The Massacre of the Gaza Aid Flotilla

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Message 1000267 - Posted: 3 Jun 2010, 8:45:14 UTC
Last modified: 3 Jun 2010, 8:48:02 UTC

Are the Palestinians not allowed to bear arms, as is the rest of the world?
I guess not. It's easier to deny them weapons, so they have to resort to the last resort, suicide bombings. Makes them look all terrorist like then, doesn't it?

And a couple of links to those filmed reports would be handy too. As they say, seeing is believing.
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Message 1000275 - Posted: 3 Jun 2010, 9:09:19 UTC

I have a lot of articles published in Israel by Israeli newspapers. Haaretz is the oldest Hebrew language newspaper in Palestine.

This is but one report of the arbitrary and capricious list of things forbidden -- under pain of death we have learned -- to introduce into Gaza.

Haaretz.com

Tue., March 30, 2010 Nisan 15, 5770 | Israel Time: 05:30 (EST+7)

Last update - 17:38 29/03/2010

Israel allows clothes, shoes into blockaded Gaza for first time

By Reuters

Israel will allow a shipment of clothes and shoes to be delivered to
Palestinians in the Gaza Strip for the first time in its almost
three-year-old tight blockade of the enclave, Palestinian officials said on
Monday.

They said the first 10 truckloads would be arriving via the
Israeli-controlled Gaza border point on Thursday.

Israel is under international pressure to relax its blockade, which the
United Nations says punishes Gaza's 1.5 million people over their leaders -
the Islamist group Hamas, considered by Israel and others a terrorist
organization.

Israel prohibits shipments of cement and steel to Gaza on the grounds that
Hamas could use them for military purposes.

Its long list of controlled goods also includes items that critics say have
no apparent military value, such as children's crayons and books.

Gaza has been getting most of its consumer goods via tunnels from
neighboring Egypt, operated by smugglers who add on hefty surcharges. Gaza
merchants said 10 truckloads would not fill their stocks and demanded that
Israel release goods long held in its sea ports.

Egypt is building an underground wall to block the tunnels, which have been
frequently bombed by the Israeli air forces since Israel's offensive against
Hamas 14 months ago in which some 1,400 Palestinians and 13 Israelis were
killed.

=====

Lets see. 10 truckloads for 1.5 million people after three years. That's what you call humanitarian.

For the record these shipments had been held by Israel and the merchants had to pay the storage fees to the Israelis who owned the warehouses. So the idea of a smuggler surcharge can be put in perspective. Add to that the loss from the purchase price having been tied up in unreceived goods and it is sort of surprising they can be sold at any price given the costs accruing to them because of shoes and clothes pose an EXISTENTIAL threat to Israel.

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Message 1000280 - Posted: 3 Jun 2010, 9:34:40 UTC - in response to Message 1000263.  

Having read a lot of news reports on this incident, I have come to the conclusion that Israel is NOT at fault.

My reasons,


At this point I expected some sort of legalism which authorized Israel to use deadly force to take over a ship in international waters. I must say I am disappointed.

Recent filmed reports from inside Gaza indicate the markets are not short of food or any other essentials,


Please tell me how that justifies Israel's absolute control over they amount and type of food which is let into Gaza.

Other convoys have had no problems co-operating with the Israel authorities and driving into Gaza,


Please tell me why the people of Gaza must be subservient to their Israeli masters in the matter of what they are permitted to have.

The Turkish Charity IHH which organised this effort has been linked frequently with extremist militant Arab groups.


I have read that claim also but in fact I have read no evidence at all of the claim. I have also read of a connection to Al Qaeda in 1990 but the CIA was also connected to Al Qaeda in 1990.

If Israel does lift the blockade of the Gaza coastline. Who is going to police it to ensure no weapons are taken into Gaza?


What does Israel's boarding of a ship in international waters whose cargo was loaded in broad daylight in countries which would never permit private purchases of arms have to do with stopping weapons from entering Gaza? Please be specific in your response.

And since people like the Cuban Missile Crisis analogy so much, Kennedy and Khrushchev agree that Russia could supply all the defensive weapons to Cube that it wished. It would appear that is also a reasonable status for Gaza -- all the defensive weapons it can get. And the US agreed it would not invade Cuba which appears to be a reasonable obligation upon Israel.

=====

For the record: In the years when Gazans fired some 3000 rockets into Israel and killed exactly one person Israel attacked and killed some 800+ Gazans. The last "no rocket fire" agreement was broken by Israel. Israel does not deny a word of this. As for the most common target, Sderot, 20% of the population were military personnel and therefore lawful targets.

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Message 1000281 - Posted: 3 Jun 2010, 9:42:37 UTC - in response to Message 1000267.  

Are the Palestinians not allowed to bear arms, as is the rest of the world?
I guess not. It's easier to deny them weapons, so they have to resort to the last resort, suicide bombings. Makes them look all terrorist like then, doesn't it?

And a couple of links to those filmed reports would be handy too. As they say, seeing is believing.


You ask a good question and you would never believe the answer unless you are familiar with the hysterical superstition the Jews substitute for rational thought in Israel. Just pay attention to Israel and you realize the idea that Jews are more intelligent is a racist myth.

Israel has said that any future independent Palestine must be demilitarized, have no control over it borders or radio frequency allocation. Why? Because it they did they would be an existential threat to Israel. So if this future Palestine were the same as Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt it would be entirely different from them. Maybe becoming an Israeli makes Jews stupid.

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Message 1000282 - Posted: 3 Jun 2010, 9:46:42 UTC

The elite naval commandos were sent to board the Turkish ship armed with paintball guns.

What idiot made that decision? Is this a joke? Are we supposed to believe that crap?

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Message 1000284 - Posted: 3 Jun 2010, 9:50:47 UTC

Dude, those paint ball guns are lethal!!! Look at the death toll from the event.

But i guess we can blame the terrorists on board. They all shot themselves in protest.
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Message 1000286 - Posted: 3 Jun 2010, 10:08:53 UTC - in response to Message 1000284.  

Dude, those paint ball guns are lethal!!! Look at the death toll from the event.

But i guess we can blame the terrorists on board. They all shot themselves in protest.


We have to believe it. Jews said it. Failure to believe in antisemitic. And if you are antisemitic you might say the Red Sea did not part and then where will we be?

If the Somali pirates used paintball guns think of the carnage.

Consider the response of the listener. Paintball guns? That is so absurd, so ridiculous, it has to be true. Hitler did once lament not having Jews on his propaganda team as they were so good at the big lie. But that is another story.
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Message 1000290 - Posted: 3 Jun 2010, 10:26:37 UTC

The elite naval commandos were sent to board the Turkish ship armed with paintball guns.

What idiot made that decision? Is this a joke? Are we supposed to believe that crap?


Give it a couple of days to a week. They need to hire a sound stage and a director to get the footage in order.
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Message 1000294 - Posted: 3 Jun 2010, 10:55:44 UTC - in response to Message 1000290.  

The elite naval commandos were sent to board the Turkish ship armed with paintball guns.

What idiot made that decision? Is this a joke? Are we supposed to believe that crap?


Give it a couple of days to a week. They need to hire a sound stage and a director to get the footage in order.


No. It is not that hard or time consuming at all. People will look at a picture and believe the caption. People will look at a video clip and believe the voiceover. I have seen it all my life. I have tested it creating my own captions and voiceovers and people believe what they are told instead of their own lying eyes.

All these Israeli videos show passengers repelling boarders and my question was only did the captain request/commandeer their assistance as is his authority under maritime law. But Israel says it shows Jews being attacked so that is what people say it is. They believe what they are told it is rather than their own lying eyes.

The techniques of propaganda are very well known and available to anyone who does even a little bit of research. I cannot consider anyone educated in modern culture who cannot recognize them. I therefore have to assume the educated participants here are participating in the propaganda and know full well they are spouting bullshit.

=====

For the record, ever since I heard the BBC Ashes to Ashes having no problem with the term bullshit I realized the US morality patrol would choose to look like idiots for censoring the word. When they do, think fools.

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Message 1000300 - Posted: 3 Jun 2010, 11:33:33 UTC
Last modified: 3 Jun 2010, 11:34:02 UTC

I think i'll have to defend the IDF forces involved in this illegal raid though.

Considering they didn't have bulldozers to run the people over, or their lack of artillery support to use white phosphorous, this was probably the soldiers' first encounter with an 'armed' opponent.

The IDF commandos would have literally shite themselves and 'opened up' with their paintball guns. You have to remember, Israel's blockade of Gaza must be working, they say it is. The IDF forces wouldn't have encountered weapons in combat before.
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Message 1000352 - Posted: 3 Jun 2010, 15:53:07 UTC
Last modified: 3 Jun 2010, 15:54:10 UTC

Dude, those paint ball guns are lethal!!! Look at the death toll from the event



they had been instructed by the flotilla commander to refrain from using their sidearms unless their lives were at risk. <...>
Fearing for their lives, the soldiers asked and received permission to open fire, first taking aim at the activists’ feet.


That's possible.
Our spec ops soldiers also using not paintball but rubber bullet rifles when it's need to be no victums. But they always equpped with secondary weapon loaded with combat bullets.
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Message 1000363 - Posted: 3 Jun 2010, 16:52:08 UTC - in response to Message 1000267.  

Are the Palestinians not allowed to bear arms, as is the rest of the world?
I guess not. It's easier to deny them weapons, so they have to resort to the last resort, suicide bombings. Makes them look all terrorist like then, doesn't it?

And a couple of links to those filmed reports would be handy too. As they say, seeing is believing.

Fayvitt, your question angers me. Criminals who use weapons to do their crimes forfeit their right to bear arms. Hamas in Gaza is not being allowed to import arms that they would fire at Israel. They have done this in the past, over and over again, and the current Israeli response is a blockade. To be effective at finding arms, a blockade has to check all goods, even what are claimed to be "humanitarian" shipments (even you should understand that illegal weapons can be hidden in "humanitarian" cargo).

The blockade works. Rocket attacks from Gaza are way down. The alternative to the blockade is sending in military forces to destroy the arms, which was done in the past and caused casualties to both the Israelis and the Palistinians.
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Message 1000371 - Posted: 3 Jun 2010, 17:12:27 UTC
Last modified: 3 Jun 2010, 17:18:01 UTC

Well, Liam. Or whatever. Your blind stupidity angers me. Israel has run rampant over the Palestinian people ever since 1948, when they were first given military hardware such as tanks. They TERRORIZED the local populations and went on a killing rampage. Massacres such as Deir Yassin.

Israel has been terrorizig Palestinians for over 60 years, and you're angry? You? Angry?

How'd you feel if Russia (example) forcibly moved US citizens to maybe 1/2 of your country, and settled Iraqis (example) in the other half? Took all your weapons, and armed the Iraqis to the teeth? Then sat idly by and watched them do freely with you as they will?

That is a deadset fair example of what happened to the Palestinian people.

And you're angry? Get a grip on yourself.

Edit: Removed insult + Israel should be begging Palestinians for forgiveness for the 60 years of atrocities committed against them.
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Message 1000373 - Posted: 3 Jun 2010, 17:22:16 UTC

And what is the IDF's code of ethics?

"Purity of Arms" (Morality in Warfare) - The soldier shall make use of his weaponry and power only for the fulfillment of the mission and solely to the extent required; he will maintain his humanity even in combat. The soldier shall not employ his weaponry and power in order to harm non-combatants or prisoners of war, and shall do all he can to avoid harming their lives, body, honor and property.

That is broken every time Israel goes on a rampage. Every time.
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Message 1000403 - Posted: 3 Jun 2010, 19:50:11 UTC - in response to Message 1000371.  

Well, Liam. Or whatever. Your blind stupidity angers me. Israel has run rampant over the Palestinian people ever since 1948, when they were first given military hardware such as tanks. They TERRORIZED the local populations and went on a killing rampage. Massacres such as Deir Yassin.

Israel has been terrorizig Palestinians for over 60 years, and you're angry? You? Angry?

How'd you feel if Russia (example) forcibly moved US citizens to maybe 1/2 of your country, and settled Iraqis (example) in the other half? Took all your weapons, and armed the Iraqis to the teeth? Then sat idly by and watched them do freely with you as they will?

That is a deadset fair example of what happened to the Palestinian people.

And you're angry? Get a grip on yourself.

Edit: Removed insult + Israel should be begging Palestinians for forgiveness for the 60 years of atrocities committed against them.

You have left out some important facts, obviously because if you acknowledge the full history of the region it would show you to be the biased fool that you are. Israel was formed by international consensus after World War II and for more than 5 decades it has been attacked by its neighbors. But that is irrelevant to the situation at hand. This blockade is meant to prevent the murder of Israeli citizens by illegal rocket attacks fired from Gaza. Israel has the right to defend itself, no matter how irrational your sympathies toward the Hamas terrorists.

My post that upset your poor sensitive brain was correct. Your post that countries should have the right to arm themselves is nullified by the illegal use of those arms to murder and maim innocent civilians.

<Plonk>
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Message 1000414 - Posted: 3 Jun 2010, 20:47:19 UTC

I think Israel just showed that it is not a failed state.
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Message 1000445 - Posted: 3 Jun 2010, 22:50:34 UTC - in response to Message 1000403.  
Last modified: 3 Jun 2010, 22:51:58 UTC

Well, Liam. Or whatever. Your blind stupidity angers me. Israel has run rampant over the Palestinian people ever since 1948, when they were first given military hardware such as tanks. They TERRORIZED the local populations and went on a killing rampage. Massacres such as Deir Yassin.

Israel has been terrorizig Palestinians for over 60 years, and you're angry? You? Angry?

How'd you feel if Russia (example) forcibly moved US citizens to maybe 1/2 of your country, and settled Iraqis (example) in the other half? Took all your weapons, and armed the Iraqis to the teeth? Then sat idly by and watched them do freely with you as they will?

That is a deadset fair example of what happened to the Palestinian people.

And you're angry? Get a grip on yourself.

Edit: Removed insult + Israel should be begging Palestinians for forgiveness for the 60 years of atrocities committed against them.

You have left out some important facts, obviously because if you acknowledge the full history of the region it would show you to be the biased fool that you are. Israel was formed by international consensus after World War II and for more than 5 decades it has been attacked by its neighbors. But that is irrelevant to the situation at hand. This blockade is meant to prevent the murder of Israeli citizens by illegal rocket attacks fired from Gaza. Israel has the right to defend itself, no matter how irrational your sympathies toward the Hamas terrorists.

My post that upset your poor sensitive brain was correct. Your post that countries should have the right to arm themselves is nullified by the illegal use of those arms to murder and maim innocent civilians.

<Plonk>



Formed by "international consensus"? What about the bombing of the St Davids Hotel? An 'accident' involving people who've been senior politicians in Israel for decades, perhaps? Illegal use of arms to murder and maim innocent civilians.... please explain how Israel has NOT done this. How about 'ethnic cleansing' as per Israeli bull-dozers? Paint-ball guns? Over the years, the Soviets made some very odd looking and very effective weapons; Israel does have quite a large armaments industry. There is also, the deliberate killing of a UK citizen, some years ago, from Devon, who was trying to protect children. There is a rather high incidence of children killed by Israeli forces. Just how many 'wrongs' does it take, before you will admit that Israeli 'policy' is wrong? I dread to think how many it would take, before the Israeli 'government' admitted that!
Don't take life too seriously, as you'll never come out of it alive!
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Message 1000453 - Posted: 3 Jun 2010, 23:15:05 UTC - in response to Message 1000300.  

I think i'll have to defend the IDF forces involved in this illegal raid though.

Considering they didn't have bulldozers to run the people over, or their lack of artillery support to use white phosphorous, this was probably the soldiers' first encounter with an 'armed' opponent.

The IDF commandos would have literally shite themselves and 'opened up' with their paintball guns. You have to remember, Israel's blockade of Gaza must be working, they say it is. The IDF forces wouldn't have encountered weapons in combat before.


You have to keep in mind they have been garrison troopers in the occupied territories for decades. It was bad enough in 73 when they had to go running to Nixon to get a ceasefire. Then a few years ago in Lebanon Hezbollah kicked their asses back into bibleland. And then 16 months ago they stormed around in Gaza, murdered 1200 people and got nothing but bad press for their efforts.
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Message 1000456 - Posted: 3 Jun 2010, 23:27:57 UTC - in response to Message 1000352.  

they had been instructed by the flotilla commander to refrain from using their sidearms unless their lives were at risk. <...>
Fearing for their lives, the soldiers asked and received permission to open fire, first taking aim at the activists’ feet.


Except that the reports are of head shots. NBC reported the American who was murdered had four bullets in the head and one in the chest. Clearly they were not shooting at anyone's feet.

While some may consider these folks to have the sharpshooting powers of Roy Rogers and Gene Autrey, this does not suggest either handguns or hurried shooting. The multiple head shots indicates the charming Jewish custom of confirming the kill -- a few extra shots to make sure they are dead.

A head shot itself reminds us of the design problem with IDF weapons. They have a tendency to accidentally discharge and after discharge travel a hundred or more yards to go through a schoolroom window and hit a child in the head. I understand their weapons engineers are working night and day to correct this problem.

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Message 1000460 - Posted: 3 Jun 2010, 23:42:25 UTC - in response to Message 1000363.  

Fayvitt, your question angers me. Criminals who use weapons to do their crimes forfeit their right to bear arms. Hamas in Gaza is not being allowed to import arms that they would fire at Israel. They have done this in the past, over and over again, and the current Israeli response is a blockade. To be effective at finding arms, a blockade has to check all goods, even what are claimed to be "humanitarian" shipments (even you should understand that illegal weapons can be hidden in "humanitarian" cargo).

The blockade works. Rocket attacks from Gaza are way down. The alternative to the blockade is sending in military forces to destroy the arms, which was done in the past and caused casualties to both the Israelis and the Palistinians.


Unlike you, I am not angered at your post. I am rather confused. I am confused as to how you can possibly confound this group of people with criminals and gun runners. Are crutches lethal weapons? The wheelchairs did not appear to be armored. So far Israel has made no claim there were any weapons at all.

Israelis may be so abysmally retarded that they cannot tell the difference between these people and gunrunners but certainly we can tell the difference can we not?

But as in the Cuban Missile Crisis inspections can be conducted at sea. As to entering Gaza, the Israeli dead were own goals. The 1200 Palestinians for 1 Israeli was an atrocity in the same vein as 1200 Poles being killed in reprisal for the assassination of General Heydrich.
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