Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects, Environment, etc part II

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Message 1170197 - Posted: 11 Nov 2011, 19:25:38 UTC - in response to Message 1169777.  
Last modified: 11 Nov 2011, 19:26:18 UTC

... Let me correct that sentence for you:


"A few people whom have taken some data gathered scientificaly are on a crusade..."



(I make no claims about the accuracy of the data gathered. Science cannot crusade. People who happen to be scientists can crusade and claim it to be in the name of science, but science itself cannot crusade. Please don't confuse an inanimate, apolitical methodology with the people who are the exact opposite.)


A more appropriate description would be to say that "A few people whom have taken someone else's scientifically gathered data are on a crusade...".

There's an important distinction there...


Also note:


Climate scepticism rare in developing nation media

... Climate sceptics have gained a significant foothold in right-leaning U.S. and U.K. print media but are virtually absent in news reports in key developing world nations such as China, India and Brazil, a new Oxford University study shows.

That’s in part because fossil-fuel lobby groups are weaker in many of those countries, and homegrown climate skeptics simply fewer. But it’s also because many developing countries have more first-hand experience with the impacts of climate change...

... In Brazil, ... many leading newspapers have well-trained teams of science journalists, “climate skepticism is hardly present” in the media, the report said.

And in India, ... the country’s media spend little time questioning climate science, focusing instead on how the need to address climate change might impact development, and who should pay the price, the report said.

That’s in stark contrast to the United States, where a powerful fossil fuel industry funds climate sceptic organizations, and a journalistic culture of seeking “balance” in stories drives reporters to seek opposing views, even if they are less well-founded in science. ...



Confused?

This is our only one planet,
Martin
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Message 1170199 - Posted: 11 Nov 2011, 19:32:48 UTC - in response to Message 1169764.  

I'm sorry, but that reply is non-responsive to my reply.

But I understand you have your beliefs -- and beliefs/faith are quite hard to prove/disprove.


climate change is something where scientists can't give a evidence that it's happening.

some faction of science is on a crusade to convnce the world that climate is changing due to human intervention, however there is no tangible evidence that it's the thruth.

Earth showed the opposite several ways, with the coldest winters ever, and with well demarcated seasons.

The common mortal needs evidence, not fairy tales.



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Message 1172053 - Posted: 19 Nov 2011, 1:03:50 UTC
Last modified: 19 Nov 2011, 1:05:04 UTC

This is one for those who (somehow, unbelievably) doubt that our atmosphere is important for life as we know it:


HELL ON EARTH: The Great Dying

Volcanos almost wiped out life on Earth 250m years ago

... to produce the toxic climate that killed off approximately three quarters of life on land and possibly 90 per cent of life in the sea.

"What's striking is how fast the extinction was,"...

...The combination of methane, carbon dioxide and an acid-generating sulphur was enough to create the biggest and worst of the five great mass extinctions to occur on the planet. The Great Dying was only one to kill hardy insects as well as more delicate life-forms.

The first humans are estimated to have emerged 200,000 years ago...



Shame our industry is working up to doing what the volcanoes did some time ago... (The concentration of CO2 is already the highest concentration seen since those days of the mass extinction... Just add methane, sulphur and just a few years...)

This is our only one planet,
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Message 1172494 - Posted: 20 Nov 2011, 16:36:40 UTC
Last modified: 20 Nov 2011, 16:37:26 UTC

This is two direct examples for those who (somehow, unbelievably) doubt that our climate, and the mix of weather from that, are important for life as we know it:


Ducklings hatch at London Wetland Centre

A mallard duck at a wildlife haven in London has hatched 11 ducklings - six months later than usual.

Ducklings would normally arrive between April and June but have been spotted swimming with their mother at London Wetland Centre in Barnes.

The strange sight is being put down to the warm autumn weather...



Midge bites in November 'unusual'

... Dr Blackwell, director of Dundee-based Advanced Pest Solutions, said there had been reports of significant midge activity in places as far apart as Stonehaven in Aberdeenshire and Strathclyde Country Park in Motherwell.

She said: "It is not unusual that there are still some midges flying around but usually we would expect the end of September, beginning of October, that would be them disappeared.

"So if we continue to have similar weather patterns we may well see them pressing into the end of the year."

The Scottish Midge Forecast Service's website says "Biting midges are infamous in the Scottish Highlands, but they are now also found in other parts of the UK, including the Lake District and North Wales. ...




Are you all ready for an all-rapid-change, and the mass migration of everyone due to that?

There are consequences to a continuing exponential increase in any pollution. It just becomes a question of 'when'. Looks like our 'CO2 when' is racing ever closer ever more quickly... And we are still doing nothing significant to reverse the trend.


This is our only planet...
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Message 1172557 - Posted: 20 Nov 2011, 20:25:59 UTC
Last modified: 20 Nov 2011, 20:26:23 UTC

Outline what you want to say.

Say it in detail.

Summarise again what you wanted to say.

Then shut up, or people will get bored with the 25,000th repeat of the same information and start to challenge it's verasity.
It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues



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Message 1172599 - Posted: 20 Nov 2011, 23:05:52 UTC - in response to Message 1172557.  

... Then shut up, or people will get bored with the 25,000th repeat of the same information and start to challenge it's verasity.

So... Do you have anything intelligent to say other than just that it is 2 deg C and a foggy day in your locality at the moment?

Shame you can't even be bothered to spell "veracity" correctly...

Are you yet another one of those who consider themselves too old to care about anything any more?...


I do wonder whether we will get to a stark tipping point where those that do want a future take direct action against those that happily trash the planet for their own selfish profits...

Unfortunately, that is only part of the unfolding story...

Note how the best that you can do is produce stupid jibes, and nothing to demonstrate that we can pollute our planet with impunity.


So... Do you not find it curious and worrying that we have duck chicks in what should be our winter?

And no concern for the spread northwards of malaria? If biting insects in Scotland are happily buzzing around still... (We rely an awful lot on guaranteed frosts during winter killing off 'pests'...)


Still our only one planet even if some are too blind to notice,
Martin

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Message 1172622 - Posted: 21 Nov 2011, 2:34:00 UTC - in response to Message 1172599.  
Last modified: 21 Nov 2011, 3:33:42 UTC

I do wonder whether we will get to a stark tipping point where those that do want a future take direct action against those that happily trash the planet for their own selfish profits...

Unfortunately, that is only part of the unfolding story...

Note how the best that you can do is produce stupid jibes, and nothing to demonstrate that we can pollute our planet with impunity.


So... Do you not find it curious and worrying that we have duck chicks in what should be our winter?

And no concern for the spread northwards of malaria? If biting insects in Scotland are happily buzzing around still... (We rely an awful lot on guaranteed frosts during winter killing off 'pests'...)


It is a rare oddity for Mallard chicks to be born at this time of the year.
The male Mallard is an odd creature and the male responsible for this clutch
of chicks has stayed sexually active far longer than is normal. They can be
wretched creatures, especially to an un-partnered female, and will force
themselves upon her and mate (against her will). Clearly this is a one-off
case as there have been no other reports, even including other bird species
within the UK. So it appears at first hand that the warm November may not
be the reason behind this strange phenomena of the late mating Mallard. I then
suspect that what we are dealing with here is the case of a late maturing male
having forced himself upon a female Mallard resulting in a late clutch of chicks.
Lets see what happens next year if we get another warm November, which
I don't suspect we will but who knows.

This warm November is a rarity, just beats that of the warm November of 1996
which until then was the warmest November since around 1620 when the first
records of UK temperatures were undertaken. This Novembers weather has been
under a rare influence of anticyclonic air flows drawing up warm air from the
south of Italy, then northwards over the continent, and finally over the UK. Had
this occurred during our summer time we would have had some extremely hot
days indeed.

Malaria on the way back to Northern Europe again? This was a problem in the
UK back as late as the mid 1700's, especially in Scotland. What finally saw
Malaria off was improved land drainage and interestingly the mass increase in
pig farming...would you believe it. Quite extensive studies were carried out
regarding Malaria in the UK and one thing considered as not to have had much
impact on causing the decline in Malaria was the cooling of our summers.

Finally, is it to be said that John Clark is too old to care. Certainly not, for
the older you get the wiser you become and the more you tend to care.
Hence, by looking at John's postings you can tell he is "no fool". Added to
this it is clear that he is a well respected member of seti and this position,
I can tell, has to be earned. It has not been gained by having an uncaring
attitude towards worldly events else he would not have the respect that he has.
Yes, we did have a strange day today, mist/fog all day long. I've not seen
this occurrence here since the early 1960's when I was a kid and the fogs were much thicker then.

Finally-finally...

"Veracity - Verasity". veracity, medieval Latin; what did the Romans ever do
for us? Gave us words that we spell their way, had we spelt, or spelled,
it the old English way we would have replaced the "C" with an "S".
In old English "C" was pronounced as "K" the way "C" is pronounced in the word "CAR". Had John
been posting on issues regarding our royal family and in consequence spelt
"QUEEN" as "CWEEN" he would have being using the old English spelling for
"Queen" only discontinued on the arrival hence influence of our Roman occupiers.
"CW" now only seen in the spelling of words contained in the Welsh language.
So what did the Romans do for us, "Gave us an even bigger reasons to require
the need for a dictionary to know how to spell many of our words.
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Message 1172681 - Posted: 21 Nov 2011, 11:32:44 UTC
Last modified: 21 Nov 2011, 11:38:43 UTC

Hee! Hee! Nick

A good logical post and very even handed.

Thanks.

Others I have known for a long time will validate my concern about Western values, the environment and the sustainability of our way of life - consumerism. That is how much I do not care.

I try to take the view where I am involved with technology changes (quite often) on how I can assist with that technology. The aim is to see it being more in tune with nature than the technology it replaces. In this way I am directly influencing, and doing something, to reduce carbon emissions over the medium to long term.

This is a more positive approach, and gets real gains, than continual hectoring. I may be wrong on the latter point, but the only real evidence presented here seems to verify hectoring as the only approach other members of this community take.

I know from personal experience on the behaviour of religious converts that "There are none that are more committed to converting all around them than the very recently converted".

I accept the point on spelling the word verasity meaning - 1. Adherence to the truth; truthfulness. 2. Conformity to fact or truth; accuracy or precision. - it should have been checked before posting.
It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues



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Message 1172725 - Posted: 21 Nov 2011, 15:23:58 UTC - in response to Message 1172681.  
Last modified: 21 Nov 2011, 15:27:59 UTC

... Others I have known for a long time will validate my concern about Western values, the environment and the sustainability of our way of life - consumerism. That is how much I do not care.

I try to take the view where I am involved with technology changes (quite often) on how I can assist with that technology. The aim is to see it being more in tune with nature than the technology it replaces. In this way I am directly influencing, and doing something, to reduce carbon emissions over the medium to long term.

This is a more positive approach, and gets real gains, than continual hectoring. ...

Thanks for two good responses.

This one 'weather anomaly' we're seeing at the moment, in itself is no proof of global warming, but added to all the other changes seen it does add to the unfolding story. It's also a good example for how it can be explained away with the detail of a complicated weather pattern that is not often seen. That is also good for confusing many people with too much detail into just giving up trying to follow the story.

The thing with weather records and record breakers is that for consistent weather, all the records should only get broken early on. After a while, we should have already seen all the extremes. More and more recent 'record breakers' seem to be getting into the news suggesting an increase in extremes and change.

All well and good but is there yet a 'critical mass' of people/opinion to have noticed yet? What is needed to get people to notice?...


The simple story is the direct cause and effect of the CO2 pollution that we are generating on an industrial scale. And yet that appears to be sidelined in the news and politics, at least for the UK...


What is next if polite murmuring is ignored?


We're now seeing very obvious effects such as:

Autumn's birds delay migration

Geese, ducks and swans that spend winter in wetlands of Northern Europe are changing their migration patterns as temperatures rise, ...

... some waterfowl delayed migrations by up to a month compared with 30 years ago.



And yet despite huge politicking, CO2 pollution increases yet further and faster, further into uncharted conditions... So do we have an action plan? Or do we just mutely idly watch?


Note the comparative example of the tobacco industry. It has taken nearly 50 years to get to this point:

Philip Morris sues Australia over cigarette packaging

Tobacco giant Philip Morris is suing the Australian government over a new law making plain packaging mandatory for cigarettes...

... Australia's Minister for Health and Ageing Nicola Roxon said while the tobacco industry was "fighting to protect its profits, we are fighting to protect lives". ...



Scientific opinion is very stark that we do not have another 100 years to procrastinate over this pollution.

As for the hectoring... We've had many years of watching this story progress, with only a first feeble glimmer of doing anything other than procrastination politics.

Do we just try to ride it out and blame everyone else?...


Positive suggestions welcomed.

Still our only planet,
Martin


ps: John: Don't know about your 2 deg C. We've got a balmy min temp of 8 deg C, now back up at 10 deg C despite the fog. You somewhere up high or north?
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Message 1172769 - Posted: 21 Nov 2011, 19:19:55 UTC - in response to Message 1172725.  
Last modified: 21 Nov 2011, 19:31:07 UTC

Thanks for two good responses.

Positive suggestions welcomed.

Still our only planet,
Martin


Very magnanimous of Martin to complement both John and I
on our responses. We now have a debate and not an argument.


Well for sure, animals and plants don't lie unlike some scientist's we
have come to learn about. And it's these scientist's who are responsible
for muddying the waters on both sides of the man made global warming argument.
Global warming has been going on and this can not be denied and this can be
shown via the studying of the vast amount of weather data logged in the UK since
the 1620's. Man made pollution has been on the increase since the start of the
first industrial revolution and is it this pollution that has caused this
global warming. Is it this pollution that has contributed towards natural
global warming or has this pollution had nil effect upon natural global
warming. The planet does go through natural warming and cooling phases, even
the Victorian scientists of their day noticed this. The question is are we
to day contributing to global warming to such an extent that we are
compounding upon it. There is every chance that we are but I'm not too sure
to what degree though. In the seti calendar goes, "Check Mallard mating
habits" next November to see if another occurrence of late born chicks
happens again. Keep global warming monitoring local to you, at least this
way you can truly see what is going on around you. This way you can relate
better to other warming events going on else where hence see if their data
conforms to yours.
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Message 1172982 - Posted: 22 Nov 2011, 11:25:01 UTC

While we are swapping anecdotes:

La Nina has appeared again this year. It is a COOLING of the waters in the Gulf Stream and will result in a much colder than AVERAGE winter for the United states and Europe. Last winter was record cold. So in my ignorance I ask: how do we determine that the Earth is warming "un-naturally" given weather cycles and for that matter climate cycles.
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Message 1173009 - Posted: 22 Nov 2011, 14:14:23 UTC - in response to Message 1172982.  

La Nina has appeared again this year. It is a COOLING of the waters in the Gulf Stream and will result in a much colder than AVERAGE winter for the United states and Europe. Last winter was record cold. So in my ignorance I ask: how do we determine that the Earth is warming "un-naturally" given weather cycles and for that matter climate cycles.


Please do not confuse climate (long term stuff) with weather (daily doorstep stuff for whether or not to hang out your washing).

One of the predictions about Global Warming is that as we heat up our atmosphere and the planet, we will get ever more extreme weather (cold as well as hot), until eventually the weather systems settle to a new and very different stability. Whilst you are suffering a 'cold spell' for your locality, elsewhere in the world is getting a longer duration of being 'fried with heat'. It is the average of the two that is important.


The 'problem' with the expected change is that whatever new stability is formed will mean for our example, a much higher sea level due to there being less ice in the world, and across the planet a very different climate. With that comes great upheaval for all life... Some of the presently habitable areas of the planet become uninhabitable.


All on our only planet,
Martin

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Message 1173166 - Posted: 23 Nov 2011, 7:01:47 UTC - in response to Message 1173009.  
Last modified: 23 Nov 2011, 7:17:54 UTC

La Nina has appeared again this year. It is a COOLING of the waters in the Gulf Stream and will result in a much colder than AVERAGE winter for the United states and Europe. Last winter was record cold. So in my ignorance I ask: how do we determine that the Earth is warming "un-naturally" given weather cycles and for that matter climate cycles.


Please do not confuse climate (long term stuff) with weather (daily doorstep stuff for whether or not to hang out your washing).

One of the predictions about Global Warming is that as we heat up our atmosphere and the planet, we will get ever more extreme weather (cold as well as hot), until eventually the weather systems settle to a new and very different stability. Whilst you are suffering a 'cold spell' for your locality, elsewhere in the world is getting a longer duration of being 'fried with heat'. It is the average of the two that is important.


The 'problem' with the expected change is that whatever new stability is formed will mean for our example, a much higher sea level due to there being less ice in the world, and across the planet a very different climate. With that comes great upheaval for all life... Some of the presently habitable areas of the planet become uninhabitable.


All on our only planet,
Martin


One prediction regarding global warming for the UK was that we would get
continental summers. So far this has not occurred, yet with November in
mind we seemed to have had a touch of continental winter though. But is
does look like things will start to cool down to the norm come the end of
this month. Fog again, looks like the last of it for now, has been many-many
years since I have experienced regular bouts of fog like this all though back
then it was much thicker. We will know if global warming is occurring when
we start to get snow at Christmas for there will have to be something
wrong with our weather patern if this rarity was ever to occur in my region anyway.

Out of interest, it was noted in 1615 the sudden increase in earth quakes
around the world. A similar experience we are noticing today, I wounder if
there is any correlation here regarding climate events then and to that
of today. Back in 1615 they also had a big volcanic eruption so are we
heading towards one some where around the world soon.
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Message 1173539 - Posted: 24 Nov 2011, 21:10:51 UTC
Last modified: 24 Nov 2011, 21:16:26 UTC

Them fibbing scientist again, just who is one supposed to believe these days?

CLIMATEGATE SCANDAL RESURFACES

Tuesday, 22nd November 2011

Several thousand new emails have come to light purporting to show that these involved in pushing the 'We are all going to die' line in politics of climate change have at a lot more questions to answer.

Godfrey Bloom MEP, The UKIIP Energy spokesman said: "The person (or persons) unknown who leaked thousands of emails between climate scientists in 2009, leading to the 'Climategate' scandal has struck again.

"Thousands more emails have now been released into the public domain, revealing more about the institutional corruption at the heart of this pseudo-scientific enterprise designed to relieve people of their cash.

"Nobody has had time to digest the full impact of these messages yet but what seems obvious at first blush is that those involved in Climategate and the institutional defence of rank climate change alarmism, fraud, and deceit are going to struggle to cover their a***s this time.

"None of this would have happened had there been an honest and transparent public debate about climate change. But right from the start of this sordid affair, vested interests and political ambitions hid themselves in the complex world of climate science. People with enough sense to see through massive gaps in knowledge about the climate saw through the scam, and called it out as so much bullshi*.

"We got called 'deniers'", said Bloom,

"But now the boot is on the other foot, and for the last two years, the alarmists have been fighting a rearguard action.

"Climate change scare stories no longer create moral high ground for politicians and their useful idiots in the environmental movement. What seems to have motivated the release of these emails is concern that the trillions of pounds that will be wasted on climate change policies the world over will take from the poor, increasing world poverty, death, and disease."
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Message 1173831 - Posted: 26 Nov 2011, 9:13:36 UTC
Last modified: 26 Nov 2011, 9:13:57 UTC

CLIMATEGATE SCANDAL RESURFACES


You said it brother. That's where I am at as well.
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Message 1174482 - Posted: 29 Nov 2011, 5:32:35 UTC

And for those who don't want to dig through a pile of Emails. this is what the warmers are up to Link
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Message 1174498 - Posted: 29 Nov 2011, 8:29:54 UTC

yes the fossil fuel flunkies attempted a "climategate" call. And it was thoroughly discredited. But just like the birthers, it will go on.

You have the people that know (scientists) and the people who want to make it up
(pundits and fossils). And people are going to believe who they want to believe.
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Message 1174517 - Posted: 29 Nov 2011, 11:28:48 UTC - in response to Message 1174498.  
Last modified: 29 Nov 2011, 11:44:26 UTC

You have the people that know (scientists) and the people who want to make it up
(pundits and fossils). And people are going to believe who they want to believe.


That's right!! Just like any religion. Based on an essentially unprovable false premise.

Create a fear of Hell fire and receive money for indulgences.
Create a fear of a baking planet and justify wasting multi-millions of dollars on 'investment" in Solyndra
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Message 1174527 - Posted: 29 Nov 2011, 13:59:52 UTC - in response to Message 1174498.  

yes the fossil fuel flunkies attempted a "climategate" call. And it was thoroughly discredited. But just like the birthers, it will go on.

You have the people that know (scientists) and the people who want to make it up
(pundits and fossils). And people are going to believe who they want to believe.

The warmers run the biggest scam the world has ever known and you like being cheated? Unbelievable. Just because a person is a scientist doesn't mean they can't be corrupted.
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Message 1174529 - Posted: 29 Nov 2011, 14:19:58 UTC - in response to Message 1174527.  
Last modified: 29 Nov 2011, 14:20:54 UTC

yes the fossil fuel flunkies attempted a "climategate" call. And it was thoroughly discredited. But just like the birthers, it will go on.

You have the people that know (scientists) and the people who want to make it up
(pundits and fossils). And people are going to believe who they want to believe.

The warmers run the biggest scam the world has ever known and you like being cheated? Unbelievable. Just because a person is a scientist doesn't mean they can't be corrupted.

And that is where open peer review soon clears out any corruption of whatever nature.

... Unfortunately, that also gives the Market FUD junkies infinite ammunition to discredit everything in a quagmire of FUD and distraction. Just as the tobacco industry did and continues to do so.

So what do you smoke to dream you live longer?!


Also, the FUD-ists can be sponsored by the fossil fuels industry to spread disinformation full-time. Those that care often have real world jobs with no time to untangle the Marketing crap...

So when is Marketing a religion? Is that the latest ploy in the Marketing game?

It is the old fossils that will see their business change after all... Take a look at who and by how much:

Carbon emissions divide 'can be bridged'

(Also check on who is sponsoring what...)


Pre-industrial levels of CO2 maintained about 33 deg C warming for the climate in which Mankind has flourished. We have no experience of anything else. We are now above doubling an important part of that warming effect...

Unfortunately, there appears to be the greedy big business and the lazy-blind who actively refuse to see the world reality... Just like the old tobacco industry and die-hard smelly smokers.


Still all our only planet,
Martin
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Message boards : Politics : Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects, Environment, etc part II


 
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