[size=9]You know Matt i would hardly call that a 'scientific rebuttal'.

There has been no science presented here save for my posts so there has been nothing to address in terms of science. I presented an elementary description of work as done by a temperature difference which is so far as I am aware the only science which has been presented here. But then, it is called politics so I am hardly surprised.

Thirteen! Thirteen years of lies.

A fact.

i don't think that any scientists of merit have made definitive predictions on where climate change trends are leading us to.

Then you are not paying attention. http://www.giwersworld.org/environment/aehb.phtml is several decades old and still applicable. Again, perhaps your youth and inexperience is a hindrance.

In fact i think you can relax knowing that for the most part people don't understand what scientists do, or what they're good for.
You probably also know that even if the 'science pros' did get it right the politicians wouldn't do a thing until it was too late.

It was too late in 1998. Get an SUV and party!

There is nothing politicians can do. This is a democracy not a dictatorship. If people do not want it then it is not going to happen. Endless predictions of ten more years or else are not helping.

i really do wish you'd get off of this Fox News style 'Pathos' based rhetoric.
i urge you to have a look at...Climate Wars...for a more rational view.

I have no interest in Fox news nor they in me.
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Speaking of real physics and the con game trying to say climate change instead of melting.
Real physics says very simply work is done (work being a hurricane or tornado or even a modest thunderstorm) when there is an energy difference. Atmospheric energy is usually in the form of a temperature difference. Systems try to reach equilibrium meaning the same temperature. It is not quite this simple but bear with me.
ALL the supposed climate models say the tropics stay the same and the poles get warmer. That means LESS temperature difference. So the temperature difference DEcreaeses and thus IF the melters are right storms decrease not increase.
BUT if anyone has a proper scientific difference with this post then please post the science not political opinion.

Well Matt your basic premise is not supported by the evidence you provide.

I presented no evidence. I recited elementary thermodynamics that I was taught in High School physics class. That his HIGH SCHOOL not the degree level thermo course in college.

Would say that most climate models predict that the
The tropics get hotter, the subtropics dry out, and so do the lower
subtemperate latitudes up to the middle of the United States of America.
Hi I'm Canada. I've got lots of water. Wanna share?

Wanna share the flood waters?

The energy within the atmosphere, as in all thermodynamic systems, is enumerated by its enthalpy. All the lazy air drifts to the poles.

Please explain enthalpy and how the TOTAL energy can drift. It you mean equalize yes, the greatest change is at the poles and the least in the tropics resulting in an overall reduced temperature difference and less energy available for storms.

i suppose that to have a comprehensive climate model one would model all of near earth space to a one-to-one atomic level resolution,
Ah but now we have that ever so convenient 'Solar Dimming' to save our BUTTS.
If you didn't believe the 'Gloom and Doom' science pros why would you believe the 'new' science guys so quickly.

If enthalpy was a revelation to you, well it's right up there with entropy.

I have taken the required thermo course for a degree in physics which I do have. Just by chance I spent the afternoon researching ways to estimate the theoretical temperature of the plasma in my side project on exploding wires. The energy per copper ion appears to be the way to go at this point. In the process I realized there is a major misrepresentation of current flow in coax cable in the usual presentation.

Is there anything else?

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There has been no science presented here save for my posts so there has been nothing to address in terms of science. I presented an elementary description of work as done by a temperature difference which is so far as I am aware the only science which has been presented here. But then, it is called politics so I am hardly surprised. ...

Sorry, Matt, but your random drivel is so far off from reality that your words carry little to zero real world meaning. Sorry, no discussion possible. You appear to be on a different planet to that of planet Earth.

I guess your myopic swan-song will be that you told us so... Whatever that might be...

You deny all real world physics and science. So please enjoy your denial and religion. Meanwhile, the rest of us hope that Mankind can contrive to stay on planet Earth for better and greater things and all without trashing the planet.


It's the only planet we have,
Martin

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So how can the deniers deny this?


World's oceans in 'shocking' decline

... issues such as over-fishing, pollution and climate change are acting together in ways that have not previously been recognised.

The impacts, they say, are already affecting humanity. ...

... immediate recommendations include:

* stopping exploitative fishing now, with special emphasis on the high seas where currently there is little effective regulation
* mapping and then reducing the input of pollutants including plastics, agricultural fertilisers and human waste
* making sharp reductions in greenhouse gas emissions.

Carbon dioxide levels are now so high, it says, that ways of pulling the gas out of the atmosphere need to be researched urgently - but not using techniques, such as iron fertilisation, that lead to more CO2 entering the oceans. ...

... "The time to protect the blue heart of our planet is now."


And how can the politicians not galvanise to stop the rot?

Or are the deniers and politicians like drug addicts, blind to their killer addiction until death?


Science is giving a very consistent clarion call. The time to act is now.

It's the only planet we have,
Martin

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FWIW ...
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/22/nasa-scientist-accused-using-celeb-status-among-environmental-groups-to-enrich/?test=latestnews

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FWIW ...
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/22/nasa-scientist-accused-using-celeb-status-among-environmental-groups-to-enrich/?test=latestnews

Wow!

That must be the ultimate in sour grapes to start such dredging up of any dirt possible for someone who is indeed a celebrity as a world authority on how we are continuing to trash our very own world!

I guess that article follows on nicely for the other many years of investigative persecution that he has already suffered. Similar also to the supposed 'irregularities' the Chinese dictatorship have imprisoned the outspoken artist Ai Weiwei for the last two months without a lawyer and without contact?...


For the stress and personal turmoil he has endured for directly facing up to the climate deniers, he his due far more than any of those awards have compensated him for in recognition of his personal efforts.


In my view, indeed an act of sour grapes and possibly even malicious retribution...

It's still our only world,
Martin

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FWIW ...
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/22/nasa-scientist-accused-using-celeb-status-among-environmental-groups-to-enrich/?test=latestnews

Wow!

That must be the ultimate in sour grapes to start such dredging up of any dirt possible for someone who is indeed a celebrity as a world authority on how we are continuing to trash our very own world!

I guess that article follows on nicely for the other many years of investigative persecution that he has already suffered. ...

... and possibly even malicious retribution...

Unfortunately, there's lots more of that sort of nastiness and worse:


Australian climate researchers face death threats

... several scientists have received aggressive e-mails and even death threats. The intimidation, which first came to light in the Australian press early last month, has resulted in some of the targeted researchers being moved into more secure offices. ...

... Michael Mann, director of the Earth System Science Center at Pennsylvania State University and creator of the widely accepted "hockey-stick graph" showing the recent surge in temperatures caused by climate change, says he finds it disturbing that Australian climate scientists have been subjected to the same sort of intimidation tactics that he has had to contend with in the US. "It would seem to confirm a level of coordination and even orchestration to the attacks against climate science and climate scientists," he says.


Does this show that the big polluters and the deniers have lost whatever argument they might have had?

Nasty stuff all round.

It's still our only world,
Martin

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How Can Warming Cause Colder Winters ?

It may sound pretty crazy at first, but that's because we give the wrong name to what really is going on around us. Our changing climate isn't all about temperatures.

Several new studies -- most recently that of physicist Vladimir Petoukhov and colleagues in Germany and Russia, reporting in the Journal of Geophysical Research -- have been pointing to a warming Arctic to explain recent severely cold winters in the Northern Hemisphere.

climate isn't all about temperatures.

SEE ALSO: Warmer Arctic Spells Colder Winters

Warming temperatures may be at the root of it all -- on a planetary scale -- but where the changes hit the pavement on a regional scale, where you and I live, it is not necessarily the warming that we are going to remember.

Like a furniture mover running amok in a comfortable room, temperature changes are rearranging important features of our climate system -- altering patterns of cloudiness, for instance, as well as ocean currents, glaciers and ice caps. Most important for the Northern Hemisphere's winters is the loss of ice floating on the surface of the Arctic Ocean.

SEE ALSO: Winter Outlook: Wet, Cool Northwest, Dry Southeast

What happens in Las Vegas may stay in Las Vegas, as they say, but this definitely is not true of the Arctic. Instead of the sunlight bouncing off the bright sea ice and reflecting back into space, the exposed ocean now absorbs its warmth -- changing not just the temperature of the water but the circulation of the atmosphere above it.

Read More here ...

http://news.discovery.com/earth/inside-the-cold-winter-paradox.html
http://news.discovery.com/earth/inside-the-cold-winter-paradox.html

There has been no science presented here save for my posts so there has been nothing to address in terms of science. I presented an elementary description of work as done by a temperature difference which is so far as I am aware the only science which has been presented here. But then, it is called politics so I am hardly surprised. ...

Sorry, Matt, but your random drivel is so far off from reality that your words carry little to zero real world meaning. Sorry, no discussion possible. You appear to be on a different planet to that of planet Earth.

If you really want to reduce this to direct personal insult instead of backhand personal insult such your last comment on enthalpy just say so. I am modestly skilled in the art. Having a degree in physics, meaning an actual education and a career's worth of experience using and expanding my knowledge of physics, can appear to be random drivel to those lacking such education, knowledge and experience. If you would like it more open than that you need only post the opening shot.

I guess your myopic swan-song will be that you told us so... Whatever that might be...

You deny all real world physics and science. So please enjoy your denial and religion. Meanwhile, the rest of us hope that Mankind can contrive to stay on planet Earth for better and greater things and all without trashing the planet.


It's the only planet we have,
Martin

How do you know what constitutes physics? Do you have a degree in physics? In any science? Please, enlighten me. Recite your credentials.

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So how can the deniers deny this?...

There is no science in the journalist's article. What is your point in posting it absent scientific content?

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FWIW ...
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/22/nasa-scientist-accused-using-celeb-status-among-environmental-groups-to-enrich/?test=latestnews

Any time anyone points out the melters have no science behind their hysteria they immediately dig up any and all real and imaginary connections to oil companies. About time the playing field is levelled.

Having looked into the patent holders and investors behind alternate energy efforts and found the oil companies are in the forefront and will maintain their profits even if oil is banned I do not see why the melters think there is a problem with the connection.

Sounds like the oil companies are suppressing alternate energy just as they suppressed the 200mpg carburator. The oil companies are nothing but hotbeds of conspiracies.

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How Can Warming Cause Colder Winters ?

It may sound pretty crazy at first, but that's because we give the wrong name to what really is going on around us. Our changing climate isn't all about temperatures. ...

When we find that regardless of what happens with the weather it was caused by global melting one has to conclude the melters are no different from the end of the world types. When one end of the world fails to occur there is always another one coming real soon.

It is no different from 23 years of "ten years or it is too late" predictions 13 of which have been exposed as lies.

These people lie to fluently ... Consider a BBC article recently linked. It says the coral reefs will be gone in a generation. It just shows how far they will go to lie.

There are NO coral reefs. They all vanished in 2006. That was the year they were once predicted to vanish and that is the year they vanished. These people should stop pretending there are still coral reefs. There are none. They are all gone. Global melting destroyed them years ago.

Can we expect the melters to ever be honest and truthful?

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... Unfortunately, there's lots more of that sort of nastiness and worse:

Australian climate researchers face death threats

Three indicted by Brazilian police for Amazon murders

Police in Brazil have indicted three people for the killing of a couple of prominent environmental activists in the Amazon three months ago.

The campaigners were shot dead in a forest reserve in the northern state of Para.

The police said the couple had been opposing the eviction of rural workers from land owned by a local farmer, accused of arranging the killings.

The landowner and the two suspect gunmen remain at large.

The environmentalists - Jose Claudio Ribeiro da Silva and his wife, Maria do Espirito Santo Silva - had lived in the town of Nova Ipixuna for 18 years. ...


That example was merely over just a few trees and a small plot of land and forcing people off the land.


Meanwhile, we determinedly pollute our planet on an ever increasingly vast industrial scale...

Nasty stuff all round.

It's still our only world,
Martin

---

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Ah the fish carburetor !! Where can I get one and invest in the company

CERN 'gags' physicists in cosmic ray climate experiment
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/07/18/cern_cosmic_ray_gag/

uhoh something that doesn't gel with our myth that man is the major contributor to global warming. Shh you physicists you are not allowed to discuss this. The whole man made global warming carbon tax is nothing but a scheme set up by the rothschilds and other banking cartel families to take every peny they can from everyone on the planet.

This link that you provided serves to bolster my long term intuition about this great debate,

Though I don't pretend to be a climate physicist I have long felt that warming depends primarily on cloud cover and Solar output. Therefore, the amount of heat energy that impinges on the Earth and is prevented from escaping determines local and regional global warming or cooling. Shifts in the normal Jet stream paths and altitudes also influence cloud formation and water vapor absorption by the atmosphere,

This link that you provided serves to bolster my long term intuition about this great debate,

Though I don't pretend to be a climate physicist I have long felt that warming depends primarily on cloud cover and Solar output. Therefore, the amount of heat energy that impinges on the Earth and is prevented from escaping determines local and regional global warming or cooling. Shifts in the normal Jet stream paths and altitudes also influence cloud formation and water vapor absorption by the atmosphere,

Indeed they do.

The level of CO2 (and other long-lived greenhouse gasses) act to control the amount of water vapour put into the atmosphere.

Water gets recycled through the atmosphere in just a few days and is controlled by other longer term effects such as the CO2 that lingers for many decades before being recycled or broken down.


The level of CO2 and other pollutants in the atmosphere is something that industry and farming directly influence.


It's the only planet we have,
Martin

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That's the crux of the debate. It's hard to believe that CO-2 which comprises less than .0004 of our atmosphere influences water vapor content to any significant degree whatsoever. I have not seen the study that shows how this effect works. Man made CO-2 is also a small percentage of what is being produced and couldn't be stopped anyhow since we don't have the capital to rebuild our World's energy supply, transportation system, home heating nor food production methods. To me it would make more sense to worry about the water vapor which is a by-product of combustion. In efficient furnaces and in tall smoke stacks we can actually have a wet stack since we are below adiabatic saturation--you may also note that cars' exhaust is more visible until they warm up to where the exhaust gas (which contains water vapor) rises above around 300 degrees F. So if we are warming it would make more sense to campaign against Hydrogen Hydroxide or,if you prefer, Di-Hydrogen Monoxide

I take very seriously the fact that we came out of the last ice age without the help of the the CO-2 level that we have now. I therefore conclude that the earth is subject to climate fluctuations of a severe nature all on it's own. I could maybe be convinced that we are warming but I would have to see some intelligent discussion of the Data. This has been a hot summer--many records equalled or broken --it was also a very cold winter--many records broken there as well.

So I say find another "religion" or: , plant more trees, move inland, build a seawall or move to Canada. Alternatively we could ask Johnnie to send us a case of Guiness, put our head between our legs and kiss our asses goodbye.

To me it is as tiresome to listen to this as it is to listen to those who would save my soul, fix my credit score, intervene with the IRS, reduce my credit card debt, warn me about the Rapture, protect me from identity theft and so on. To quote that great spanish philosopher Bob Lutz "it's all a load of crappola" .

Did you enjoy my rant ??

Regards to all --I love you anyway

Daddio

It's hard to believe that CO-2 which comprises less than .0004 of our atmosphere influences water vapor content to any significant degree whatsoever.

Some people believe in Nibiru.

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Right 0n !

It's probably OK though to be slightly concerned that a large object could impact the Earth and cause mayhem as it has in the distant past--perhaps we should keep looking and rely on our best physicists and astronomers. We probably are working on some ideas of how to nudge any threats that we find far enough out to push them out of near earth orbit and on into space or the sun. Jupiter and Saturn I presume would capture most of these as they have done in the past.

I saw the whole Y2K thing as another one of these ignorant scares.

I would advise all of the chicken little fans out there to start worrying about Y3k or would it be Y10K ??