Out of the fire and into the pit of sulfuric acid. (Feb 19, 2010)

Message boards : Technical News : Out of the fire and into the pit of sulfuric acid. (Feb 19, 2010)
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Lionel

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Message 979394 - Posted: 16 Mar 2010, 9:10:30 UTC - in response to Message 979197.  

oh comeon : / give me some work to do : /

sometimes a download, but no upload the last days

my computers needing some work : D

Gauli:

There are dozens of BOINC projects out there whose servers are up, Internet connections wide open, and have more work than you could crunch on a thousand computers;)



Please don't be so contrite...for some of us Seti is our preferred choice or only project that we crunch, just let people know what's going on in a factual manner so that they can understand what is happening and why.

rgds

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Message 979532 - Posted: 16 Mar 2010, 16:19:51 UTC - in response to Message 979394.  
Last modified: 16 Mar 2010, 16:22:49 UTC

oh comeon : / give me some work to do : /

sometimes a download, but no upload the last days

my computers needing some work : D

Gauli:

There are dozens of BOINC projects out there whose servers are up, Internet connections wide open, and have more work than you could crunch on a thousand computers;)



Please don't be so contrite...for some of us Seti is our preferred choice or only project that we crunch, just let people know what's going on in a factual manner so that they can understand what is happening and why.

rgds

I've nearly quit posting because people in the forums are so mind-numbingly ignorant -- and demonstrate a desire to stay stupid.

It is incredibly clear that no one has even read the promise that SETI@Home has made: There are times that there will be no work.

It's absolutely obvious that no one has ever read any of the design papers that have been published about BOINC -- especially the ones that talk about what BOINC is supposed to do.

BOINC makes it possible for scientific calculation to be done when there is no money to do it any other way.

Want perfection? Write a huge check! Get a wish list of things for SETI and buy them. There is no problem that can't be solved by unlimited funding.

But it misses the point, completely.

If they had enough funding, they wouldn't need volunteers at all. The most effective way to do this is to simply buy (or lease time) on a really big computer.

It misses the point because BOINC makes it possible to do science that has no hope of getting huge funding.

BOINC changes the game, completely.

But the problem is that most volunteers (we aren't "workers" or "clients") have never bother to figure out that what we're doing here changes the whole game. It makes computing for science available at an incredibly low cost -- in exchange for the kind of glitches we've seen over the past decade.

If you get it, you realize that even at times like this, and even for all of the problems, and all of the gripes about performance, a very small group of people and a huge group of volunteers are chewing through calculations that would simply not get done any other way.

... and if you think about that, all of the constant bitching is incredibly selfish and just plain stupid.
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Profile Bill Walker
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Message 979557 - Posted: 16 Mar 2010, 23:10:56 UTC - in response to Message 979532.  

... and if you think about that, all of the constant bitching is incredibly selfish and just plain stupid.


You the man Ned.

Wanted to say much the same myself, but I couldn't do it without using terms that would probably have resulted in a life time ban.

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parafa

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Message 979570 - Posted: 16 Mar 2010, 23:32:36 UTC

I don't want perfection, just want to upload that fckin task(weeks ago). I'll not donate. I'm considering not to participate. It makes no sense to calculate if I can't upload the result. That much.

ps:I hope so it will work soon.
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Message 979581 - Posted: 16 Mar 2010, 23:45:59 UTC

Has there been ANY communication from the S@H team about the cause of the current problem or an ETA for solving same? Personally,I have not seen anything and would have expected any info to be posted in this message board and forum.

There was a posting yesterday on the home page about, "Are We Alone?" The Great Debate, but not a word on the upload problem.

A few words would probably calm down the people who are frustrated.
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C

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Message 979584 - Posted: 16 Mar 2010, 23:49:24 UTC - in response to Message 979532.  
Last modified: 16 Mar 2010, 23:50:08 UTC

...
I've nearly quit posting because people in the forums are so mind-numbingly ignorant -- and demonstrate a desire to stay stupid.
...


So...Ned...tell us what you really think... <grin>

FWIW, I agree with you...

C

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Message 979586 - Posted: 16 Mar 2010, 23:54:03 UTC

Patience and time are all that are required.

Uploads are now going through with no problem.
Clearly download/upload is being adjusted and uploads got first priority.
Reporting of results may also be starting, though none of mine have gone through yet.
Downloading of fresh work will take a little longer but it WILL all happen eventually.

I repeat, patience and time are all that are required.

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Message 979587 - Posted: 16 Mar 2010, 23:54:11 UTC - in response to Message 979557.  

... and if you think about that, all of the constant bitching is incredibly selfish and just plain stupid.


You the man Ned.

Wanted to say much the same myself, but I couldn't do it without using terms that would probably have resulted in a life time ban.


I no longer care. If I'm banned for pointing out the appalling level of ignorance, I'll be just fine with that.

My opinions are my own. It's a good thing they're looking for intelligence "out there" because there is virtually none here.

I've posted so many times saying "look, here are the white papers!" and "think about how you'd make a reliable system out of unreliable parts" -- with the crunchers themselves being the least reliable, of course.

... and I've pointed out that it costs real money to make servers highly reliable.

If you are trying to do big science with no money, you can't afford highly-reliable facilities.

You can design so that "highly reliable facilities" are not required, or you can give up and not do the science.

Even with all of the issues, BOINC works. It works reasonably well.

Thousands of computers are crunching along. Not smoothly, but if you want smooth, relying on the kindness of strangers (the volunteer crunchers) is simply not a good idea.

So, the computers are doing fine. BOINC is working as designed, and working around the obvious problems.

But, what do we read in the forums?

One idiot says he burned his work on a CD, and is mailing it in. How arrogant.

Another says "the admins. are quiet, that must mean we should all reload the OS on our computers."

Another says "I just want to upload the fcking task."

... and several have posted variations of "I quit."

All because the project did not meet their own artificial criteria.

This is not time critical data, and while it's important research, it's not well-funded research -- it's barely funded at all.

We should be talking about how much work is being done in the face of all the problems, not "why is my RAC suffering" or "it isn't fair that I'm spending all this money on electricity and the stupid project can't give me work."

My, aren't we impressed with ourselves.

You can't blame staff for not posting when there is always someone ready with some variant of "why hasn't the SETI staff learned to run a couple of computers?"

That isn't just stupid, it's cruel and abusive. No one deserves that.
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Message 979592 - Posted: 16 Mar 2010, 23:57:39 UTC - in response to Message 979581.  

That's it. I just want some info.(e.g the estimated end of this shit)
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Richard Haselgrove Project Donor
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Message 979595 - Posted: 17 Mar 2010, 0:00:26 UTC - in response to Message 979587.  

Oh, Ned, my friend - where has your sense of humor gone?

I saw both the post about the CD, and the one about reloading windows - and I'm absolutely certain they were making the same point as you, but using satire to lighten the mood a bit.
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Richard Haselgrove Project Donor
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Message 979599 - Posted: 17 Mar 2010, 0:02:25 UTC - in response to Message 979592.  

But then again, the number of people stuck on 'repeat post', without even noticing that the upload logjam broke about six hours ago, rather makes Ned's point.
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Profile Fred J. Verster
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Message 979602 - Posted: 17 Mar 2010, 0:05:11 UTC - in response to Message 979581.  
Last modified: 17 Mar 2010, 0:11:04 UTC

I wouln't be surprised, that the ever growing SETI@home community and the use of CUDA, so you would say, good for work production, but maybe were all contributing to a large DDoS Attack and it derails, up-- and down-load servers, scheduler, validator, don't know what the biggest culprit, is. I also could be very wrong :-/
When you look at the cricket graph's , there a steady decrease in a week time.
I still can't upload, but have already down loaded, new WU's. Upped the cache with 1 day, to 4 day's.
And signed up for Climate Prediction Net...
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parafa

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Message 979604 - Posted: 17 Mar 2010, 0:08:55 UTC - in response to Message 979587.  

Dear Ned!
Thank you for stigmatizing me idiot. Is it guild that I want to help?
OK, I tell you the story: I can't upload tasks, and don't know why! There is no information about this on the website. I'm looking for the forum, and what I see? "Want perfection?"->"donate"
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Message 979609 - Posted: 17 Mar 2010, 0:13:31 UTC - in response to Message 979595.  
Last modified: 17 Mar 2010, 0:19:46 UTC

Oh, Ned, my friend - where has your sense of humor gone?


It has been beaten out of me by the sheer stupidity of my fellow crunchers.

We're watching a whole new computing paradigm, and a whole new way of computing may go down the drain because of people bitching over the fact that they overspent (for electricity and computers) based on their own idea of what the project would deliver -- without even bothering to ask.

Problems? You bet. We know about them mainly because, as a research project, BOINC is instrumented. We can peer into BOINC and we can see the gears turning, and the clockwork ticking away.

Anyway, I've posted more than I meant to -- maybe I'll be back in a few weeks.

In the meantime, computers here are crunching away, and they aren't stunned by the idiocy represented by most of the posts in Number Crunching and "Technical News."
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Message 979618 - Posted: 17 Mar 2010, 0:26:39 UTC - in response to Message 979609.  

Oh, Ned, my friend - where has your sense of humor gone?


It has been beaten out of me by the sheer stupidity of my fellow crunchers.

In the meantime, computers here are crunching away, and they aren't stunned by the idiocy represented by most of the posts in Number Crunching and "Technical News."


OK fine!

Now where is the communication? I have spent over a decade crunching for SETI. If it isn't interested enough to tell me what the problems are, why should I bother spending what the electricity costs me?

Idiocy! Well shove that where the sun doesn't shine. People here volunteered. There is only so much crap volunteers will put up with. Simple really - tell people what is happening, or don't. Consequences follow.

You may be prepared to waste money on power - why should I?
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Message 979625 - Posted: 17 Mar 2010, 0:36:43 UTC - in response to Message 979604.  

Dear Ned!
Thank you for stigmatizing me idiot. Is it guild that I want to help?
OK, I tell you the story: I can't upload tasks, and don't know why! There is no information about this on the website. I'm looking for the forum, and what I see? "Want perfection?"->"donate"


I see no where Ned mentions you by name. I think you may be taking his words personally.
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Message 979631 - Posted: 17 Mar 2010, 0:43:06 UTC - in response to Message 979618.  

Oh, Ned, my friend - where has your sense of humor gone?


It has been beaten out of me by the sheer stupidity of my fellow crunchers.

In the meantime, computers here are crunching away, and they aren't stunned by the idiocy represented by most of the posts in Number Crunching and "Technical News."


OK fine!

Now where is the communication? I have spent over a decade crunching for SETI. If it isn't interested enough to tell me what the problems are, why should I bother spending what the electricity costs me?

Idiocy! Well shove that where the sun doesn't shine. People here volunteered. There is only so much crap volunteers will put up with. Simple really - tell people what is happening, or don't. Consequences follow.

You may be prepared to waste money on power - why should I?


I volunteer just as well as you do. I made no agreement when I signed up stating that as long as I paid my electric bill, the project owes me something in return. I also see no reason to give ultimatums and consequences for something so trivial.

I don't know about you, but the technical updates (or lack thereof) are not the reason why I started donating. I know I would not waste any power on anything at all. But I don't see it as a waste after all.
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Message 979634 - Posted: 17 Mar 2010, 0:45:08 UTC - in response to Message 979618.  
Last modified: 17 Mar 2010, 0:46:46 UTC

[quote]Oh, Ned, my friend - where has your sense of humor gone?


OK fine!

Now where is the communication? I have spent over a decade crunching for SETI. If it isn't interested enough to tell me what the problems are, why should I bother spending what the electricity costs me?

Idiocy! Well shove that where the sun doesn't shine. People here volunteered. There is only so much crap volunteers will put up with. Simple really - tell people what is happening, or don't. Consequences follow.

You may be prepared to waste money on power - why should I?


You shouldn't........if you don't understand what this big science project is all about. It isn't about you - its slightly larger than that. If the costs are too high then by all means move on to something else.

I'm on year 9 myself soon to be 10.....I have PCs that would be on whether they were running BOINC or not...I choose to run it so there is mutual benefit.
It costs money for power - yep 5 PCs worth plus but in my meager opinion
I think the end result - whether anything is found or not is worth the search.

The project is shorthanded no doubt - I too wish they would communicate more often and maybe let us in on things but I'd rather they spend their time making it work and doing what the whole thing is for - the science.

The consequences ? If you don't do the work someone else will ...I'm always in need of a few more WU's..

I guess what I'm saying is don't get so worked up over something so (in the scope of things) minor. You were never promised continual work and in that they have met their promise <grin>
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Message 979636 - Posted: 17 Mar 2010, 0:45:27 UTC

on aimerais bien savoir ce qui se passe d'autant que tous les voyants des serveurs sont au vert.
merci
un utilisateur français

we would like to know what's the matter, cause all the servers are on.
thanks
a french user
seti1 was pretty good, seti2 will be better ?
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Message 979646 - Posted: 17 Mar 2010, 1:01:03 UTC - in response to Message 979618.  

Oh, Ned, my friend - where has your sense of humor gone?


It has been beaten out of me by the sheer stupidity of my fellow crunchers.

In the meantime, computers here are crunching away, and they aren't stunned by the idiocy represented by most of the posts in Number Crunching and "Technical News."


OK fine!

Now where is the communication? I have spent over a decade crunching for SETI. If it isn't interested enough to tell me what the problems are, why should I bother spending what the electricity costs me?

Idiocy! Well shove that where the sun doesn't shine. People here volunteered. There is only so much crap volunteers will put up with. Simple really - tell people what is happening, or don't. Consequences follow.

You may be prepared to waste money on power - why should I?

Stunningly dull.

I don't work for the project. It also does not work for me. I'm a volunteer.

I don't spend a whole lot on electricity. I don't run computers just to crunch. No one asked me to.

At the same time, I don't expect the project to always run smoothly.

Why? Because they said they wouldn't.

Why should I get mad when the project says "we make no promises" and that turns out to be true?

Someone else took my rant and singled out "perfection? donate!" and true to form, missed the point completely.

Currently, donations barely cover salaries. February brought in $4,400.

To guarantee smooth operation, multiple redundant connections are needed. Bigger servers, more space, more electricity, more A/C. More staff would be good too.

Probably can't do that in the lab, where costs are artificially low.

Donations would have to increase by at least a factor of 100. That's not going to happen. Perfection is not an option.

I'd encourage donations, but I'm under no illusion that all of the problems will be fixed if we each kicked in $5.

... but picking out one bit because you don't like it, and attacking it, that doesn't work.

I personally think that you have a choice. You can recognize that this is the environment that BOINC is designed for: broken servers, undersized connections, random junk belonging to people who are not computing professionals, and fickle users who have never bothered to understand that this is what it is.

... and given all of that, it runs incredibly well.

... or you can choose to be mad because SETI@Home does not meet your expectations.

It's a choice.

It'd be different if they didn't meet their promises.

They promised that there would be downtime, and they promised that they'd run out of work.

When staff does tell us what's going on, they get a whole stack of advice, some of it well meaning, but much of it bitching about their inability to keep a stack of random hardware -- some of it "hand-me-downs" -- running flawlessly on a near-zero budget.

I think we'd get more communication from the project if people would simply adopt a kinder tone.

I'm under no illusions there either.
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Message boards : Technical News : Out of the fire and into the pit of sulfuric acid. (Feb 19, 2010)


 
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