Message boards :
Number crunching :
BOINC needs a overhaul
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Fred J. Verster Send message Joined: 21 Apr 04 Posts: 3252 Credit: 31,903,643 RAC: 0 |
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Blurf Send message Joined: 2 Sep 06 Posts: 8962 Credit: 12,678,685 RAC: 0 |
Nice thread... Luke--who I affectioniately call "Trigger" now--and this fits perfectly this time--I truly think you jumped the gun on this one. I'm saying this not as a "metaphorical punch in the noise" but simply a fact. Other people have requested changes in code, etc (most recently Sattler) and it just doesn't happen when posted here. A Petition/vote isn't going to help matters and as we've seen-is starting to dredge up old arguments again (credits, etc). Others have stated it--the project doesn't have the manpower or finances to do a total rewrite--it's simply not going to happen. While Boinc works just fine for me, I do see where maybe it'd be a fair idea to stop all Boinc production for let's say--6 to 8 months--and revise what is already out there to fix some of the issues. However has anyone considered the status of DA's grant that funds Boinc and the parameters that state when these upgrades must occur? I just have to wonder if that is a factor that may be involved. Until I'm forced to or see a version that I think is worthy, I'm sticking with 5.10.45 |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30639 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
I also wish reporting bugs / interacting with the devs was easier. Yes, that is what need the total re-write! |
Cannibal Corpse Send message Joined: 9 Aug 02 Posts: 13 Credit: 154,389 RAC: 0 |
Since there are third party Op App's that are better than Boinc app's, why cant Boinc sanction those app's (authenticate?)and realse those app's? So yes I agree, need a total restructure. Do WHAT THO WILL SHALL BE THE WHOLE OF THE LAW. THE ONLY PATH WORTH TRAVELING IS THE PATH WITH HEART. Proud member of TEAM CARL SAGAN |
HAL9000 Send message Joined: 11 Sep 99 Posts: 6534 Credit: 196,805,888 RAC: 57 |
Since there are third party Op App's that are better than Boinc app's, why cant Boinc sanction those app's (authenticate?)and realse those app's? So yes I agree, need a total restructure. There are Opt Apps for projects, such as seti@home, not BOINC. BOINC is just the software that runs those projects. SETI@home classic workunits: 93,865 CPU time: 863,447 hours Join the [url=http://tinyurl.com/8y46zvu]BP6/VP6 User Group[ |
Cannibal Corpse Send message Joined: 9 Aug 02 Posts: 13 Credit: 154,389 RAC: 0 |
Cool thx...understood. Like Win running Boinc.lol Oh BTW some might wonder why i am crunchin Mw@h and posting on S@H...Well untill S@H can fix the problems, for which i wish i could donate mony to. And well this is the better message board, i feel. So cudos and wish the best to all the crunchers out there... Do WHAT THO WILL SHALL BE THE WHOLE OF THE LAW. THE ONLY PATH WORTH TRAVELING IS THE PATH WITH HEART. Proud member of TEAM CARL SAGAN |
woodenboatguy Send message Joined: 10 Nov 00 Posts: 368 Credit: 3,969,364 RAC: 0 |
Put me down for an informed "no" vote. I wrote a great long (read "boring") post and then decided not to post it. The long and short of it is, after 10+ years as a coder beginning in the late '70s and as a consuling PM since 1990, my feeling is that those who use the word "rewrite" don't understand just what they are suggesting. One might as well say "rewrite" the Empire State building. An exciting idea and perhaps in a half dozen years we'd get to see what the view is like from the same elevation on the new building. But then again, at least the washrooms would be new. BOINC, like a substantial building, is a collection of highly complex interconnections worked in over many many (MANY) hours of work. Unless a legion of volunteer uber-coders are about to volunteer fantastic amounts of effort to essentially reproduce a major portion of exactly the same functionality (remember, not everything in this goes out in the trash), then we have no reference point. Add to that massive (MASSIVE) amounts of time and effort to test, deploy, respond to the new bugs (not the same as the old bugs of course so lots and lots AND LOTS of new things to complain about there). If you are still reading at this point, you must be a PM too. Otherwise you are getting the drift. 98% of what is under the covers needs no "rewrite" and enhancements are the way of IT. I once enhanced code older than I am....it was that good and still running meeting the original needs it was written for, over 30 years prior. Regards, |
John McLeod VII Send message Joined: 15 Jul 99 Posts: 24806 Credit: 790,712 RAC: 0 |
SNIP Fine, you don't have to sign up for another project. However if you project goes down for a month, you cannot expect to be able to keep crunching through that. But you still have not come up with a different limit, and a rationale for it. BOINC WIKI |
John McLeod VII Send message Joined: 15 Jul 99 Posts: 24806 Credit: 790,712 RAC: 0 |
Put me down for an informed "no" vote. I have been party to one re-write. It was going to take 4 years to cram the next two major features into the old code and only 2.5 to rewrite and get the next 5 major features in place. We were only 1 month wrong on the 2.5 years BTW. That was 2.5 years with NO new releases. Are there things that could be done better in BOINC? Almost certainly. Are some ideas for changing things going to work worse than it does now? Absolutely. Have some changes been made that make things worse? Yes. (most recent example is 6.10.35 that has no preemption for single CPU applications, and no test for loooong times between checkpoints). Contrary to what people said before this was implemented, it DOES lead to late work that gets NO credit, as it is scientifically WORTHLESS. BOINC WIKI |
Lionel Send message Joined: 25 Mar 00 Posts: 680 Credit: 563,640,304 RAC: 597 |
I for one would like to see the back of "Communicating with BOINC Client, Please Wait..." It seems that whenever I open Boinc Manager I seem to wait an incredibly long time for the message box to go and then you get about 5 seconds to do something before its back... The problem is only going to get worse with faster multi core processors and GPUs I do think its time to re-think how BOINC works and redesign the app. |
Aurora Borealis Send message Joined: 14 Jan 01 Posts: 3075 Credit: 5,631,463 RAC: 0 |
Your systems have between 3000 and 8000 task. The 'Show active tasks' was added for people with very large caches. I'm sure it helped a little for display, but Boinc still needs to read and update very large files needed to keep track of so many tasks and that takes a lot of time. The only way, I can think of, to speed things up a bit would be for Boinc to have an indexed database of the tasks on the system. This would require a major overhaul and months if not years of coding and debugging. Boinc V7.2.42 Win7 i5 3.33G 4GB, GTX470 |
Jord Send message Joined: 9 Jun 99 Posts: 15184 Credit: 4,362,181 RAC: 3 |
.. but Boinc still needs to read and update very large files needed to keep track of so many tasks and that takes a lot of time. And display those in real-time. At present the RPC to fetch the information takes 1.5 seconds to display 1,200 tasks, while the refresh update in BOINC Manager is 1 second. So 3,000 tasks take 2.75 seconds, while 8,000 take 10 seconds. There's just no way to get all that information into a 1 second refresh rate. And then the question is what's the use of showing/updating all those tasks that aren't running/otherwise actively being used? Hence the use of the "Show active tasks" button, which is on by default. If you clicked the button while it showed "Show all tasks", then left it at that, it's no wonder BM loses the connection to the client. So now you can't run BM long enough to click that button. No, but you can edit the registry to reactivate this button. Start->Run, type regedit, click OK. Navigate to HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Space Sciences Laboratory, U.C. Berkeley\BOINC Manager\Tasks and change the value of ActiveTasksOnly from 0 to 1. Then start BOINC Manager. Changes are immediate. Active tasks are only those that are running, waiting to run and suspended. It will not show the ready to start, uploading, downloading and ready to report. |
kittyman Send message Joined: 9 Jul 00 Posts: 51468 Credit: 1,018,363,574 RAC: 1,004 |
OK...the biggest problem I have with Boinc is it's overhead when dealing with large caches. 3,000 to 4,000 WU's and above. Boincmanager seems to suddenly become self centered, and consumes as much CPU time as possible just pondering what to do next and reading/writing to the hard drive. Hard drive bursts of 5-15 seconds with little going on besides that. Too much time spent in management, and little done in processing data. And comms are another foible.....they tangle things up even further, and when things start to back up, everything collapses like a house of cards. Boinc becomes all consuming. There should be little need to analyze things every second or so. More time should be allowed before Boinc resorts everything. It's just not necessary for it to sit there and thrash the hard drive every few seconds wondering what to do next! And then do it again....and again...and again...and again. So there, I have elucidated my main concerns about the current incarnations of Boinc. Maybe a total rewrite is not warranted. As per Richard's analysis............ But some heavy rework is in order, I think. Down to the core. Meow meow. "Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster |
John McLeod VII Send message Joined: 15 Jul 99 Posts: 24806 Credit: 790,712 RAC: 0 |
.. but Boinc still needs to read and update very large files needed to keep track of so many tasks and that takes a lot of time. That assumes linear. I know there is a sort involved, so it is at least lg(n) * n, and if the wrong sort is used may be as large as n^2 for speed. For simplicity, say 1000 tasks takes 1 second. 10,000 tasks would take 20 seconds with n*lg(n) and 10,000,000 seconds with n^2. One possible problem (and I don't know if it exists) is that adding tasks to a windows list box that is sorted - sorts tasks every time an item is added. BOINC WIKI |
hiamps Send message Joined: 23 May 99 Posts: 4292 Credit: 72,971,319 RAC: 0 |
.. but Boinc still needs to read and update very large files needed to keep track of so many tasks and that takes a lot of time. Thanks Ageless, I really needed that advice a few weeks ago. I will save this post. Official Abuser of Boinc Buttons... And no good credit hound! |
Jord Send message Joined: 9 Jun 99 Posts: 15184 Credit: 4,362,181 RAC: 3 |
You don't need to run BOINC manager to run the client (and science apps), even when you haven't got BOINC installed as a service. By enabling the exit dialog (available since BOINC 6.3.23. In case it's off: through Advanced->Options, check "Enable Manager exit dialog?") you can exit BOINC Manager without stopping the client or the science applications. Uncheck "Stop running science applications when exiting Manager" and you're done. You can even start BOINC without BOINC Manager, just start BOINC from a command line (or batch file) with boinc.exe --detach (detach will close the console window). |
Norwich Gadfly Send message Joined: 29 Dec 08 Posts: 100 Credit: 488,414 RAC: 0 |
OK...the biggest problem I have with Boinc is it's overhead when dealing with large caches. I'm not surprised, it will spend most of its time scratching its head trying to work out what to do next. But why would anyone want a cache with that many units ? On a four core machine, currently I have five active tasks, four ready to report, and nine ready to start, spread over three projects. My additional work buffer is one day. |
Matthew S. McCleary Send message Joined: 9 Sep 99 Posts: 121 Credit: 2,288,242 RAC: 0 |
But why would anyone want a cache with that many units ? On a four core machine, currently I have five active tasks, four ready to report, and nine ready to start, spread over three projects. My additional work buffer is one day. I don't think anyone would choose to have that many, but lately with server problems and whatnot, a lot of "shorty" workunits are getting handed out. If you've got a four- or eight-core workstation, with multiple graphics cards, combined with workunits that only take fifteen minutes ... well, a multiple day cache turns into an awful lot of workunits. |
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