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Message 991149 - Posted: 22 Apr 2010, 17:48:27 UTC
Last modified: 22 Apr 2010, 17:49:29 UTC

For debunking all the various Climate Change 'Skeptics' and 'Denilists', and just for the simply curious, here's a pretty good site that calmly answers the top Climate Change questions:

Skeptical Science (Climate Change)


Hopefully we can soon move on from the FUD and procrastinations and meaningfully start to do something useful. And all before it all gets too painful or expensive...

This is our only one planet we call home.

Regards,
Martin
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Message 991164 - Posted: 22 Apr 2010, 19:07:57 UTC

Another problem created by excess CO2...

Ocean Acidification

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Message 991177 - Posted: 22 Apr 2010, 19:54:15 UTC

Despite the ash... perhaps the Icelandic volcano will do some (short-lived, admittedly) good. Global Dimming may cool temperatures slightly, meaning the arctic may not melt so much this coming summer. Or, you could interpret it as ash landing on the ice will increase the albedo of the surface, and actually cause MORE melting.

But don't forget all the CO2 that wasn't released by 17,500 European and International flights...
- Luke.
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Message 991199 - Posted: 22 Apr 2010, 21:30:17 UTC - in response to Message 991164.  

Another problem created by excess CO2...

Ocean Acidification


Thanks for that.

Unfortunately, that article follows up very clearly for what started a long thread from over a year ago:

CLIMATE CHANGE, GREEN HOUSE,OCEAN FALLING PH etc


Even more unfortunately, such direct confirmation has come far too soon too quickly.


The time for FUD and procrastination has long since past.

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Martin

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Message 991285 - Posted: 23 Apr 2010, 3:45:50 UTC
Last modified: 23 Apr 2010, 3:47:59 UTC

Moved from stupid thread.
This is moving off the stupid vs not-stupid thread so last response here. Further discussion welcomed on a new climate change thread:

Climate Change Answers

This article briefly summarises the volcanoes vs Man's efforts:

Do volcanoes emit more CO2 than humans?

The difference is clearly significant.


Ah, 1% of human activity.

Yep. We outgun all the combined might of the Earth's volcanoes on land and including under the sea by 100:1!

Mauna Loa CO2 plot
Interesting, wonder why they tried to pick that plot. After all Mauna Loa is an active volcano so I'm not so sure I take a plot of CO2 there as representative of planet wide levels. I mean consider Mammoth Mountain. Is someone fudging or just being sloppy?

Try looking a little further to back up your claim/question?

See: How reliable are CO2 measurements?

Mauna Loa is often used as an example of rising carbon dioxide levels because its the longest, continuous series of directly measured atmospheric CO2. The reason why it's acceptable to use Mauna Loa as a proxy for global CO2 levels is because CO2 mixes well throughout the atmosphere. Consequently, the trend in Mauna Loa CO2 (1.64 ppm per year) is statistically indistinguishable from the trend in global CO2 levels (1.66 ppm per year).

Follow ups on Climate Change Answers please.


Regards,
Martin

It has been established that CO2 does not mix well through the atmosphere. That is a somewhat new finding.
http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=51313&nowrap=true#982961
That's why the question about being on top of an active CO2 belching volcano being used as a reference point for CO2 levels. And wondering if other CO2 monitoring stations are as well situated. Not saying it is wrong, just saying it needs a footnote saying why it is right is required.

[edit]quotes fixed
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Message 991292 - Posted: 23 Apr 2010, 4:10:34 UTC

Man-Made Climate change is happening. Period.

I refuse to call it global warming because not every location on the planet will experience a positive temperature or sea level anomoly. Hell, in some places, the sea level may actually drop.

But, back to the original point - anyone who doesn't believe it is short-sighted.
People will bury their heads in the sand because it will cost them money to FIX the problem. And the rich simply don't want to.

Solar, Wind, Next Generation Geothermal, Tidal, Wave, Space Based Solar is the future.

Nuclear Power plants are sort of - pre-positioned weapons of mass destruction... and if the next terrorist suicide bomber decides to aim a jetliner at a nuclear power plant instead of a highrise... it's lights out.

Climate Changer is real and it's here.

- Luke.
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Message 991341 - Posted: 23 Apr 2010, 10:15:11 UTC - in response to Message 991285.  
Last modified: 23 Apr 2010, 10:15:36 UTC

... See: How reliable are CO2 measurements?

Mauna Loa is often used as an example of rising carbon dioxide levels because its the longest, continuous series of directly measured atmospheric CO2. The reason why it's acceptable to use Mauna Loa as a proxy for global CO2 levels is because CO2 mixes well throughout the atmosphere. Consequently, the trend in Mauna Loa CO2 (1.64 ppm per year) is statistically indistinguishable from the trend in global CO2 levels (1.66 ppm per year).


It has been established that CO2 does not mix well through the atmosphere. That is a somewhat new finding.
http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=51313&nowrap=true#982961
That's why the question about being on top of an active CO2 belching volcano being used as a reference point for CO2 levels. And wondering if other CO2 monitoring stations are as well situated. Not saying it is wrong, just saying it needs a footnote saying why it is right is required.

Can you put some example numbers to your hypothesis? Is the 'non-mixing' you highlight significant for the places where CO2 concentrations are measured?


This is where I think we come back to the question of how much detail to include in the 'Truth' versus too much brevity being 'lies to children'. Science goes to ever greater excruciating detail that is far beyond most people's ability and experience and far far beyond most people's interest and patience. Scientists often use a precision of language that non-scientists just do not understand - it's almost a different language.

Unfortunately, Marketing for various vested interests and the Climate Deniers have for one tactic seized upon the amount scientific detail to quagmire people in 'footnotes' and FUD.


As a footnote:

We have maps of the globe showing varying CO2 concentration that nicely show plumes of CO2 from certain activity in certain areas. Obviously, monitoring CO2 concentration in the area of a plume is going to be influenced by that plume... Mauna Loa (Hawaii) is a very good monitoring site because it is far away from any plumes of significance. Which is one of the reasons CO2 concentration was first tested there with startling results after just the first year.

Note that your highlighted paper for aircraft mounted CO2 monitoring is interesting for CO2 mixing at high altitude. That adds to the accuracy of the science and climate modelling. The average CO2 concentration still remains the same.


Regards,
Martin
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Message 1000996 - Posted: 5 Jun 2010, 17:23:22 UTC - in response to Message 991149.  

Hey Martin, thank you, for your excellent post and this excellent thread. I think that in twenty year time (some climate scientists say it will be sooner) the south pole and the north pole of our planet Earth will be ice free in the summer time. Our global civilization is clearly on the edge of failure and I think the most important task we humans face, is to preserve the lives and well-being of our citizens and the future habitability of our planet. It is sad to see how we humans on our planet Earth are arguing and squabbling over such trivial little matters as to who owns what piece of land, when in fact the only piece land each of us will ever own in our life time is 2x6 and 6 feet under. History is full of people who out of fear or ignorance or the lust for power have destroyed treasures of immeasurable value which truly belong to all of us. We must not let it happen again. that is why I wanted to give this thread a little bump.

anyway people keep on thinking
Best Wishes
Byron


For debunking all the various Climate Change 'Skeptics' and 'Denilists', and just for the simply curious, here's a pretty good site that calmly answers the top Climate Change questions:

Skeptical Science (Climate Change)


Hopefully we can soon move on from the FUD and procrastinations and meaningfully start to do something useful. And all before it all gets too painful or expensive...

This is our only one planet we call home.

Regards,
Martin


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Message 1001030 - Posted: 5 Jun 2010, 18:16:29 UTC - in response to Message 1000996.  

... History is full of people who out of fear or ignorance or the lust for power have destroyed treasures of immeasurable value which truly belong to all of us. We must not let it happen again. that is why I wanted to give this thread a little bump.


Byron,

thank you for your kind and thoughtful words for the world.

I hope this little bump will stir a little more positive action to do some good for all.


Regards,
Martin

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Message 1001298 - Posted: 6 Jun 2010, 16:19:28 UTC

Thanks Martin.
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Message 1001831 - Posted: 8 Jun 2010, 14:32:30 UTC - in response to Message 991177.  

Despite the ash... perhaps the Icelandic volcano will do some (short-lived, admittedly) good. Global Dimming may cool temperatures slightly, meaning the arctic may not melt so much this coming summer. Or, you could interpret it as ash landing on the ice will increase the albedo of the surface, and actually cause MORE melting.

But don't forget all the CO2 that wasn't released by 17,500 European and International flights...

I wonder if anyone is getting into the numbers. I do recall the numbers for the 9/11 days were tabulated and universally across the US we have lower and wider ranging temperatures day to night. one can only assume that the jet vapors create a blanket that prevents the heat from dissapating from the upper atmosphere


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Message 1001965 - Posted: 9 Jun 2010, 1:36:23 UTC - in response to Message 1001831.  
Last modified: 9 Jun 2010, 1:36:56 UTC

Despite the ash... perhaps the Icelandic volcano will do some (short-lived, admittedly) good. Global Dimming may cool temperatures slightly, meaning the arctic may not melt so much this coming summer. Or, you could interpret it as ash landing on the ice will increase the albedo of the surface, and actually cause MORE melting.

But don't forget all the CO2 that wasn't released by 17,500 European and International flights...

I wonder if anyone is getting into the numbers. I do recall the numbers for the 9/11 days were tabulated and universally across the US we have lower and wider ranging temperatures day to night. one can only assume that the jet vapors create a blanket that prevents the heat from dissapating from the upper atmosphere

It's a complicated mix that may well be swung by the black carbon (soot) emitted...


A good summary is given in:

Are vapor trails from aircraft influencing the climate, and if so, should we worry?

... At least that was the case until September 11, 2001. For the first time since the jet age began, virtually all aircraft were grounded over the United States for three days. ...

One study looked at the aforementioned contrails that grew to cover 7,700 square miles. Those condensation trails arose in the wake of six military aircraft ...

... They compared those data with the average range in day-night temperatures for the period 1971-2000, again across the contiguous 48 states. Travis's team discovered that from roughly midday September 11 to midday September 14, the days had become warmer and the nights cooler, with the overall range greater by about two degrees Fahrenheit.

These results suggest that contrails can suppress both daytime highs (by reflecting sunlight back to space) and nighttime lows (by trapping radiated heat). That is, they can be both cooling and warming clouds. But what is the net effect? Do they cool more than they warm, or vice versa? "Well, the assumption is a net warming," Travis says, "but...

... "Aircraft are likely to be a significant factor in future climate, but probably not via their contrails," Hansen told me. "I think our main concern about aircraft will be their CO2 emissions, not contrails, which are a pretty small climate forcing."...



And the real kill may well be:

Aircraft Vapor Trails Responsible for 15-20% of Arctic Warming

"If black-carbon emissions from aircraft could be reduced 20-fold, warming [from plane-created vapour trails] would be halted"


So... Looks like the biggest gain is to make transport more efficient and also less polluting from soot.


It's our only planet!
Martin
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