in these same message boards people were willing to chance laws in usa to allow
more oil drilling in coastal area, just because the prize on gas was high, and
they wanted to be less depended of imported oil.
and the matter of damage to the environment was denied absolutely.
anyone remember?

Could someone try to explain to me again why we can not afford to convert to solar and wind? For some reason.. I still do not quite get it.....

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Janice

because windmill in top of your car will tip it off the balance.

Could someone try to explain to me again why we can not afford to convert to solar and wind? For some reason.. I still do not quite get it.....

My opinion.

This country is run by the government and corporations (not necessarily in that order). Their respective "horizons" for the future are focused no further out than the next election and the next quarterly earnings report. With such myopic thinking, cheap and easy will always prevail over expensive and difficult.

---

Join the PACK!

The simple facts are that even though the raw source of the energy is 100% free, it still costs much more to provide energy (electricity) this way compared to coal, oil, gas and nuclear which we predominately use now. Solar energy doesn't work at night and wind energy requires the wind to blow. Cost is important since our economy was largely based in the past on cheap and abundant energy. Some people say that 20% of American jobs are based on the auto industry. The love affair with autos dies a hard death at $4.00 per gallon gas. Cheap electricity could change this with a strong push to electric commuter cars--but not at 20 cents per kilowatt hour.

The energy for electric cars will still come in the short run from predominately coal fired plants. China has a few dozen nuclear plants underway and more than 100 in the planning stage. This is CHINA for heaven sakes--The French are 80% nuclear. We sit on our hands and can't figure out a way to efficiently site and cost effectively build these plants ourselves.

We can't change our energy structure without political will. The economic incentives are not there right now and we bind ourselves in red tape and tolerate environmental crazies. So in a sense the MARKET dictates our energy mix. The Market is both financial and political in nature and we deserve more enlightened politicians as far as energy is concerned.

Nuclear is the most promising alternative. Incentives to change energy infrastructure from our Government are thinly disguised efforts to raise taxes. Also I suspect that most people don't take the threat of Carbon seriously enough to say "OK let's double my electric bill". I am one of these people. Solar and wind? does it work, will it cut my energy bill in half?--- then I'm all for them. Until then I will achieve this through conservation, insulation and more efficient HVAC.


Nobody wants a windmill in their back yard and no-one wants to store energy by pumping water uphill so that we can have energy by Hydro at night when the wind blows very little and solar works not at all.

We tolerate 10% non combustion energy and 10% ethanol in our tanks but this just runs up the cost of electricity and motor fuel while wasting tax dollars on misguided subsidies.

About TWO MONTHS later, why are BP and the USA STILL allowing so much oil to be released into the gulf?


The collection cap on top of the failed faulty BOP has been shown to work.

Why, after over a month, are not the collection rig and tankers in place at the surface to collect ALL of the gushing oil?


My suspicions a very darkly dire...

Regards,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

The simple facts are that even though the raw source of the energy is 100% free, it still costs much more to provide energy (electricity) this way compared to coal, oil, gas and nuclear which we predominately use now. Solar energy doesn't work at night and wind energy requires the wind to blow. Cost is important since our economy was largely based in the past on cheap and abundant energy. Some people say that 20% of American jobs are based on the auto industry. The love affair with autos dies a hard death at $4.00 per gallon gas. Cheap electricity could change this with a strong push to electric commuter cars--but not at 20 cents per kilowatt hour.

The energy for electric cars will still come in the short run from predominately coal fired plants. China has a few dozen nuclear plants underway and more than 100 in the planning stage. This is CHINA for heaven sakes--The French are 80% nuclear. We sit on our hands and can't figure out a way to efficiently site and cost effectively build these plants ourselves.

We can't change our energy structure without political will. The economic incentives are not there right now and we bind ourselves in red tape and tolerate environmental crazies. So in a sense the MARKET dictates our energy mix. The Market is both financial and political in nature and we deserve more enlightened politicians as far as energy is concerned.

Nuclear is the most promising alternative. Incentives to change energy infrastructure from our Government are thinly disguised efforts to raise taxes. Also I suspect that most people don't take the threat of Carbon seriously enough to say "OK let's double my electric bill". I am one of these people. Solar and wind? does it work, will it cut my energy bill in half?--- then I'm all for them. Until then I will achieve this through conservation, insulation and more efficient HVAC.


Nobody wants a windmill in their back yard and no-one wants to store energy by pumping water uphill so that we can have energy by Hydro at night when the wind blows very little and solar works not at all.

We tolerate 10% non combustion energy and 10% ethanol in our tanks but this just runs up the cost of electricity and motor fuel while wasting tax dollars on misguided subsidies.

Charge BP for every dead fish, every closed resort, every failed business, and the 100% of removing every last drop of oil. Charge full prices on leases, to repair the wetlands they have dredged to put in pipes and destroyed. Charge all the oil/coal companies to absolutely clean every last bit of pollution added to our rivers and ground waters. Charge them the full costs of every indirect medical case compounded by any of these things. Charge them the full cost of replanting every forest destroyed, every field contaminated.

And then tell me that around $2.00 per watt is too expensive for solar capacity. Tell me we can not store energy in plug in hybrids, tell me we can not store energy by heat and steam generate as needed. Tell me that even though wind capacity is the cheapest to add that a windmill is more an eyesore than dead oceans.

Tell me. I will not believe you but tell me anyway. I just wish I could laugh at it any more.

---

Janice

Well stated

---

I do not fight fascists because I think I can win.
I fight them because they are fascists.
Chris Hedges

A riot is the language of the unheard. -Martin Luther King, Jr.

Have you ordered your Nissan Leaf yet? Are you planning to drop off of the Grid with a large solar array on your roof. Post the details of your plan and the suppliers. I want to know how it works out for you. I have been involved in energy economics professionally and domestically for many years and I am interested in doing these things myself. I may be missing the boat in my belief that any system that I design to do these things might work but put me into bankruptcy and fill my basement with batteries.

I would like to see how my capacities line up with the needs of your household, commute, climate and the dollars involved. I have 800 amps service into my home and spend about 150 dollars a month on gasoline. Right now electricity is 8 cents per kilowatt hour and and natural gas is about 1.00 per therm. so my total expenditure for energy is just over $5000 per year. I can borrow money at 8.5% and expect to live another 20 years or so.

My furnaces total 300,000 btu/hr output and are 95 % efficient. My air conditioners total 125,000 btus /hour and average around 250% efficient.
Nissan leaf has 24 kilowatt hr battery and costs somewhere around 25,000 dollars after tax incentives. Gasoline now at $2.57 per US gallon.
I currently drive 10,000 miles per year of which about 60% would fit the range of the leaf.

How do these numbers line up with your situation? I live in Tennessee and have somewhat mild winters and rather hot summers. However, I do need the full output of my HVAC systems during the extremes that we do have in summer and winter. Nashville has 3500 heating degree days and the cost of installing heat pumps so I could heat with electricity instead of gas would be in the $30,000 dollar range.

I do have 3 heatalator fire places which can deliver 50,000 btus/hr burning wood which is $125 per rick--figure 13 million btu per rick. They each run a quarter horsepower fan. Based on your plans do you have some advice on how i should proceed?

Have you ordered your Nissan Leaf yet? Are you planning to drop off of the Grid with a large solar array on your roof. Post the details of your plan and the suppliers. I want to know how it works out for you. I have been involved in energy economics professionally and domestically for many years and I am interested in doing these things myself. I may be missing the boat in my belief that any system that I design to do these things might work but put me into bankruptcy and fill my basement with batteries.

I would like to see how my capacities line up with the needs of your household, commute, climate and the dollars involved. I have 800 amps service into my home and spend about 150 dollars a month on gasoline. Right now electricity is 8 cents per kilowatt hour and and natural gas is about 1.00 per therm. so my total expenditure for energy is just over $5000 per year. I can borrow money at 8.5% and expect to live another 20 years or so.

My furnaces total 300,000 btu/hr output and are 95 % efficient. My air conditioners total 125,000 btus /hour and average around 250% efficient.
Nissan leaf has 24 kilowatt hr battery and costs somewhere around 25,000 dollars after tax incentives. Gasoline now at $2.57 per US gallon.
I currently drive 10,000 miles per year of which about 60% would fit the range of the leaf.

How do these numbers line up with your situation? I live in Tennessee and have somewhat mild winters and rather hot summers. However, I do need the full output of my HVAC systems during the extremes that we do have in summer and winter. Nashville has 3500 heating degree days and the cost of installing heat pumps so I could heat with electricity instead of gas would be in the $30,000 dollar range.

I do have 3 heatalator fire places which can deliver 50,000 btus/hr burning wood which is $125 per rick--figure 13 million btu per rick. They each run a quarter horsepower fan. Based on your plans do you have some advice on how i should proceed?

What I am doing is limited. Due to contractors being unable to save a house I purchased, I am a proud owner of a vacant lot. Without the capital to rebuild.
When I do.. some solar or a small wind turbine, well insulated will be in order.

For any system unless you are completely isolated, forget about the batteries.
Think Grid connected inverters to where you can "sell back" unused energy. Those times of day/the year that produce the most energy tend to line up with "peak useage" periods, when demands are greatest. This not only is good for you, your neighbors, the grid, but also saves a fortune worth of batteries.

If you put a plug in hybrid/electric in your garage, you can further help balance the grids needs with as little as 10% of the charge capacity.

I did go shopping and picked up some TSLA(Tesla Motors Inc) when it went on sale yesterday, which I did add to an extensive alt energy portion of my portfolio. A Plug in hybrid would well suit my needs when I can afford a new vehicle. And 350+ days a year plug in would handle all my needs. In the mean time that poor old escort keeps getting 30+ mpg. Still a drain... but on fixed income the hybrids/electrics will be a while trickling down to me.

There is no such thing as a 250% energy efficient anything. But it is possible to have a fossil fuel free everything. And this is the direction we need to go.

This is one of many sources

How they might best fit your needs... The answer is in your hands. It is possible to do things even cheaper with a bit of creativity.

---

Janice

The simple fact of the matter is that screaming for 'BP' to pay for this and pay for that is a moot point.
BECAUSE....
You know who is really gonna pay for it all.....YOU AND I, and everybody who buys the product they produce. Where do you think BP's money comes from?
The only thing that should be done would be to eliminate all dividends to stockholders, so all profits they do make are put back into cleanup and restitution to those directly harmed.

And criminal prosecution of those who made the irresponsible, profit driven decisions that led to this disaster. More evidence comes to light every day that if certain warnings were heeded, and certain procedures were followed instead of taking shortcuts in the name of profits....the destruction of this well may have been totally avoidable. And THAT must be punished.

Of course, that punishment must go up to the levels of government that we, the people, entrusted to oversee the energy industry. Who, instead of making sure that we were safeguarded, gave a blind eye and a wink to them whilst keeping their back pockets open to accept the millions of dollars that the industry pours into their coffers.

---

"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

Amongst the many trying to clean up some of the BP reckless mess:


Sea Shepherd - Operation Gulf Rescue Ramps Up

... Sea Shepherd is also currently preparing a large vessel in Europe to serve as a floating support facility for authorized, qualified experts working to rescue and protect wildlife and habitat in the Gulf. Veterinarians, scientists, researchers, and highly qualified oiled wildlife rescue experts will join our ship in the Gulf, and Sea Shepherd will also have qualified personnel available to assist with construction, transportation, and other needs. The Sea Shepherd floating Wildlife Care Center will be available to assist all authorized operations.

We need the help of Sea Shepherd’s amazing supporters once again. We need you to urge the U.S. government to use everything at its disposal to help clean up the Gulf and to rescue the animals. Sea Shepherd needs funds for Operation Gulf Rescue. We will be in the Gulf for as long as we are able, and we need help with equipping and fueling our ship, training our volunteer crews, making regular surveys of the affected areas by air, sea, and land, and we need to keep appropriate pressure on BP and all authorized agencies to accept our and other help from the public sector. We can't do any of this without your continued help.


It's our only planet,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Thank you for your reply.

let me enlighten you about the efficiency of Air Conditioning. It is true that no CLOSED process or system can be 100% efficient. However Air Conditioning is not a closed process. You are merely pumping BTU's into and out of the environment.

For instance if you went out and bought 30 big blocks of ice and carried them into your house you would get 12,000 btu worth of cooling for each ton of ice that you brought in. The energy expended in doing this would be a few calories that you burned ( 1 Calorie = roughly 4 btus). So your efficiency for this operation is quite high indeed. So you see, this is not a closed system. Someone else expended the energy to create that ice.

It's the same in Air conditioning or heating with a Heat Pump. The enviroment is providing the extra BTU's--you are merely pumping these BTU's into or out of you house, In Air conditioning you compress a gas into a fluid -it gets very hot when you do this. The hot liquid is then pumped outside your house where it expands into a coil that has a fan blowing through it-as a result you are dumping this heat out into the atmosphere.

When you are heating with a heat pump the process reverses you take heat from the atmosphere and pump it into your house.The source of the extra energy here is the sun.

The EER ratio or rating on an Air Conditioner is nothing more than the ratio of how many BTU worth of cooling you get for each Watt hour put into the system.

Since A Watt hour is equal to 3.5 BTU's an efficiency rating of , say, 12 would be amore than 300% efficient. Same for Heating; the SEER rating on a heat pump works the same way.

My new Air Conditioner has a rating of 12 my two older ones about 10.5.

Ratings of 16 are available now --they are much more expensive that a 12 or 14 but i think that they could be made a building code standard for new and replacements--the initial extra cost will eventually be paid back especially if we allow 20 cent per kilowatt hour electricity to enter the grid.

22 years ago TVA electricity here in Tennessee was 4.6 cents it is now double this and will soon enough be 10 cents and more. This 10 cent figure is equivalent to very roughly $4.00per gallon Gasoline . It will sink Electric plug in cars if it gets any higher .

We need 5 cent night time electricity to power these vehicles. Night Time electricity will not come from solar. I say this because I can buy a new Nissan Versa for $10,000, some $15,000 or so less than any proposed electric car.

So you see, conversion away from the current mix of energy supply has to be carefully done with Political and economic savvy or else we will all be without toes from having shot ourselves in our collective foot.

Another good rant by Daddio