How could we talk with ET ?

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Petit Soleil
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Message 39265 - Posted: 22 Oct 2004, 23:35:40 UTC
Last modified: 22 Oct 2004, 23:36:00 UTC

Do you think communicating with ET to be possible ?

I have posted this on another thread and I thought it
could be an interresting discussion.

I personaly belive it is impossible.

---

Communicating with ET ? Never.

Have we ever been able to "communicate" with not so stupid species
here on earth ? Appart from teaching animals things using threats...
How could we ever communicate with ET ? We are all enjoying whales
singing but after years of listenning, analysing, observing, watching,
recording, ecetera, what do we know about their "language" ? Nothing.

Now how could we expect to be able to communicate with a living things
god knows how many LY away from US, where their and our radio signal
would takes years to reach, not knowing what they look like, if they
have ears, their culture, ecetera...

SETI is a nice project for it might prove that "intelligent" life in the
universe exist, but it would in no way allow us to Communicate with them.
It would require years and years of mutual analyses and observations, assuming
that it is possible, and that we don't kill each others for a stupid but
most probable misunderstanding...

I am thinking, is there a thread about that ? I guess not.
I am going to start one right now, using what I've just wrote.

Regards
Marc

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Message 39288 - Posted: 23 Oct 2004, 0:39:45 UTC - in response to Message 39265.  
Last modified: 23 Oct 2004, 0:41:52 UTC

> Do you think communicating with ET to be possible ?
>
> I have posted this on another thread and I thought it
> could be an interresting discussion.
>
> I personaly belive it is impossible.
>
> ---
>
> Communicating with ET ? Never.
>
> Have we ever been able to "communicate" with not so stupid species
> here on earth ? Appart from teaching animals things using threats...
> How could we ever communicate with ET ? We are all enjoying whales
> singing but after years of listenning, analysing, observing, watching,
> recording, ecetera, what do we know about their "language" ? Nothing.
>
> Now how could we expect to be able to communicate with a living things
> god knows how many LY away from US, where their and our radio signal
> would takes years to reach, not knowing what they look like, if they
> have ears, their culture, ecetera...
>
> SETI is a nice project for it might prove that "intelligent" life in the
> universe exist, but it would in no way allow us to Communicate with them.
> It would require years and years of mutual analyses and observations,
> assuming
> that it is possible, and that we don't kill each others for a stupid but
> most probable misunderstanding...
>
> I am thinking, is there a thread about that ? I guess not.
> I am going to start one right now, using what I've just wrote.
>
> Regards
> Marc
>
Animals (this also includes the cetaceas)have know direct methode of discribing there surroundings(Eg: Point here ,Oh thats an apple or pick up this ,Oh thats gernade)Humans do.Explorers comunicating with new other peoples years ago used this methode of translation.Also vertually all people on earth have some form of written language.
Now for the sake of argument I'll assume that a species that has the technology to transmit over the vastness of space should most likley have a written language or at the least the abillity to discribe thier surroundings.
Lets only hope that if whales start communicating to earth ,we have a vulcan standing by.
Note:English and litature was not my strong subject in school.
I Refuse to hold myself responsible for any of my actions.

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Message 39292 - Posted: 23 Oct 2004, 1:06:39 UTC - in response to Message 39288.  
Last modified: 23 Oct 2004, 1:08:29 UTC

> Animals (this also includes the cetaceas)have know direct methode of
> discribing there surroundings(Eg: Point here ,Oh thats an apple or pick up
> this ,Oh thats gernade)Humans do.Explorers comunicating with new other peoples
> years ago used this methode of translation.Also vertually all people on earth
> have some form of written language.
> Now for the sake of argument I'll assume that a species that has the
> technology to transmit over the vastness of space should most likley have a
> written language or at the least the abillity to discribe thier surroundings.
> Lets only hope that if whales start communicating to earth ,we have a vulcan
> standing by.
> Note:English and litature was not my strong subject in school.

No problem I fully understand your point.

The gold plate we have put on voyager is discribing our surrounding,
who we are, etc.

But what if the ETs who found it see at a different electromagnetic wave
spectrum then us? This plate would be nothing but a round golden plate
for them...

What would a round golden plate really mean for them ? Who knows, it might
be a strong symbol of their "god" and they could all start fighting just to touch it...
It could be anything.

What if they are very very stupid and they send it back to god (us) with
a sample of the bacteria currently destroying their civilisation, with
a "meesage" asking for help ?

How would we react to this bacteria? How we would understand their message?

What I mean is the possibilities of not being able to "understand" each
others are infinite.

I always find it very funny when I watch a star treck kind of movie where
everybody are humanoid and speaks english...
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Message 39296 - Posted: 23 Oct 2004, 1:26:12 UTC - in response to Message 39265.  
Last modified: 23 Oct 2004, 1:28:40 UTC

I think this project can be best described in one word. Hope.
First given the vastness of space you wouldnt be able to establish a meaningful dialogue thru radio waves. Present day Star Trek is science fiction and "subspace communication" doesnt exist. Seti would only be able to detect (and hopefully prove) ET's existance.
Now what are the chances of detecting an alien signal? Almost nil given all the variables such as distance/time traveled, location, effects of gravity and intervening objects, power and frequency of signal. Unless the origin of the signal is 'relatively close' in astronomical terms I believe it would be totally up to random chance. Its like spinning a roulette wheel and hoping it lands on your number except there are hundreds of billions of numbers on the wheel. The odds are astronomical and it would take extreme luck. Lets say Planet X sends out a radio signal. The frequency of the transmission would have to be in the range that we are listening to. Then it would have to be aimed at the spot where Earth would be in X amount of years from where we are now, (where x=distance in light years from Planet X to Earth). The signal would have to be powerful enough to reach us before it could dissipate. The signal may be bent in direction, shifted in frequency, absorbed/deflected by all sorts of things like gravity, dust, etc. Then after all of this if the signal did reach Earth we would have to have an antenna up and running and recording, pointed in the exact direction of the incoming signal at the exact time the signal comes in, at the freq we are listening to, and last long enough for a proper analysis. You have a much better chance of hitting all 7 numbers (or whatever) in your local lottery.
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Message 39301 - Posted: 23 Oct 2004, 1:41:25 UTC - in response to Message 39296.  

> You have a much better chance of hitting all 7 numbers
(or whatever) in your local lottery.

I toataly agree on that. I would even had that one has more
chance of winning that lottery for a few weeks in a row...

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Message 39324 - Posted: 23 Oct 2004, 2:54:36 UTC

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Message 39517 - Posted: 23 Oct 2004, 22:29:30 UTC - in response to Message 39292.  


> What if they are very very stupid and they send it back to god (us) with
> a sample of the bacteria currently destroying their civilisation, with
> a "meesage" asking for help ?
>
> How would we react to this bacteria? How we would understand their message?
>
> What I mean is the possibilities of not being able to "understand" each
> others are infinite.
Well, lets hope they can at least count.Math is about as universal of a language that we know of.But of course We base our math on ten because we have ten fingers.what if they have three or 18 fingers.Hmmm...

If alien bacteria ever ever got loose on earth (even alien cold bacteria) we'd be screwed.
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Message 39519 - Posted: 23 Oct 2004, 22:38:24 UTC - in response to Message 39324.  

>
>


I get a kick out of area 51 conspiracy.Comical or not, does any one really belive that the US gov , men in black,or majestic twelve what have you, would hide alien bodies or hardware in a well publicized place such as Groom lake.I doubt it.More likley they would be hidden in a very remote place such as Alaska or in the mountains away from prying eyes.
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Message 39521 - Posted: 23 Oct 2004, 23:23:40 UTC - in response to Message 39517.  
Last modified: 23 Oct 2004, 23:45:45 UTC

> Well, lets hope they can at least count.Math is about as universal of a
> language that we know of.But of course We base our math on ten because we have
> ten fingers.what if they have three or 18 fingers.Hmmm...
>
> If alien bacteria ever ever got loose on earth (even alien cold bacteria) we'd
> be screwed.

Well, I see the possiblity of using mathematic as a language in two aspects.

1)
Are mathematics really a language ? Was 2+2=4 at the dynosore age ?
Does numbers exist if there is nobody to think about it ? How did
mathematics came to human mind ? Are mathematics really god's language
like Pythagore, Platon, Galileo, Newton, Einstein, Feynman, Russel, and
many others thought it was ? This era was called the Pythagorian
mythology. Today's Physics says that mathematics are far from perfect
and our theories describes our surrounding world with approximations only.

2)
Some animals are able to make simple calculations. A bird has been observed
waiting outside a Barn that everybody got out of it before he get back to
his nest. The bird saw 1,2,3 and up to 7 peoples going in the barn. These
people slowly got out of it by one at the time and group of two and three.
Well that bird waited outside until all of the people got out. It shows
that he can ad and substract.

Could we "communicate" with this bird using mathematics ?

Let say we are sending a prime numbers radio beacon. ET receives it and
manage to understand that it is primes. What will it do ? They will think
well these humanoids knows about prime numbers. Period. Could we call this
communicate ? What kind of exchange mathematics would allow us to have
with ET ?

I am skeptical.


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Message 39528 - Posted: 23 Oct 2004, 23:43:45 UTC - in response to Message 39519.  
Last modified: 23 Oct 2004, 23:44:30 UTC

> I get a kick out of area 51 conspiracy.Comical or not, does any one really
> belive that the US gov , men in black,or majestic twelve what have you, would
> hide alien bodies or hardware in a well publicized place such as Groom lake.I
> doubt it.More likley they would be hidden in a very remote place such as
> Alaska or in the mountains away from prying eyes.


I don't believe anything about Area51. It is a pure fantasy.
But yes if it was true I would hide everything elsewhere, in
a place no one would ever guess or suspect, In New York.




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Message 40427 - Posted: 27 Oct 2004, 0:24:15 UTC - in response to Message 40228.  

To borrow from the BABE thread Pharmacology's
bio has a good explanation.

She is cute (I have good Hungarian souvenir...)and I quite agree
with what she says. We have more urgent problem here on earth to
take care of then knowing if ET exist.
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Message 41343 - Posted: 30 Oct 2004, 3:19:08 UTC

We spend a lot of time thinking that we are "great" "smart" etc, and in all fact, we REALLY know nothing. We recently had one of our probes make it out of our SOLAR SYSTEM (pioneer) . We are pretty...lame....when it comes to knowing our surroundings.

Man, IMHO, is an amatuer - we are behind. If you are expecting contact from another civilization - they will make it obvious. Honestly, how advanced are we when it comes to beyond the planet? We are children. Hell, we haven't learned to stop fighting with each other (and I am military) which is one of the basic requirements of a truly global advanced society.

We think we are all that..we are nothing. Do a search for Sagan Blue Dot. It's VERY good - we are nothing.
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Message 44478 - Posted: 8 Nov 2004, 23:30:35 UTC - in response to Message 39296.  

> I think this project can be best described in one word. Hope.
> First given the vastness of space you wouldnt be able to establish a
> meaningful dialogue thru radio waves. Present day Star Trek is science
> fiction and "subspace communication" doesnt exist. Seti would only be able to
> detect (and hopefully prove) ET's existance.
> Now what are the chances of detecting an alien signal? Almost nil given all
> the variables such as distance/time traveled, location, effects of gravity and
> intervening objects, power and frequency of signal. Unless the origin of the
> signal is 'relatively close' in astronomical terms I believe it would be
> totally up to random chance. Its like spinning a roulette wheel and hoping it
> lands on your number except there are hundreds of billions of numbers on the
> wheel. The odds are astronomical and it would take extreme luck. Lets say
> Planet X sends out a radio signal. The frequency of the transmission would
> have to be in the range that we are listening to. Then it would have to be
> aimed at the spot where Earth would be in X amount of years from where we are
> now, (where x=distance in light years from Planet X to Earth). The signal
> would have to be powerful enough to reach us before it could dissipate. The
> signal may be bent in direction, shifted in frequency, absorbed/deflected by
> all sorts of things like gravity, dust, etc. Then after all of this if the
> signal did reach Earth we would have to have an antenna up and running and
> recording, pointed in the exact direction of the incoming signal at the exact
> time the signal comes in, at the freq we are listening to, and last long
> enough for a proper analysis. You have a much better chance of hitting all 7
> numbers (or whatever) in your local lottery.
>aaah! some one with a bit of brains. I've given thought to radio waves, but this would be to slow and the range limited. Now laser light.... fast, pin point and thousends of frequencies ideal for incripted measages. I think this is more like the communications or simualar, that would be used.
"All man born has a right to life and no man born has the right to take that life"
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Message 44481 - Posted: 8 Nov 2004, 23:36:39 UTC - in response to Message 39265.  
Last modified: 17 Dec 2004, 10:20:13 UTC

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Message 44788 - Posted: 9 Nov 2004, 15:41:35 UTC - in response to Message 44773.  
Last modified: 9 Nov 2004, 15:43:37 UTC

Unless we are unaware of it and it's already happened, one day ET will be among us waiting in line at the grocery store or sharpening his skills on the golf course. What a shame if when approached in order to have some communication he pulls out his dog-eared and coffee stained copy of 'The Pan-Galactic Bible' and starts spewing chapter and verse...cc
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Message 95099 - Posted: 5 Apr 2005, 0:58:02 UTC

It seems that some people forget how our children learn to speak, wright and spell. They assume that ET hasn't the ability to decypher our language nor theirs.

Not so long ago we learned new languages and ancient texts that had been long forgotten. So it is possible to learn other languages that are from cultures other than ours. It just means that both parties require starting with the basics like the Alphabet, numbers and pictures just like a child does.

It my take many years to learn each otheres language to the level of fully understanding each othere without miss-understandings, But what fun it would be. You never know what technological or medical information could be exchanged to help both parties.
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Message 95110 - Posted: 5 Apr 2005, 1:30:52 UTC

From Nov 9 to Apr 5 UTC. Well folks we just set a new record.
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Message 95146 - Posted: 5 Apr 2005, 4:53:28 UTC - in response to Message 95099.  

> Not so long ago we learned new languages and ancient texts that had been long
> forgotten. So it is possible to learn other languages that are from cultures
> other than ours. It just means that both parties require starting with the
> basics like the Alphabet, numbers and pictures just like a child does.

Do not forget that culture and thought have evolved over time, so that we have a continuous set of "clues" in our anthropological and cultural history to use in deciphering ancient writing. We have a tremendous advantage in trying to decipher the thoughts of other human beings, relative to trying to communicate with ET.

The greatest challenge comes if ET uses faculties other than our own for communication. For example, our communication is largely visual (writing, pictures) and auditory (speech, music). What if ET is blind and deaf, but has completely different senses that we do not have? He will find himself blind to our writing and deaf to our speech, and we will find ourselves likewise "blind and deaf" as far as ET's senses are concerned. All of a sudden we find outselves lacking the basic tool box with which to communicate.

The reason that one uses mathematics is that we presume that without mathematics ET would not be able to manipulate his/her/its environment enough to communicate through space at all. It is a fair assumption to make, since any beings that use senses similar to our own will probably tend to exploit the laws of nature in a similar way to ourselves - "scientifically", which is to say "mathematically".




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Message 95177 - Posted: 5 Apr 2005, 7:45:38 UTC - in response to Message 39296.  

> I think this project can be best described in one word. Hope.
>

Exactly. Hope that there is life out there, that they are at least as advanced as 20th century humans, that they utilize radio signals, etc.

I too have thought of how communications would be established if signals of life exist. Mankind assumes that laws of mathmatics and physics are universal but who is to really say. They are universal in our observation as we can't see any other way that these laws could not be universal.

A different civilization may have a completely different set mathmatics and physics laws it adheres to. It may communicate in methods other than radio waves. I do believe that there is life out there somewhere in the vast universe but I do question if we will ever really know for sure as we are using what we perceive as universal constants to do the search since that is all we know.

Hope that these constants exist universally is what this project is built upon.



To truly explore, one must keep an open mind...
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