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Message 983777 - Posted: 26 Mar 2010, 5:32:29 UTC - in response to Message 983752.  
Last modified: 26 Mar 2010, 5:33:34 UTC

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
HUH?
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
I had thought you would hold the sanctity of your own democratic proccess to a higher standard.
More proof that the right doesn't give a damn about the well being of citizens or their role in a free society.
Just keep the money rolling in.

First the left and the right both have been bad in the past. Obama is spending money like it's water and Bush signed almost everything that was placed before him.
To make it simple we do have the most corrupt government money can buy. The big problem is the government most of the time will not investigate it's self and the FBI only hunts down the bad cases and then gives them to the government to prosecute.
Taking the money away from them will not solve the problem. What we need is a way to put each one on a lie detector before we elect them.

Let Me See Obama signs Health care in to law and that cuts spending and lowers the deficit in one fell swoop and Republicans who get campaign donations from the insurance industry fight tooth and nail to kill It, stir up fear(on the capitol building balcony on Cspan) and spread outright lies to get what they want, Bush spent more than Obama by spending the Surplus that Clinton had created and Bush and the Republicans created the mess on Wall Street and wanted to privatize the Social Security Administration(SSA) after people lost all of their money that was invested into 401K funds that were heading for a collapse that caused the economic mess that Obama our President inherited from Bush. The No bid contracts need to be stopped, A small Jobs bill was created, among other things, the Stimulus Bill has reversed the slide in unemployment by about 32,000 a month or so back. In 2011 all the Troops from Iraq will come home as agreed, which will help lower the Pentagons spending, Which will only leave Afghanistan where the 9/11 plotters were sheltered by the Taliban who became our enemies as they would not give up their guests who murdered nearly 3,000 people on 09/11/2001.

Please tell me what you are smoking because I want some. Obama is spending money like water and is cooking the books. Much of what he claims he will save comes from eliminating fraud. Why didn't he eliminate the fraud first? It because he doesn't have a plan for doing it.

As for the insurance and medical people, they were in Obama's corner till he turned on them and they found out Obama was out to destroy their industry.

At least Bush was attempting to find a solution for Social Security. The way I see it, we have about 6 years left and possibly less. If action is not taken very soon there will be no Social Security.

Bill Clinton signed the bill that caused the home loan problem, Bush attempted several times to fix the problem but was never able to get anything through congress. Even I knew it was going to happen a year or two before it did. I didn't expect it to be as bad as it was because I was unaware of some of the things going on in the background.

Obama will still be in Iraq in 2011 because they are not ready to go it alone. They may not be in combat but will still be training.

If you read New Deal or Raw Deal or study the Carter administration you would see that stimulus of the type the republicans and democrats are applying will not solve our problems. Any improvement we are currently seeing is natural recover. If anything the recovery is being harmed by the stimulus. FDR turned a recession into the Great Depression by doing the same thing Obama is doing. Now Obama is working on a Double Dip Recession with the regulations coming down the tube. Growing business is what will bring on the recovery but at the moment the only thing that's growing is government. I wish it wasn't so and I would hope we could learn from the mistakes of history. Brace your self because it's going to be a long one.

In other words the word of the non partisan Congressional Budget Office is a lie then? Yer dreaming and paranoid.

I'll see You in 7, It is solvent as Bush and His cronies on Wall Street wanted the money, Why? Cause It's a Myth... Myths and Realities about Social Security and Privatization

The Realities About Social Security's Solvency
Social Security is a successful program that will be able to pay benefits for decades to come. This year Social Security has an accumulated surplus of over $2 trillion. By 2016, that surplus will be over $4.2 trillion or more than four times the amount needed to pay benefits in that year. While payments from Social Security will begin to exceed Social Security tax revenues in about 2017, Social Security will have sufficient reserves to pay benefits until 2041. Even after 2041, Social Security will have enough money to pay nearly 75 percent of the benefits owed, according to the Social Security actuaries.

The Congressional Budget Office has concluded that Social Security will be solvent even longer, through 2052, and will be able to pay nearly 80 percent of benefits thereafter. Moreover, Social Security money is held in the safest investment available - U.S. government securities. Those securities are legal obligations of the U.S. to pay principal and interest to the holder of the bonds. The securities have the same status as U.S. government bonds held by any other investor, including individual Americans and pension funds, and the Social Security Trust Fund has a legal obligation to pay full benefits as long as it has the funds to do so.


Not according to the Washington Post, Clinton was President then sure and the Republicans had a commanding majority and could have done an override at any time they wanted and Clinton knew It, the Glass-Steagall Act was doomed and there was no stopping It.

We will not be there, Deaths are down and life there is returning to normal according to CNN, exports of oil is almost to prewar levels and none is coming here, the oil Iraq exports goes to China and other countries.

On FDR, Yer totally backwards, It was Hoover that saw the start of the Great Depression, Who do You think signed the Glass Steagall Act? It was FDR, Hoover wouldn't do hardly anything.

Glass–Steagall Act wrote:
The Banking Act of 1933 was a law that established the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) in the United States and introduced banking reforms, some of which were designed to control speculation[1]. It is most commonly known as the Glass–Steagall Act, after its legislative sponsors, Carter Glass and Henry B. Steagall.

Some provisions of the Act, such as Regulation Q, which allowed the Federal Reserve to regulate interest rates in savings accounts, were repealed by the Depository Institutions Deregulation and Monetary Control Act of 1980. Provisions that prohibit a bank holding company from owning other financial companies were repealed on November 12, 1999, by the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act.[2][3]


In other words bring back regulations on Wall Street and on Banks is a bad thing? Like on Wall Street and It's derivatives?

Bring Back Glass-Steagall wrote:
In 1933, amid the depths of the Great Depression, Senator Carter Glass of Virginia and Representative Henry Bascom Steagall of Alabama crafted a law to separate commercial and investment banking, the Glass-Steagall Act. In most ways, Glass and Steagall were typical Democrats: ardent segregationists with a populist bent for poor whites, but also connected to monied interests and deeply motivated to save the financial system that had fallen apart a few years earlier.

In 1999, led by Senator Phil Gramm of Texas, another southerner but without the populist politics, and one of the best friends American bankers ever had, congress overwhelmingly repealed the Glass-Steagall Act and created the financial free-for-all that has led banks to offer, along with savings and checking accounts, securities, stock sales, and insurance. The repeal of Glass-Steagall, it is not an overstatement to suggest, has been a principal reason for the financial crises that have fallen upon the United States today, and shows the deep dangers of deregulation.

One of the principal causes of the Wall Street Crash and Depression of the 1920s and 1930s was irresponsible banking activity. Due to a massive expansion of the economy in the years after World War I, the corporate and financial class found itself with vast sums of surplus capital--money that was not being invested for productive purposes. Looking for ways to get more return on that capital, these men turned to financial speculation. At that time, there was no separation between commercial banking like offering bank accounts or home loans to local communities, or investment banking like selling securities or stocks.


I've heard quite enough of You twisting and trying to revise History.
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Message 983851 - Posted: 26 Mar 2010, 8:11:14 UTC

CBO has to compute the cost of a bill under the assumptions that they are given by congress. If congress gives them garbage, they get garbage out. I think thats wrong but it's the way things work.

Social Security is already running a deficit this year and the lock box money has all been spent. Currently we have 3 to 4 workers for each person on Social Security. You can kill every other government program including welfare and healthcare or you can put it on the credit card. If we put it on the credit card we will have massive inflation. I don't have an easy solution to the problem because we have waited to long to fix it. Any one who ignores these facts is telling you a lie.

I know a republican congress gave Clinton the bill and I don't defend either party for that.

Iraq still has to face Iran and the tribes of Iraq are still not getting along all the way. It takes years to build generals and if we don't do it right we will see Iraq go the way of Vietnam. The reason will not be the same but the results will be.

It was the Federal reserve that started the Great Depression, Hover made some wrong moves and FDR copied Hovers moves. Three wrongs don't make a right. I have been leaning a good deal about this time period and it mirrors what we are doing today so I expect many of the same results.

Wall street would have never had all the paper to play with if the government had not insisted the banks make loans to people who couldn't afford them. The banks knew better but the Government insisted. Governments solution is alway to take more control and push us closer to communism. If thats the type of world you want to live in, fine. I still recall Russia's fall and all that government control didn't do them one bit of good. What makes you thing the people in Washington can do any better?
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Message 983870 - Posted: 26 Mar 2010, 9:58:43 UTC - in response to Message 983851.  

CBO has to compute the cost of a bill under the assumptions that they are given by congress. If congress gives them garbage, they get garbage out. I think thats wrong but it's the way things work.

Social Security is already running a deficit this year and the lock box money has all been spent. Currently we have 3 to 4 workers for each person on Social Security. You can kill every other government program including welfare and healthcare or you can put it on the credit card. If we put it on the credit card we will have massive inflation. I don't have an easy solution to the problem because we have waited to long to fix it. Any one who ignores these facts is telling you a lie.

I know a republican congress gave Clinton the bill and I don't defend either party for that.

Iraq still has to face Iran and the tribes of Iraq are still not getting along all the way. It takes years to build generals and if we don't do it right we will see Iraq go the way of Vietnam. The reason will not be the same but the results will be.

It was the Federal reserve that started the Great Depression, Hover made some wrong moves and FDR copied Hovers moves. Three wrongs don't make a right. I have been leaning a good deal about this time period and it mirrors what we are doing today so I expect many of the same results.

Wall street would have never had all the paper to play with if the government had not insisted the banks make loans to people who couldn't afford them. The banks knew better but the Government insisted. Governments solution is alway to take more control and push us closer to communism. If thats the type of world you want to live in, fine. I still recall Russia's fall and all that government control didn't do them one bit of good. What makes you thing the people in Washington can do any better?

Look It's Hoover(as in J. Edgar Hoover or the vacuum cleaner or the Dam on the Colorado River that has a Bridge being built nearby for hwy US93) and My Mother lived back then and It was a lack of Banking regulations in the 20's that started It all and Yes I'm in favor of reinstating parts of Glass Steagall that were repealed by the Republicans in 1999, As the Banks did want to do things that they shouldn't and can't be trusted to do on their own(unregulated banks are like a fox guarding the hen-house, not good), Derivatives trading and such needs to be regulated, You wouldn't know communist if It walked up to You and kissed You, You just say that of ideas You don't like. Both My parents were alive in WWII(Mom was born in 1922, Dad in 1918), My Dad served in the US Army in the 368th Medical from North Africa(1942) to Occupied Germany(1946), Mom said FDR was the best President we ever had, He fought the NAZI's and gave His life for the world You ungrateful whelp. He did not do what You claim as It's revisionist CRAP, Cause It didn't happen like that, My Dad was a Republican and He never blamed FDR for anything(Nor did My Grandpa, My Grandma or anyone in My extended family, I'd have been told if there were), He volunteered on His own for Service in the Army in February 1942 as He could drive a stick, type and be in charge of people, He became a Corporal and got commendations for His service in WWII from His superiors in the US Army, As He helped with our soldiers and POW's in the Hospital too. Yes I'm very proud of My parents generation.
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Message 983873 - Posted: 26 Mar 2010, 10:12:19 UTC

At last! A system even more liable to abuse, than in the UK! The 'Mother of Parliaments' is very pleased that it's offspring has learned well. Dena, how little you really know, is quite worrying. There are none so blind, as those who WILL NOT see.



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Message 983922 - Posted: 26 Mar 2010, 13:45:13 UTC - in response to Message 983873.  

anyone ever read Neil Stephensons Snow Crash. our world seems to be turning into the one he made up


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Message 983978 - Posted: 26 Mar 2010, 15:53:25 UTC - in response to Message 983752.  


As for the insurance and medical people, they were in Obama's corner till he turned on them and they found out Obama was out to destroy their industry.


The day after the bill was completed, shares in that industry went up.
How does President Obama destroy an industry by mandating 40 million more insurance policies?
STOP WATCHING FAUX NETWORK! IT WILL FURTHER ROT YOUR BRAIN!






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I fight them because they are fascists.
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Message 983982 - Posted: 26 Mar 2010, 15:59:45 UTC - in response to Message 983851.  

[quote]
It was the Federal reserve that started the Great Depression, Hover made some wrong moves and FDR copied Hovers moves. quote]

Economists with Master's degrees and PHD's in the field of economics have never come to any conclusions about the cause of the Great Depression in all these years, yet, some idiot on the boob tube spouts some drivel while looking into the camera using his serious face and now it's all cleared up in your mind.

STOP WATCHING FAUX NETWORK! IT WILL FURTHER ROT YOUR BRAIN!




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I fight them because they are fascists.
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Message 984005 - Posted: 26 Mar 2010, 16:47:15 UTC - in response to Message 983982.  

actually they came to the conclusion that allowing people to borrow money withotu collateral and allowing them to invest 100% on the stock market was a bad idea. Also playing without any rules was a bad idea. there's a reason that we didnt hit another Great Depression until recent times when once again we got rid of all that silly awful ugly regulation and let the "free" markets do what they may. And boy did they ever.

There is one sure thing about unregulated Capitalism. People will lose everything they have becuase there will be folks that will intentionally screw over everyone they know just to make money for themselves


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Message 984014 - Posted: 26 Mar 2010, 17:15:58 UTC

If you consider Milton Friedman rotting by brain, so be it. The Federal reserve bank started to operate in 1914, a year or two before the Great Depression. The Fed played with the interest rates in the year before the great depression going from 3.5% to 6%, I can dig out the book and give you a blow by blow if you want, but that act cause bank to run low on cash and stop providing loans. It is more complex than this short description but that was the trigger. It would have been a normal short lived recession, but the government couldn't keep their fingers out of it and prevented the recovery. On the other side, all of the other countries including Canada showed far more wisdom and let thing recover naturally and didn't have the extended recession that we did.

Never trust a short term change in the stock market to judge the long term health of the industry or country. The Hunt brothers tried to corner the silver market and drove the price of silver over $50 an ounce, close to $100 in todays prices. Silver is no where near that today. Traders push the price around all the time to make money on the short term. Over the long term they are unable to hold price and the market will find it's true level.

What shocks me is how little we know about our own country. I am not exactly dumb but I was never exposed to much of the history of our own country. Fox news gave me a few clues where to start looking and I am finding a political group that has been operating in our country for a hundred years and most people don't have a clue what it's goals are. If you think I am out of my mind, you need to run down a copy of Woodrow Wilson and the roots of modern liberalism . It shows through the over 100 year old writings of Woodrow Wilson the path America has taken for about the last 100 years. It is not a book I enjoyed reading but most of my life there was something going very wrong in our country and I now understand it. Anyone who argues American politics without reading this book has only half the facts.

FDR was power hungry. He is the only president that ran more that two terms. if that's such a good idea, why did we change the constitution to prevent it? It was done in Trumans administration so don't blame it on the Republicans. The power grabs FDR made while he was in office were at first blocked by the courts, but he outlive the judges and was able to replace the court so his changes were rubber stamped. We are still living with laws that are unconstitutional, but I don't think they will be brought before the courts because they have been in place so long. The constitution gave the Federal government very few powers. The don't include changing us to a socialist government.
I have little respect for someone who took the oath of office to protect the constitution and then turned around and violated it with almost every decision he made. You have to decide if the constitution is as important to you as it is to me.
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Message 984050 - Posted: 26 Mar 2010, 18:11:46 UTC - in response to Message 984014.  

A little refresher. Hoover was president in 1929 and his policy was hands off let the economy fix itself. Unfortuantely, that policy didnt work because of the excessive losses on the stock market and the loss of work by average americans.
For businesses to work they need to make things that people will buy and and have people that can actually afford to buy the product they make. Businesses had neither. As much as you'd like to revise history. nothing did happen until 1933 after Hoover was ousted handly in the 1932 elections. Roosevelts policies enacted in 1933, 3 1/2 years after the initial crash in 1929 were the first glimpse of any economic recovery. Hoovers policy was no more than staring at a drowned person and telling the paramedics to let him recover on his own. Sometimes its pretty easy to see bad advice for what it is

You may also note that in 1937 when Roosevelt started pulling back on the New Deal programs we dropped into a second depression.

The Economy is a fickle thing. Yet the FDIC, SEC, and other gov't institutions provide the average American with at least a sense of security for their own money/wealth.


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Message 984056 - Posted: 26 Mar 2010, 18:21:51 UTC - in response to Message 984050.  

A little refresher. Hoover was president in 1929 and his policy was hands off let the economy fix itself. Unfortuantely, that policy didnt work because of the excessive losses on the stock market and the loss of work by average americans.
For businesses to work they need to make things that people will buy and and have people that can actually afford to buy the product they make. Businesses had neither. As much as you'd like to revise history. nothing did happen until 1933 after Hoover was ousted handly in the 1932 elections. Roosevelts policies enacted in 1933, 3 1/2 years after the initial crash in 1929 were the first glimpse of any economic recovery. Hoovers policy was no more than staring at a drowned person and telling the paramedics to let him recover on his own. Sometimes its pretty easy to see bad advice for what it is

You may also note that in 1937 when Roosevelt started pulling back on the New Deal programs we dropped into a second depression.

The Economy is a fickle thing. Yet the FDIC, SEC, and other gov't institutions provide the average American with at least a sense of security for their own money/wealth.

He didn't pull back, he passed the Wagner act that drove labor cost off the scale. That would cause any business to lose interest.

As for Hover, he wanted a balanced budget and didn't want to cut anything so he bumped up taxes at a time when the country couldn't handle it.

It is very easy to know what a government action will do but you have to get away from the government pump priming that we are still using today. The private sector grows the economy and the public sector contracts the economy. We are currently growing the public sector so it may be a while before we recover.
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Message 984067 - Posted: 26 Mar 2010, 18:46:25 UTC - in response to Message 984056.  
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I'm glad you admit that hoover did nothing to solve the problem. I'll sleep well tonight
It is very easy to know what a government action will do but you have to get away from the government pump priming that we are still using today. The private sector grows the economy and the public sector contracts the economy. We are currently growing the public sector so it may be a while before we recover

Straight from the Capitalist manifesto?

theres no fine line for capitalists when it comes to others money. Its a big line called regulation. Heck how else can you explain the exotic paper that wall street fed banks in the last decade. it was all garbage and it wasn't regulated because once again our money manipulators found a way to get around what little regulation that Bush was willing to support


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Message 984089 - Posted: 26 Mar 2010, 20:43:40 UTC - in response to Message 984067.  

I'm glad you admit that hoover did nothing to solve the problem. I'll sleep well tonight
It is very easy to know what a government action will do but you have to get away from the government pump priming that we are still using today. The private sector grows the economy and the public sector contracts the economy. We are currently growing the public sector so it may be a while before we recover

Straight from the Capitalist manifesto?

theres no fine line for capitalists when it comes to others money. Its a big line called regulation. Heck how else can you explain the exotic paper that wall street fed banks in the last decade. it was all garbage and it wasn't regulated because once again our money manipulators found a way to get around what little regulation that Bush was willing to support

I can give FDR a little rope because the economy was not well understood in those days. We learned a good deal from those mistakes and we now have the tools to recover from a recession if we use them. Politicians don't like to use them because it means limited government and less control, Regan didn't get everything right, but was able to show us the idea was sound.

I am after the truth and that means both parties can be wrong. I have no attachment to one party or the other and a person does not deserve my backing just because he has republican before his name.
If more people would take that attitude I don't think we would have all the problems we have today.

Running a country is not a game of football. It is instead a job where you have to understand any change you make may have an effect on many other things. Some of the effects may be good and some will be bad. You have to consider the bad effects carefully. Just on the news, the health care bill is going to cause AT&T to have a billion dollar write off. How many jobs is that going to cost? AT&T is not the only company with this problem so will health care offset this massive loss of jobs? Congress didn't even consider this when they made their vote. For that matter, much of congress didn't even know what was in the bill. This time it was the Democrats, next time it might be the Republicans. Tell me how we can select people of good morals who are wise and will not cause additional destruction of our country.
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