WHY do you/don't you believe in GOD?

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Message 988723 - Posted: 12 Apr 2010, 22:02:28 UTC - in response to Message 987888.  
Last modified: 12 Apr 2010, 22:03:11 UTC


No I don't believe in God, and for the same reason that I don't believe in Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy or the Great Pumpkin. I left all of those things in childhood, where they belong.


NO!!!! are you really telling me there is not an Easter Bunny! :'( oh how will I ever go on!

In repsonse to whether there is a God or not. I honestly can say I'm not sure.
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Message 988734 - Posted: 12 Apr 2010, 22:53:30 UTC - in response to Message 988129.  

Yes, I do believe in God.

However, the God I believe in did not make us as dolls or artworks to be enjoyed and kept on a shelf. If God had made us perfect, unable to do harm or be harmed, merely to exist in a world without strife, disease, or any other hardship, we would not be human at all. We would be nothing more than paintings or statues in a garden. The Christian Bible uses that very allegory in Genesis.

kenzieB doesn't see a reason for a God. Humans can do a lot of things, but we cannot explain, let alone create the universe and all its complex rules and interactions. God is the reason for the existence of all of this. God has no gender (that would be limiting); God has no form -- God is not an old man in a painting breathing life into humans. It is because of God that we exist and because of God that we die. If we experience good things in our lives, it is because God made us to be able to create good things and to enjoy them. If we experience bad things in our lives because God made us able to do bad things and to do something about them.

God is not miracles. God has us do things that appear to be miracles. When a vaccination for polio was found it is because there is such a thing as polio and there are people who can address the disease and find a solution. When people die on an operating table and are brought back to life by a skilled doctor, I still see that as a miracle, just as people 2000 years ago thought of bringing a person back to life as a miracle.

God is the reason water boils at 32°F; and the reason hydrogen atoms formed after the Big Bang; and the reason for black holes, stars, planets, people, single celled organisms, atoms and quarks. No scientist has ever been able to explain why the universe gelled in the way that it did and not with some other odd set of physical rules, just as no scientist has ever been able to explain why a singularity 14 billion years ago decided to expand into the universe we know today.

I do believe in God. Not a God that sticks His finger into my personal life, except to the extent that the God I know has made me susceptible to a complex set of physical and moral rules. The God I believe in made everything, including me, but did not make my universe a perfectly safe place nor did God limit me to being a perfect person incapable of error. This leaves me the goals of making our world better and striving for perfection as a moral being (not many have reached that).

I know my response raises other questions, as it should, but this is the simplest and most direct way I can describe my belief in the "thing" (still a very limiting term) that created -- everything.


Tom, that is without a doubt the most convincing argument for the existence of God that I've ever heard. You got me rethinking a few things with that. Not an easy thing to do...

Thanks.
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Message 988758 - Posted: 13 Apr 2010, 0:31:48 UTC - in response to Message 988593.  

Matt_Giwer, I'm not allowed to post responses here so you'll have to get answers to your hundred questions somewhere else unfortunately.
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Message 988834 - Posted: 13 Apr 2010, 5:32:10 UTC - in response to Message 988758.  

Matt_Giwer, I'm not allowed to post responses here so you'll have to get answers to your hundred questions somewhere else unfortunately.


You said merely

There wouldn't be anything at all if there wasn't a God.


Why are you not allowed to tell me who told you that?

Why are you not allowed to tell me why you believe whomever told you that?

I am simply drawing attention to the well known fact that people who claim to believe things like that have no reason to believe the people who told them that. When I was a lad I was first told that by some nun whose name is mercifully forgotten. After that it was repeated by nuns and priests. I can say at the time I believed them. I can say I believed them at the time because I was unaware of the fact adults said things for no good reason at all.

I can also say it took me until I was thirteen to realize the full implications of adults saying things for no good reason. It took another year or two mature out of the child behavior of believing adults. I can say my interest in politics facilitated that maturation process.

Why cannot you do the same?

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Message 989205 - Posted: 14 Apr 2010, 23:24:19 UTC - in response to Message 988129.  

Yes, I do believe in God.

However, the God I believe in did not make us as dolls or artworks to be enjoyed and kept on a shelf. If God had made us perfect, unable to do harm or be harmed, merely to exist in a world without strife, disease, or any other hardship, we would not be human at all. We would be nothing more than paintings or statues in a garden. The Christian Bible uses that very allegory in Genesis.

kenzieB doesn't see a reason for a God. Humans can do a lot of things, but we cannot explain, let alone create the universe and all its complex rules and interactions. God is the reason for the existence of all of this. God has no gender (that would be limiting); God has no form -- God is not an old man in a painting breathing life into humans. It is because of God that we exist and because of God that we die. If we experience good things in our lives, it is because God made us to be able to create good things and to enjoy them. If we experience bad things in our lives because God made us able to do bad things and to do something about them.

God is not miracles. God has us do things that appear to be miracles. When a vaccination for polio was found it is because there is such a thing as polio and there are people who can address the disease and find a solution. When people die on an operating table and are brought back to life by a skilled doctor, I still see that as a miracle, just as people 2000 years ago thought of bringing a person back to life as a miracle.

God is the reason water boils at 32°F; and the reason hydrogen atoms formed after the Big Bang; and the reason for black holes, stars, planets, people, single celled organisms, atoms and quarks. No scientist has ever been able to explain why the universe gelled in the way that it did and not with some other odd set of physical rules, just as no scientist has ever been able to explain why a singularity 14 billion years ago decided to expand into the universe we know today.

I do believe in God. Not a God that sticks His finger into my personal life, except to the extent that the God I know has made me susceptible to a complex set of physical and moral rules. The God I believe in made everything, including me, but did not make my universe a perfectly safe place nor did God limit me to being a perfect person incapable of error. This leaves me the goals of making our world better and striving for perfection as a moral being (not many have reached that).

I know my response raises other questions, as it should, but this is the simplest and most direct way I can describe my belief in the "thing" (still a very limiting term) that created -- everything.


Boiled down, is this God essentially one that set-up the initial conditions of the universe and then let it run its course? True science does not yet have a complete understanding of those initial conditions and what set the ball rolling, but it's come a long way over the last 3,000 years and I suspect it won't be too long before testable theories are suggested. If and when this happens, would you cease to believe?

I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 989209 - Posted: 15 Apr 2010, 0:27:12 UTC - in response to Message 989205.  

Yes, I do believe in God.

However, the God I believe in did not make us as dolls or artworks to be enjoyed and kept on a shelf. If God had made us perfect, unable to do harm or be harmed, merely to exist in a world without strife, disease, or any other hardship, we would not be human at all. We would be nothing more than paintings or statues in a garden. The Christian Bible uses that very allegory in Genesis.

kenzieB doesn't see a reason for a God. Humans can do a lot of things, but we cannot explain, let alone create the universe and all its complex rules and interactions. God is the reason for the existence of all of this. God has no gender (that would be limiting); God has no form -- God is not an old man in a painting breathing life into humans. It is because of God that we exist and because of God that we die. If we experience good things in our lives, it is because God made us to be able to create good things and to enjoy them. If we experience bad things in our lives because God made us able to do bad things and to do something about them.

God is not miracles. God has us do things that appear to be miracles. When a vaccination for polio was found it is because there is such a thing as polio and there are people who can address the disease and find a solution. When people die on an operating table and are brought back to life by a skilled doctor, I still see that as a miracle, just as people 2000 years ago thought of bringing a person back to life as a miracle.

God is the reason water boils at 32°F; and the reason hydrogen atoms formed after the Big Bang; and the reason for black holes, stars, planets, people, single celled organisms, atoms and quarks. No scientist has ever been able to explain why the universe gelled in the way that it did and not with some other odd set of physical rules, just as no scientist has ever been able to explain why a singularity 14 billion years ago decided to expand into the universe we know today.

I do believe in God. Not a God that sticks His finger into my personal life, except to the extent that the God I know has made me susceptible to a complex set of physical and moral rules. The God I believe in made everything, including me, but did not make my universe a perfectly safe place nor did God limit me to being a perfect person incapable of error. This leaves me the goals of making our world better and striving for perfection as a moral being (not many have reached that).

I know my response raises other questions, as it should, but this is the simplest and most direct way I can describe my belief in the "thing" (still a very limiting term) that created -- everything.


Boiled down, is this God essentially one that set-up the initial conditions of the universe and then let it run its course? True science does not yet have a complete understanding of those initial conditions and what set the ball rolling, but it's come a long way over the last 3,000 years and I suspect it won't be too long before testable theories are suggested. If and when this happens, would you cease to believe?

Not at all, because your premise is incorrect. God is not simply the existence of things, as I tried to point out in my response, which you "boiled down" to it's illogical conclusion. There is a whole other "universe", so to speak, for which God is the reason, and it is not physical at all. Just as we are able to find all the physical rules of the universe, there is also a spiritual/moral/ethical component that is of equal value. Sure, it gets corrupted by people who have their own interests, but it is available to us, and we can, if we want, judge it's value. And that, too, is God.

Neither physical laws and things, nor spiritual values had to "gell" in any particular way. (For instance, see my reference to the Garden of Eden in my first paragraph.) But as things turned out, I have learned about both aspects of this creation and I have concluded from this evidence that God exists. It's not strictly faith; it is, in a sense the way things work on both physical and spiritual planes that convinces me. Whether it convinces you or anyone else, does not change my mind. And to answer your question: the more science reveals about the physical universe, to more I am convinced in God's existence.
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Message 989235 - Posted: 15 Apr 2010, 3:48:06 UTC
Last modified: 15 Apr 2010, 3:49:42 UTC

I've given this a lot of thought and decided to post here...

When I was born, my family was told my disability was too extensive and I'd never come to be a "viable member of society". They were recommended to leave me at a local hospital to be adopted as a "Ward of the State"---ie institutionalized. My mother has stated in the middle of the night she had a wide-awake vision where her vision was occluded by a bright white light and a voice told her to go get her "fourth-born boy".

Without that vision, I don't even want to speculate where I'd be today.

I have a rock-solid belief that was my God directing my Mother to come get me...nothing can change my mind there.

That is why I believe in God :)


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Message 989482 - Posted: 16 Apr 2010, 1:33:46 UTC - in response to Message 989461.  

Post II.

Oh my this is lovely!!!

A Two Universe theory ,

a physical Universe, based on the ceramic model, created by God the Potter,
and
a spiritual Universe, based on the software model, created by God the Programmer,
with the occasional updates.

Well the only thing i can say is,
"Isn't it great to have an imagination."

God is a Social Construct
which may have had survival benefits 3000 years ago.
With the advent of Science as a human pursuit, it's past time to question
the validaty of some of our older concepts, such as the nature of God and its derivations ie... religion.
They're irrelevant.

To ascribe all the dimensions of our excistence, that we don't understand yet, to an all powerful GOD
is mere wishfull thinking. Afraid of ignorance, afraid of death, afraid of insignificance, we hope that
God is a "Pack Rat" who saves everything he creates and will elevate us to heavenly bliss.

I'm certain that the Universe is more complex than anything we mere mortals could ever imagine.
"Give Science a Chance."
To complicate the universal equation with another level of complexity called God is pointless.

Cheers.

Why Does Deepak wear glasses encrusted with rhinestones?

Response II

You start with sarcasm then quickly move to belittle someone else's belief, and misinterpret another's position, all the while ignoring the reason for this thread, which is to say whether or not you believe in God, and why. The thread was not supposed to be a forum for small minded people to bash the well-supported and deeply held beliefs of others.

Take a look at your own link to a debate on this issue. Listen to what the other side says with an open mind and stop being so threatened by people who believe differently from you.
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Message 989500 - Posted: 16 Apr 2010, 2:27:55 UTC - in response to Message 989489.  

Take a look at your own link to a debate on this issue. Listen to what the other side says with an open mind and stop being so threatened by people who believe differently from you.

I'm not threatened by your beliefs, i have no beliefs.

If you have no beliefs, then why post in a thread that asks for beliefs?

If you are not theatened by the beliefs of others, then why take the time to try and show them to be insignificant in your eyes; and is that not a reflection of your own beliefs?

Your logic is pretty shabby for one who supposedly believes in science.

It's you who should listen!

Are you a child?
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Message 989526 - Posted: 16 Apr 2010, 6:27:56 UTC

I am locking this thread for a 24 hour cool down period.

I Desire Peace and Justice, Jim Scott (Mod-Ret.)
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Message 989780 - Posted: 17 Apr 2010, 7:09:15 UTC

OK, This Thread is now reopened.
If anyone feels the need to start
or continue a Squabble or go off topic
take it to PM's or E-mail to have your
personal fights.

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Message 989821 - Posted: 17 Apr 2010, 12:47:25 UTC - in response to Message 989209.  
Last modified: 17 Apr 2010, 13:21:43 UTC

Yes, I do believe in God.

However, the God I believe in did not make us as dolls or artworks to be enjoyed and kept on a shelf. If God had made us perfect, unable to do harm or be harmed, merely to exist in a world without strife, disease, or any other hardship, we would not be human at all. We would be nothing more than paintings or statues in a garden. The Christian Bible uses that very allegory in Genesis.

kenzieB doesn't see a reason for a God. Humans can do a lot of things, but we cannot explain, let alone create the universe and all its complex rules and interactions. God is the reason for the existence of all of this. God has no gender (that would be limiting); God has no form -- God is not an old man in a painting breathing life into humans. It is because of God that we exist and because of God that we die. If we experience good things in our lives, it is because God made us to be able to create good things and to enjoy them. If we experience bad things in our lives because God made us able to do bad things and to do something about them.

God is not miracles. God has us do things that appear to be miracles. When a vaccination for polio was found it is because there is such a thing as polio and there are people who can address the disease and find a solution. When people die on an operating table and are brought back to life by a skilled doctor, I still see that as a miracle, just as people 2000 years ago thought of bringing a person back to life as a miracle.

God is the reason water boils at 32°F; and the reason hydrogen atoms formed after the Big Bang; and the reason for black holes, stars, planets, people, single celled organisms, atoms and quarks. No scientist has ever been able to explain why the universe gelled in the way that it did and not with some other odd set of physical rules, just as no scientist has ever been able to explain why a singularity 14 billion years ago decided to expand into the universe we know today.

I do believe in God. Not a God that sticks His finger into my personal life, except to the extent that the God I know has made me susceptible to a complex set of physical and moral rules. The God I believe in made everything, including me, but did not make my universe a perfectly safe place nor did God limit me to being a perfect person incapable of error. This leaves me the goals of making our world better and striving for perfection as a moral being (not many have reached that).

I know my response raises other questions, as it should, but this is the simplest and most direct way I can describe my belief in the "thing" (still a very limiting term) that created -- everything.


Boiled down, is this God essentially one that set-up the initial conditions of the universe and then let it run its course? True science does not yet have a complete understanding of those initial conditions and what set the ball rolling, but it's come a long way over the last 3,000 years and I suspect it won't be too long before testable theories are suggested. If and when this happens, would you cease to believe?

Not at all, because your premise is incorrect. God is not simply the existence of things, as I tried to point out in my response, which you "boiled down" to it's illogical conclusion. There is a whole other "universe", so to speak, for which God is the reason, and it is not physical at all. Just as we are able to find all the physical rules of the universe, there is also a spiritual/moral/ethical component that is of equal value. Sure, it gets corrupted by people who have their own interests, but it is available to us, and we can, if we want, judge it's value. And that, too, is God.

Neither physical laws and things, nor spiritual values had to "gell" in any particular way. (For instance, see my reference to the Garden of Eden in my first paragraph.) But as things turned out, I have learned about both aspects of this creation and I have concluded from this evidence that God exists. It's not strictly faith; it is, in a sense the way things work on both physical and spiritual planes that convinces me. Whether it convinces you or anyone else, does not change my mind. And to answer your question: the more science reveals about the physical universe, to more I am convinced in God's existence.


Apologies, there were a lot of specific points in your previous post about physical constants and such, and a comment that appeared to suggest that your God does not interact directly with creation. I could also have been more specific by what I meant by "initial conditions", by which I meant not a thing that could "gell" into any of infinite possibilities, but one that would inevitably lead to a universe where water boils at 32 degrees Fahrenheit, where there are blacks holes, stars, planets, etc. It seems from your response that even were science able to explain how those conditions came about, your faith in God would be strengthened, which makes me wonder, is there anything that science (or indeed any human endeavor) can do to challenge your idea of God?
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 989828 - Posted: 17 Apr 2010, 13:02:50 UTC

I believe in God.......
And I don't have to justify it to you.

I just have to confess it to you.

My beliefs are my own, as are yours.

WHY?

I don't have to engage in a debate team to say why.

I just do. Simple, honest, and true.

They way I was brought up, what has happened in my life to further that belief, what I have come to believe today.

God watches over me every day. He watches me fail, and then he picks me back up so I can try again. But he loves me every minute of every failure that I make.

It is nothing that can be quantified or justified, just testified.

Nobody else has dried my tears, or given me the reason to cry more.

Truth, understanding, belief.

I will not try to force my beliefs on anybody. But I will espouse mine.


"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

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Message 989905 - Posted: 17 Apr 2010, 19:57:15 UTC - in response to Message 989821.  
Last modified: 17 Apr 2010, 20:35:54 UTC

Apologies, there were a lot of specific points in your previous post about physical constants and such, and a comment that appeared to suggest that your God does not interact directly with creation. I could also have been more specific by what I meant by "initial conditions", by which I meant not a thing that could "gell" into any of infinite possibilities, but one that would inevitably lead to a universe where water boils at 32 degrees Fahrenheit, where there are blacks holes, stars, planets, etc. It seems from your response that even were science able to explain how those conditions came about, your faith in God would be strengthened, which makes me wonder, is there anything that science (or indeed any human endeavor) can do to challenge your idea of God?

No need to apologize for my failure to better explain my understanding of God and the universe, since it is a pretty broad subject. In my defense, this forum is very limiting when trying to explain such complex ideas, which different people approach from different ways. For instance, msattler seems to approach his understanding mostly on faith. My understanding is based on observations of the known universe and it's laws, and trying to reason the "reasons". Many scientists have theorized that hydrogen atoms did not have to form after the big bang, and water did not have to have the quality of boiling at 32ºF. Christian philosophers (I am not Christian) have approached these questions from knowledge of the world and applied reason. I am not the first to do so.

As for your question about science proving God does not exist, I don't see the two as mutually exclusive. Yes, I know people point to Genesis and say those things could not happen, but my answer to that is, "so what"? The stories in the Bible are meant to teach lessons in behavior, they are not science or history (and if some believe they are historical, that's OK, as long as the spiritual lessons are not lost). So, no, science and human advancements do not cancel out God, but show how complex and comprehensive God is.

Reading this response, I have focused mostly on the physical aspects of the question, but much of what I am saying also applies to the spiritual/moral/ethical aspects of God's universal laws.
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Message 989924 - Posted: 17 Apr 2010, 21:42:42 UTC - in response to Message 989905.  

Apologies, there were a lot of specific points in your previous post about physical constants and such, and a comment that appeared to suggest that your God does not interact directly with creation. I could also have been more specific by what I meant by "initial conditions", by which I meant not a thing that could "gell" into any of infinite possibilities, but one that would inevitably lead to a universe where water boils at 32 degrees Fahrenheit, where there are blacks holes, stars, planets, etc. It seems from your response that even were science able to explain how those conditions came about, your faith in God would be strengthened, which makes me wonder, is there anything that science (or indeed any human endeavor) can do to challenge your idea of God?

No need to apologize for my failure to better explain my understanding of God and the universe, since it is a pretty broad subject. In my defense, this forum is very limiting when trying to explain such complex ideas, which different people approach from different ways. For instance, msattler seems to approach his understanding mostly on faith. My understanding is based on observations of the known universe and it's laws, and trying to reason the "reasons". Many scientists have theorized that hydrogen atoms did not have to form after the big bang, and water did not have to have the quality of boiling at 32ºF. Christian philosophers (I am not Christian) have approached these questions from knowledge of the world and applied reason. I am not the first to do so.

As for your question about science proving God does not exist, I don't see the two as mutually exclusive. Yes, I know people point to Genesis and say those things could not happen, but my answer to that is, "so what"? The stories in the Bible are meant to teach lessons in behavior, they are not science or history (and if some believe they are historical, that's OK, as long as the spiritual lessons are not lost). So, no, science and human advancements do not cancel out God, but show how complex and comprehensive God is.

Reading this response, I have focused mostly on the physical aspects of the question, but much of what I am saying also applies to the spiritual/moral/ethical aspects of God's universal laws.


Well I'm not sure science will ever be in a position to prove God does not exist, but it may be able to prove that there is nothing supernatural about the universe's creation (and its physical laws) or how we interact with it (including our spiritual/moral/ethical beliefs and feelings). I suspect that these proofs will be established at some point, and that's why I don't share your belief in a god of any type.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 989992 - Posted: 18 Apr 2010, 2:07:20 UTC - in response to Message 989924.  

Well I'm not sure science will ever be in a position to prove God does not exist, but it may be able to prove that there is nothing supernatural about the universe's creation (and its physical laws) or how we interact with it (including our spiritual/moral/ethical beliefs and feelings). I suspect that these proofs will be established at some point, and that's why I don't share your belief in a god of any type.

The stated purpose of this thread is to say why one does or does not believe in God. It wasn't meant, and should not be used to try and convince others, or to put down beliefs, just to try and explain, in this limited space, one's beliefs. I tried to do that, and so have you, but you don't have to agree with me or I with you. Perhaps someday some experience or proof will settle the issue for those who are not convinced . . . but that day has not come.
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Message 991202 - Posted: 22 Apr 2010, 21:40:07 UTC - in response to Message 991148.  

It's you who should listen!

Are you a child?

Why do you ask?

Since you asked, I was wondering if you are a child because your remark sounded like something a child would say on a playground when that child has no good response to a point that hits the mark.

Are you a priest?

Cheers!

:O}~

No, I am not a priest, I am only a man who is comfortable with my belief in God. I don't need to belittle the beliefs of others, nor do I need to counsel, cajole, persuade or forgive anyone else for their beliefs. I did find it useful to answer the question posed in this thread, as it helps me to hear what others find difficult to grasp about my own beliefs. It does not help to have my views simply ridiculed. Do you understand the difference?
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Message 991260 - Posted: 23 Apr 2010, 0:37:08 UTC - in response to Message 991202.  

I don't need to belittle the beliefs of others, nor do I need to counsel, cajole, persuade or forgive anyone else for their beliefs.

Well said, Tom.

It does not help to have my views simply ridiculed.

Well said, Tom.

Do you understand the difference?

Well asked, Tom.
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Message 991402 - Posted: 23 Apr 2010, 16:57:24 UTC - in response to Message 988734.  
Last modified: 23 Apr 2010, 16:58:15 UTC

Yes, I do believe in God.

However, the God I believe in did not make us as dolls or artworks to be enjoyed and kept on a shelf. If God had made us perfect, unable to do harm or be harmed, merely to exist in a world without strife, disease, or any other hardship, we would not be human at all. We would be nothing more than paintings or statues in a garden. The Christian Bible uses that very allegory in Genesis.

kenzieB doesn't see a reason for a God. Humans can do a lot of things, but we cannot explain, let alone create the universe and all its complex rules and interactions. God is the reason for the existence of all of this. God has no gender (that would be limiting); God has no form -- God is not an old man in a painting breathing life into humans. It is because of God that we exist and because of God that we die. If we experience good things in our lives, it is because God made us to be able to create good things and to enjoy them. If we experience bad things in our lives because God made us able to do bad things and to do something about them.

God is not miracles. God has us do things that appear to be miracles. When a vaccination for polio was found it is because there is such a thing as polio and there are people who can address the disease and find a solution. When people die on an operating table and are brought back to life by a skilled doctor, I still see that as a miracle, just as people 2000 years ago thought of bringing a person back to life as a miracle.

God is the reason water boils at 32°F; and the reason hydrogen atoms formed after the Big Bang; and the reason for black holes, stars, planets, people, single celled organisms, atoms and quarks. No scientist has ever been able to explain why the universe gelled in the way that it did and not with some other odd set of physical rules, just as no scientist has ever been able to explain why a singularity 14 billion years ago decided to expand into the universe we know today.

I do believe in God. Not a God that sticks His finger into my personal life, except to the extent that the God I know has made me susceptible to a complex set of physical and moral rules. The God I believe in made everything, including me, but did not make my universe a perfectly safe place nor did God limit me to being a perfect person incapable of error. This leaves me the goals of making our world better and striving for perfection as a moral being (not many have reached that).

I know my response raises other questions, as it should, but this is the simplest and most direct way I can describe my belief in the "thing" (still a very limiting term) that created -- everything.


Tom, that is without a doubt the most convincing argument for the existence of God that I've ever heard. <snip>...

Thanks.

Well, not really.

The first paragraph is not a reason to believe in God at all. It is merely a statement to justify his apparent non-existence. God would behave much the same way if he/she wasn't there. Also, I would dismiss out of hand anything proof of God that relies on the Bible as that book is full of contractions, errors and large parts of it are missing.

The second paragraph states that it is because of God that we live and breathe, yet evidence shows that evolutionary processes are responsible for that. Yes, there are lots of things that humans cannot explain, but by pasting over that ignorance with a God band-aid isn't the best way to go about relieving that ignorance. "We don't understand that bit so it must be God" in my mind it is not much different from when people thought lighting was caused by Thor's hammer.

Paragraph three discusses miracles which are merely events for which no obvious explanation is available. Changing the definition of miracle to 'incredible things people do' isn't any argument for God. It is merely a demonstration of our incredible success as a species in evolutionary terms.

Paragraph four shows a total misunderstanding of Science and the nature of the universe. It goes on the assumption that the universe was somehow predetermined to end up with us in it. Not only is this a totally arrogant assumption, it is also a remnant from the days of the Heliocentric version of the solar system, only on a grander scale.

We are here because we adapted to the universe. Not the other way around. If the universe were different, we would not be here to marvel at how well suited we are to it. It is like a puddle going on about how well the hole it is in is shaped to fit it.

Paragraph five is not an argument for God at all. Most of the logic in these arguments are tautological rhetoric. They go on the pre-assumption that there is a God and then go to explain why there is no evidence for him. If anyone did this for any other object they would be given psychological help.

The most liberating thing you can do in life is realise that there is no god and that you are entirely responsible for your own life and choices. :)
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Message 991462 - Posted: 23 Apr 2010, 21:20:22 UTC - in response to Message 991402.  
Last modified: 23 Apr 2010, 21:22:05 UTC

Yes, I do believe in God.

However, the God I believe in did not make us as dolls or artworks to be enjoyed and kept on a shelf. If God had made us perfect, unable to do harm or be harmed, merely to exist in a world without strife, disease, or any other hardship, we would not be human at all. We would be nothing more than paintings or statues in a garden. The Christian Bible uses that very allegory in Genesis.

kenzieB doesn't see a reason for a God. Humans can do a lot of things, but we cannot explain, let alone create the universe and all its complex rules and interactions. God is the reason for the existence of all of this. God has no gender (that would be limiting); God has no form -- God is not an old man in a painting breathing life into humans. It is because of God that we exist and because of God that we die. If we experience good things in our lives, it is because God made us to be able to create good things and to enjoy them. If we experience bad things in our lives because God made us able to do bad things and to do something about them.

God is not miracles. God has us do things that appear to be miracles. When a vaccination for polio was found it is because there is such a thing as polio and there are people who can address the disease and find a solution. When people die on an operating table and are brought back to life by a skilled doctor, I still see that as a miracle, just as people 2000 years ago thought of bringing a person back to life as a miracle.

God is the reason water boils at 32°F; and the reason hydrogen atoms formed after the Big Bang; and the reason for black holes, stars, planets, people, single celled organisms, atoms and quarks. No scientist has ever been able to explain why the universe gelled in the way that it did and not with some other odd set of physical rules, just as no scientist has ever been able to explain why a singularity 14 billion years ago decided to expand into the universe we know today.

I do believe in God. Not a God that sticks His finger into my personal life, except to the extent that the God I know has made me susceptible to a complex set of physical and moral rules. The God I believe in made everything, including me, but did not make my universe a perfectly safe place nor did God limit me to being a perfect person incapable of error. This leaves me the goals of making our world better and striving for perfection as a moral being (not many have reached that).

I know my response raises other questions, as it should, but this is the simplest and most direct way I can describe my belief in the "thing" (still a very limiting term) that created -- everything.


Tom, that is without a doubt the most convincing argument for the existence of God that I've ever heard. <snip>...

Thanks.

Well, not really.

Considering he said that is without a doubt the most convincing argument for the existence of God that I've ever heard as opposed to that is without a doubt the most convincing argument for the existence of God that anyone ever heard you are mistaken - unless you believe he was being disingenuous.
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Message boards : Politics : WHY do you/don't you believe in GOD?


 
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