelis is evidenced by the instant messages received by two Odigo workers and I have an article from Haaretz.com confirming it.


The Murrah building(what we would know as the "Oklahoma City Bombing" was not a religious attack.


As MacVeigh (sp?) gave his reason as retribution for the the government murders at the Branch Davidian compound near Waco I do not see how to call it other than a religious attack.

In fact it was done by those who felt they needed to attack the federal building to defend their freedom of religion.. inspired by the Wacco Tx Massacre. It was an un-necessary and insane act of violence. Told you we were a disorganized and disagreeable bunch. Isreal knew 9/11 was coming, WE knew 9/11 was coming("Bin Laden determined to attack within the united states" pretty much summs it up.) This simply shows Isreal has very good intelligence.
The response to the buildings that fell? Countries fell. We even took out an extra one Just because we were angry. One was the wrong one. But we will clean them up.. put bandaids on them.. and then leave them. We really do not want to stay in that sandbox.


The IMs to Odiga mentioned the World Trade Center.

[quote}

History may show that when the USA reacts, it over reacts. We had a couple of buildings blown up, as a result we took part in blowing up a couple of countries. Before that Japan might have warned it was a bad idea to tick the USA off. We are a disorganized disagreeable bunch with each other on a good day. It is a bad idea to get us all ticked off at the same thing. It is hard to do, but it can be done. I do not advise it.

Is it right that the USA over reacts when it reacts? Nope. But it happens.
I expect the USA will be pretty quiet about Isreal. But if we get shoved into it, it could be ugly. For both ends.

So pray.. to whatever diety you wish.. that peaceful solutions can be worked out. There has been way too much killing already.


I suggest rather a just solution is required and the standard of justice has been established as the justice Jews demand from Germany over WWII.
-----
I find it odd people keep accusing me of not posting the truth when almost all my information about Israel comes from sources which are impeccably both Jewish and Israeli.


I find no sources "impeccable" Especially websites I have never heard of before.


Now you have heard of these two. www.jpost.com and www.haaretz.com They are impeccable in that they cannot be accused of being either antisemitic or anti-Israel and I do not accept Israel continually trying to hide behind antisemitism. Antisemitism can only apply when the so-called "hatred" and there is nothing wrong with anti-Israel when it is grounded in facts. The same goes for anti-Iran and anti-France.

I agree that a Just solution needs to be worked out. So instead of lumping USA and Isreal together.. WORK IT OUT. Both sides.
Because if the United States gets dragged into it.. We would probably be forced to pick both sides up and slap them silly. Is that really what you want to see?


It was not too many years after my birth that I realized this world does not really give a damn about what I want. However I have also learned my options go beyond false choices offered to me.

In lieu of having any power to change anything I simply do what I can by reciting the facts as they are available to anyone and to cut down propaganda which is created unrelated to the facts. Many do not like to read such things.

Such is politics.

Pallestine needs to stop lobbing in bombs and missles into isreal,


After the resistance movements during WWII it was enacted into the Geneva Conventions of which Israel is a party, that any and all occupied peoples may use any means including deadly force against their occupiers. For a fact the Palestinians have tried several times to initiate a truce with Israel and every time Israel has violated it. Whenever things get quiet Israel works hard to provoke violence so it can play the victim, like the rapist claiming he was slapped so he had to do it.

isreal needs to quit knocking down settlements.. and you all need to get a grip.


Israel must end the occupation. It is a priori a criminal occupation as it is in crimal violation of multiple sections of both the Hague V and Geneva IV convention.

We will not start it. But we will end it if we have to. Again.. I highly recommend you let us fight each other (Wacco/Oklahoma City/Rodney King... we have no shortage of small things to fight each other over..) Rather than getting us ALL angry at the same thing.

We hates being Annoyed.


Which to you apparently means silence in the face of Israeli propaganda (hasbara == isreality) and not correcting the flat out lies which pass for fact in the world.

This is a political newsgroup. This is a political issue.

The twin events of Israel's butchery in Gaza and the mass murders on Mamara and Iran's non-existent nuclear weapons program have been the top three items on the international agenda for the last year and a half and the first two almost derailed the third. So obviously the matter is timely. I am aware most Americans can't find America on a world map and could care less about international affairs save with Israel is a prayer issue between the talking in tongues and the snake handling.

However it is a topic of interest to those interested in international affairs and there is no reason to refrain from discussing it as it is.
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Message 1020011 - Posted: 27 Jul 2010, 7:42:56 UTC - in response to Message 1020001.  

"There was a poll taken back in the 1990s in the US among self-identified born again Christians on this subject. Some 60% self-identified as Christian Zionists. The spread of 40-60M depends upon the variation in the estimates of the number of born again Christians. Reciting what people call themselves, an indirect quote, cannot be considered improper. One may also consider Jerry Falwell knowledgeable on the subject."

As Christian, perhaps. As zionist? No. Again, it is considered a jab at Jewish. The Jewish and Christians might have some common beliefs, but they have some SEVERE differences.

I speak for, and against neither on their beliefs. Jerry Falwell was a self righteous self centered person, using religion as an excuse to exert power.
He pushed and to a measure changed the boundaries, and others pushed back.
Proclaiming himself head of the "Moral Majority", he was neither. Again..
good proof that we prefer to fight and argue amongst ourselves.

You sited no source for the article you included.. But by the terminology I am certain it is of Muslim sources. I have nothing nice to say about Jerry Falwell. But the article is extremely slanted. Not surprising.

Do they influence government? Yes, at times. Are they the government? No not at all. Are they usually successful? No. Just too often. Again, more stuff for the USA to argue about amongst ourselves. And we do.

McVeigh was not religiously motivated. He was a nutcase motivated on the government trampling on religious freedoms(his perception). The Branch Davidians were in his mind standing for freedom to bear arms. The government saw it differently. Again part of our internal battle to maintain balance.

Oh, and the "every sperm is sacred" song you refer to, was a poke at catholicism by british comedy troop "monty python" from the "meaning of life" movie. hardly a religious melody. But quite funny if you watch the video of it.

I understand your perspective about the Israel/Palestine Conflict. This is a conflict that has been going on for thousands of years. The original stance of palestine was to push isreal "into the sea" after the state was first created.
They defended themselves.. and pushed back. Hard. And the pushing and shoving contnues. Again I tell you.. You.. nor Isreal.. really want the USA involved in that. As I said.. we over react.

The problem is both you.. and the other side.. have some valid arguments. And both sides are ready to kill to support theirs. And until that changes..
We could try to broker a peace.. but either side will violate any agreement made. This can continue until no one is left. OR you can calm the hell down and work towards peaceful solutions.. that neither side is going to be very happy with. But those the most vocal.. Well you have your own Jerry Falwells to deal with. And they are very generous with your blood.

And yes.. this is a place for political discussion. But do not expect your "facts" from questionable sources to be unchallenged. We hear. We also know if shipments were coming into palestine unchecked, they would include arms. Medical supplies can often include biological/chemical agents. Always?
no of course not.

the USA has tried to peacefully mediate. This has resulted in breaches by both sides. So while we hear, and have some compassion for the situation.. it is getting to the point of..

YOU DESERVE EACH OTHER!!


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Message 1020081 - Posted: 27 Jul 2010, 12:40:42 UTC - in response to Message 1020011.  

"There was a poll taken back in the 1990s in the US among self-identified born again Christians on this subject. Some 60% self-identified as Christian Zionists. The spread of 40-60M depends upon the variation in the estimates of the number of born again Christians. Reciting what people call themselves, an indirect quote, cannot be considered improper. One may also consider Jerry Falwell knowledgeable on the subject."

As Christian, perhaps. As zionist? No. Again, it is considered a jab at Jewish. The Jewish and Christians might have some common beliefs, but they have some SEVERE differences.


Yes, there are differences in theory but in practice both are in support of the atrocities committed upon Palestinians. In this world practice is all that matters.

As to it being considered a "jab against Jewish" I have no idea what world you are talking about as Zionism is the rallying cry in Israel for all Jews. Israel's political leaders regularly claim to speak for all Jews and I have NEVER found any condemnation of that save from Naturei Karta which has been against Zionism as heresy for at least 80 years. There have been proposed laws in the Knesset that non-Jews must swear allegiance to the Jewish and Zionist state of Israel.

I have read Haaretz online at least six days a week for the last 12 years and since they started a headline edition seven days a week. I have never heard of zionist being considered less than an obligation for all right thinking Jews everywhere. I have no idea where you are getting your opinion that it is in any manner derogatory.

Perhaps you could give me a URL to such an opinion. And preferably in a legal sense as would be governed by the laws applicable in California which appears to be the hosting site.

Now I can agree that any moral person of any persuasion should be repelled by being associated with Zionism but in Israel for a Jew to be that way is considered self-hating and for a non-Jew to be that way is considered antisemitic.

Please give me a URL or three which reflects the reality in Israel which (falsely) claims to have the largest population of Jews in the world.

I speak for, and against neither on their beliefs. Jerry Falwell was a self righteous self centered person, using religion as an excuse to exert power.
He pushed and to a measure changed the boundaries, and others pushed back.
Proclaiming himself head of the "Moral Majority", he was neither. Again..
good proof that we prefer to fight and argue amongst ourselves.


Whatever he may have been the opinion survey was conducted independent of him. As I said, I made mention of him as a person presumed to be knowledgeable on the subject. You may not agree. I referred to a "60 Minutes" segment to show at least one major US media source, centered in NYC, considers him to be such.

You sited no source for the article you included.. But by the terminology I am certain it is of Muslim sources. I have nothing nice to say about Jerry Falwell. But the article is extremely slanted. Not surprising.


I could have faked it and made reference to 60 Minutes myself and leave it to the archivists at the network to have record of it. Further I introduced it after the false assertion I referred to all Christians when I did in fact make a reference to those of the redneck variety and made further reference to snake handling and speaking in tongues in the reply. You do not have to like it.

I learned the proper use of Zionist from reading ISRAELI news sources. If you disagree that is of course your prerogative. I see no point in devolving into a disagreement over trivia.

Do they influence government? Yes, at times. Are they the government? No not at all. Are they usually successful? No. Just too often. Again, more stuff for the USA to argue about amongst ourselves. And we do.


Of course they do not but they think they do. "We, the Jewish people control America and America knows it." Ariel Sharon as reported by Army radio in Israel and confirmed indirectly the Haaretz.

McVeigh was not religiously motivated. He was a nutcase motivated on the government trampling on religious freedoms(his perception). The Branch Davidians were in his mind standing for freedom to bear arms. The government saw it differently. Again part of our internal battle to maintain balance.


You are free to have your opinion and I am free to disagree.

Oh, and the "every sperm is sacred" song you refer to, was a poke at catholicism by british comedy troop "monty python" from the "meaning of life" movie. hardly a religious melody. But quite funny if you watch the video of it.


You think I did not know that?

I understand your perspective about the Israel/Palestine Conflict. This is a conflict that has been going on for thousands of years. The original stance of palestine was to push isreal "into the sea" after the state was first created.


That is the usual Hasbara, propaganda, Isreality. If in fact it has been going on for thousands of years then ALL the claims that Palestinians are "really" Arabs who came to enjoy the economic benefits of the Jews are lies. It means when Golda Meir famously announced, "There are no Palestinians," she was lying. It means when the mythical "philistines" really were Palestinians as Herodotus mentioned seven times while making no mention of any "judeans" even in his lists of those who practice male genital mutilation. It also means the sudden appearance of Judeans in history in the early-mid 1st c. BC is in fact when the Yahweh cult was established.

As to the "push into the sea" that is the one claim no Zionist or Israeli apologist has ever been able to support with physical evidence. Please feel free to be the first to do so. As eliminating Israel, Palestine was wiped off the map by Jews and no one misses it. I sincerely anyone will miss Israel should it succumb to the same fate it visited upon Palestine.

They defended themselves.. and pushed back. Hard. And the pushing and shoving contnues. Again I tell you.. You.. nor Isreal.. really want the USA involved in that. As I said.. we over react.


As I have documented elsewhere the expulsion of Palestinians by force including murder became Zionist policy after Jabotinsky's revisionist movement took over Zionism. It is obvious by inspection that without expulsion the first election would have ash-canned the entire Zionist Enterprise. Therefore, as ALL Israeli historians using Israeli records of 1948 have found and published, the expulsion was the original plan and intention and was carried out by the zionist terrorists.

The problem is both you.. and the other side.. have some valid arguments. And both sides are ready to kill to support theirs. And until that changes..


I have the side which does in fact recite the facts and only the facts. I can see the holy holocaust resulting in giving Bavaria to the Jews but not Palestine. But in Israel it is political heresy to suggest that WWII had anything to do with the founding of Israel as ALL credit has to go to the zionist enterprise and anything else is antisemitic.

We could try to broker a peace.. but either side will violate any agreement made. This can continue until no one is left. OR you can calm the hell down and work towards peaceful solutions.. that neither side is going to be very happy with. But those the most vocal.. Well you have your own Jerry Falwells to deal with. And they are very generous with your blood.


As I said, END THE OCCUPATION. That is really all Israel has to do. Justice for the Palestinians to the same standard that Israel demands for Jews from Germany. What could be more fair than that?

And yes.. this is a place for political discussion. But do not expect your "facts" from questionable sources to be unchallenged. We hear. We also know if shipments were coming into palestine unchecked, they would include arms. Medical supplies can often include biological/chemical agents. Always?
no of course not.


Anyone may question anyone's sources. As I have said my sources cannot be accused of being either anti-Israel or antisemitic as they are both Israeli and Jewish.

However I did not raise any issue regarding medical supplies. I raised the issue of schoolbooks, crayons, and toys which is clearly the collective punishment of children.

It is quite absurd to the point of laughable to claim medical supplies measured in milliliters can be biological or chemical weapons which are always required in quantities measured in thousands of liters. If you do not know that, research it. That is call Isreality, i.e. Hasbara. Do not try to lecture me on the subject with fantasies. Research it before you reply.

the USA has tried to peacefully mediate. This has resulted in breaches by both sides. So while we hear, and have some compassion for the situation.. it is getting to the point of..

YOU DESERVE EACH OTHER!!


Breeches by both sides, yes. The victim struck her rapist. The occupied people are on-going victims of jewish oppression. That is not in question.

Israel should simply end the occupation and cease committing war crimes which were found to be hanging offenses at Nuremberg.

Your apparent appeal to for equal treatment is what Gandhi referred to as requiring non-violence from both the rapist and the rapee. In it he said requiring non-violence from the rapee was not reasonable in that it was a token act which had to occur to avoid the accusation it was consensual. In Europe Kant referred to such actions a moral imperatives.

Resistance to Israel is a moral imperative as it is fundamentally an immoral enterprise. The perceived needs of one do not negate the rights of another.
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Message 1020095 - Posted: 27 Jul 2010, 13:48:50 UTC - in response to Message 1020081.  



I am saying if both sides do not work towards peace, there will be no peace.
If you make this decision, you guarantee the outcome.

"In 1890, Birnbaum coined the terms “Zionist” and “Zionism,” and, in 1892, “Political Zionism.” In 1893, he published a brochure entitled Die Nationale Wiedergeburt des Juedischen Volkes in seinem Lande als Mittel zur Loesung der Judenfrage (“The National Rebirth of the Jewish People in its Homeland as a Means of Solving the Jewish Question”), in which he expounded ideas similar to those that Herzl was to promote subsequently. "
(questionable source:

HERE{)

"The term "Zionism" itself is derived from the word Zion (Hebrew: ציון, Tzi-yon‎), referring to Jerusalem. The first use of the term is attributed to the Austrian Nathan Birnbaum, founder of the first nationalist Jewish students' movement Kadimah, in his journal Selbstemanzipation (Self Emancipation) in 1890.[9]"
)
Wikipedia

If you keep choosing to expand that to include every catholic, protestant, morman, jehovah's witness, and every other religion other than Judaism, then I am saying it is wrong, hate mongering, combative speech. Such as you have obviously been taught.

This is not one nation raping the other. This is two nations in a drunken bar room brawl that will never stop. And they keep swinging in anger at anyone that tries to break it up. You have chosen to continue. Do not ask sympathy from me. There are friends on both sides, but if either tries to help they are attacked by both fighters. So yes, in that respect they deserve each other.

If we get israel to pull back, the palestenians lob some rockets in. isreal comes back out. smashes buildings. Obviously both sides like it.

Israel is the Jewish state. They have defended their borders, which moved the borders. Is this a problem for Palestine? Of course. And the fighting continues.

The funny thing? In the USA about the only group that uses the term "Zionist" Is the American Nazi party, that has no use for any non-white. Therefore I will continue to challenge the term "Zionist" to lump Judaism and Christianity together. In fact I am neither, And have little use for Zealots and radicals.
As long as Palestine and Isreal keep pounding on each other.. The pain will continue. You have made your choice. Neither is going away, and neither will stop striking the other. And the blood continues to fly.

If you really wish the USA would get involved.. Well be careful what you wish for. But I still think you are better off letting us beat up each other.
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Message 1020107 - Posted: 27 Jul 2010, 14:22:29 UTC - in response to Message 1020095.  

can I get an AMEN brother!!


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Message 1020111 - Posted: 27 Jul 2010, 14:34:06 UTC

Well written Soft....


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Message 1020177 - Posted: 27 Jul 2010, 21:45:25 UTC
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i find it funny that usa is eager to meddle everywhere in middle east but in israel and saudi-arabia.
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Message 1020221 - Posted: 28 Jul 2010, 1:11:32 UTC - in response to Message 1019747.  
Last modified: 28 Jul 2010, 1:12:27 UTC

Matt,

In your worst of your rants, can you possibly defend this?


Iran stoning case woman fainted on hearing sentence, says cellmate

... The Guardian brought Mohammadi Ashtiani's plight to international attention on 3 July. Since then the case has drawn condemnation worldwide and a huge number of politicians, human rights activists and celebrities have joined the campaign for her release. In response, Iran has banned local media from reporting on the case. ...

... "In adultery cases, women are sentenced because of the complaints from their husbands or families generally, but surprisingly, Sakineh is sentenced to death by stoning not because the family of her husband have made a complaint against her, but because the Tabriz prosecutor has made a complaint. In other words, it's the authorities in Iran who want Sakineh to be stoned to death."

Ahadi, who is in regular contact with the families of women sentenced to stoning in Iran, has been told recently that Mariam Ghorbanzadeh, 25, a current cellmate of Mohammadi Ashtiani who has been sentenced to death by stoning, is pregnant. The sentence has not been changed.

After a short visit to his mother in prison last Thursday, Mohammadi Ashtiani's son Sajad told the Guardian that she fears she may be executed without prior notice to her lawyer...



"Shariah" looks to be just a lame excuse in the name of arbitrary 'religion' for arbitrary extremism and barbarity...


20 years ago one would not have expected a violent movement in Israel to establish Torah law in the country. Between the two, Shariah is much more civilized.

Yep Afghanistan worked so well under that. No Women in Public without a male relative. No womens education.
Adultery- the man was seduced, the woman gets stoned to death. ...

Still very nasty. This is happening NOW!

Avaaz: Stop Stoning!

Last week a massive global outcry stopped an Iranian woman, Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani, from being stoned to death.

But Sakineh still faces hanging, and today, fifteen more people await execution by stoning -- people are buried up to their necks and large rocks are hurled at their heads. ...



All for just showing too much ankle?



We all may yet help...

Education would be an even bigger help.

Regards,
Martin
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Message 1020288 - Posted: 28 Jul 2010, 6:33:44 UTC - in response to Message 1020095.  

I am saying if both sides do not work towards peace, there will be no peace. If you make this decision, you guarantee the outcome.


And the decision to go to Palestine and expel the native population guaranteed today's outcome as the best possible result.
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Message 1020290 - Posted: 28 Jul 2010, 6:59:10 UTC - in response to Message 1020288.  

It is a blockade. It is war. It is what you wanted. Do not worry, it will get worse again.
Janice
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