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kittyman Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
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Message 952038 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 18:46:49 UTC

On Seti's main page.....under 'get started'....

1. Read our rules and policies.

The very first item is........



Run SETI@home only on authorized computers

Run SETI@home only on computers that you own, or for which you have obtained the owner's permission. Some companies and schools have policies that prohibit using their computers for projects such as SETI@home.
"Time is simply the mechanism that keeps everything from happening all at once."

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Message 952050 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 19:14:30 UTC - in response to Message 952022.  

Some (most that Ive read) is not good publicity but it IS publicity.

<snip>
#2. Limit accounts to a dozen active devices until a signed well worded hold-harmless release is received. Why? If Berkeley gets named in a lawsuit seeking damages (and using this case as an example, the lawyers for both the school district & Nez himself have probably considering it), then regardless of outcome, S@H would likely get shuttered as a nuisance magnet.
<snip>


And what about someone like me? I have 14 PCs that I currently run...6 at work and 8 at home...and my hosts list at BOINCStats lists 34 hosts...will I need "a signed well worded hold-harmless release"??

If you read the rules, it states to only run it on PCs you are authorized to do so...simple and plain English...if you don't have permission, don't do it. I guess I still beleive in the honor system...and BOINC is a test of that system...
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Message 952054 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 19:22:56 UTC

And now the reason I'm seriously thinking of starting creditwhore@home comes to post in this thread.

Every time you run the installer, you have to change the check box from I don't agree to I do agree. That is a valid signature on a contract.

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Message 952058 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 19:39:55 UTC - in response to Message 952050.  
Last modified: 3 Dec 2009, 19:59:59 UTC

If you read the rules


I've read and follow the rules, I'm not Nez (but maybe he read the rules as they existed in Feb 2000 and felt only that applied to him).

My point is an irresponsible and/or unethical user can put this ENTIRE project at fiscal & reputation risk. Quoting eulas does nothing to meaningfully protect Berkeley. Plenty of lawsuits that defy common sense and written warnings succeed none-the-less (no matter how frivilous and meritless it is to us here in the forum). Read the StellaAwards someday. Here are a few.

So maybe, just maybe, rather than brush it off to bad self-enforcement, the project mavens should use that masterful scientific & logistic DB that clearly could be used to pinpoint a probable problem list of EULA abusers. Seems like a good use of a week to me if it helps protect Berkeley. ... then get a few of the forum folks here to monitor it moving forward.


And what about someone like me?


Yes, you get to sign a hold harmless. If you don't wish to, then only the first 12 machines retain their enlistment.

A reasonable line in the sand should be drawn. People can still get fired for running Boinc on even 1 corporate asset, and I totally agree that this isn't our problem, but when someone has a dozen machines (or 2500) and no one here questions it, hell, we're just turning our head the other way thus we fail the common sense test.

-- Edit --
Every time you run the installer


People who have a few machines run the installers. People who have hundreds or thousands use other silent means. Doesn't matter, clearly Nez was intentionally oblivious to the spirit and wisdom of the eula.
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Message 952059 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 19:41:20 UTC - in response to Message 952054.  

I wonder what the Boone Community School District - Iowa's thoughts are on this whole issue. Or BOG's thoughts.

#3 on the total credit list http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/show_user.php?userid=110


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Message 952064 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 20:09:51 UTC - in response to Message 952059.  

I wonder what the Boone Community School District - Iowa's thoughts are on this whole issue. Or BOG's thoughts.

#3 on the total credit list http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/show_user.php?userid=110

Well the team page has a school logo. a link to the school as its web page and 43 members many at least of whom could well be pupils.

I think by associating that user and school publicly with any controversy without really good evidence to back up your assertions you are doing them a disservice.

Have you attempted to communicate with BOG via PM before posting?

Have you contacted the school to ask them about this before mentioning them here?

Have you figures about how many schools actually do organise contributions to seti@home as part of their IT studies?
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Message 952077 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 21:01:28 UTC - in response to Message 952058.  

If you read the rules


I've read and follow the rules, I'm not Nez (but maybe he read the rules as they existed in Feb 2000 and felt only that applied to him).

My point is an irresponsible and/or unethical user can put this ENTIRE project at fiscal & reputation risk. Quoting eulas does nothing to meaningfully protect Berkeley. Plenty of lawsuits that defy common sense and written warnings succeed none-the-less (no matter how frivilous and meritless it is to us here in the forum). Read the StellaAwards someday. Here are a few.

So maybe, just maybe, rather than brush it off to bad self-enforcement, the project mavens should use that masterful scientific & logistic DB that clearly could be used to pinpoint a probable problem list of EULA abusers. Seems like a good use of a week to me if it helps protect Berkeley. ... then get a few of the forum folks here to monitor it moving forward.


And what about someone like me?


Yes, you get to sign a hold harmless. If you don't wish to, then only the first 12 machines retain their enlistment.

A reasonable line in the sand should be drawn. People can still get fired for running Boinc on even 1 corporate asset, and I totally agree that this isn't our problem, but when someone has a dozen machines (or 2500) and no one here questions it, hell, we're just turning our head the other way thus we fail the common sense test.

-- Edit --
Every time you run the installer


People who have a few machines run the installers. People who have hundreds or thousands use other silent means. Doesn't matter, clearly Nez was intentionally oblivious to the spirit and wisdom of the eula.


Glad the people at Seti aren't as paranoid as you. The rules were the same all the way back in 1999.
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Message 952081 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 21:29:59 UTC - in response to Message 952064.  

I wonder what the Boone Community School District - Iowa's thoughts are on this whole issue. Or BOG's thoughts.

#3 on the total credit list http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/show_user.php?userid=110

Well the team page has a school logo. a link to the school as its web page and 43 members many at least of whom could well be pupils.

I think by associating that user and school publicly with any controversy without really good evidence to back up your assertions you are doing them a disservice.

Have you attempted to communicate with BOG via PM before posting?

Have you contacted the school to ask them about this before mentioning them here?

Have you figures about how many schools actually do organise contributions to seti@home as part of their IT studies?


My point (or thoughts really) are not of the negative nature. My feeling on this whole thing is that Brad is being ousted and seti is the scapegoat. Do I have proof? No. Just my opinion. BOG and the the Boone Community School District Seems to be proud of there involvement but only by the presentation of the team page and logo. I have no proof of anything and really only have an opinion. Please dont get me wrong here. The rules are right and I dont disagree. I to use work computers and do have permission. Written? No. Verbal? Yes. Am I going to get written permission now because of this? No. I wouldn't disrespect the integrity my boss and I share where when a verbal agreement is made it is honored and by asking him for a written agreement would put a wedge into a good working relationship. This is small potatoes compared to the resources Brad had but the original relationships when he started may have been that way. We can all point to whats in the media and make assumptions as to blame but the reality is we will never know the whole story. What I find distasteful is the media bashing about the work seti/boinc/Berkeley is doing and I would like to hear from a Group that is on board and understands the DC world and supports it, like the Boone Community School District and BOG seem to.
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Message 952082 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 21:35:57 UTC - in response to Message 952077.  

If you read the rules


I've read and follow the rules, I'm not Nez (but maybe he read the rules as they existed in Feb 2000 and felt only that applied to him).

My point is an irresponsible and/or unethical user can put this ENTIRE project at fiscal & reputation risk. Quoting eulas does nothing to meaningfully protect Berkeley. Plenty of lawsuits that defy common sense and written warnings succeed none-the-less (no matter how frivilous and meritless it is to us here in the forum). Read the StellaAwards someday. Here are a few.

So maybe, just maybe, rather than brush it off to bad self-enforcement, the project mavens should use that masterful scientific & logistic DB that clearly could be used to pinpoint a probable problem list of EULA abusers. Seems like a good use of a week to me if it helps protect Berkeley. ... then get a few of the forum folks here to monitor it moving forward.


And what about someone like me?


Yes, you get to sign a hold harmless. If you don't wish to, then only the first 12 machines retain their enlistment.

A reasonable line in the sand should be drawn. People can still get fired for running Boinc on even 1 corporate asset, and I totally agree that this isn't our problem, but when someone has a dozen machines (or 2500) and no one here questions it, hell, we're just turning our head the other way thus we fail the common sense test.

-- Edit --
Every time you run the installer


People who have a few machines run the installers. People who have hundreds or thousands use other silent means. Doesn't matter, clearly Nez was intentionally oblivious to the spirit and wisdom of the eula.


Glad the people at Seti aren't as paranoid as you. The rules were the same all the way back in 1999.

Yes they [rules] were. And it appears in 1999 someone had full permission. When new people came in permission was revoked retroactively. Politics.

Now as to what we should do, we should contact the advertisers on the sites that are not reporting the story fairly and tell those advertisers we are going to boycott them for supporting yellow journalism. Best thing we can do for the project and the world at large.

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Message 952089 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 22:06:40 UTC

Hiya 52 Aces, your no 2.....hmmmmmmmmmmmmm, i suppose i better authorise myself with my 50 rigs....before i get locked out.....

I'm a smb with boinc on some, not all, cusdtomers rigs, & authorised....Some have even asked to have it installed........hhmmmmmmmmmm, better get it writing i suppose......
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Message 952092 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 22:09:43 UTC - in response to Message 952077.  
Last modified: 3 Dec 2009, 22:32:51 UTC

Glad the people at Seti aren't as paranoid as you. The rules were the same all the way back in 1999.


Nice, lets just hope they have a higher IQ than your last statement implies :-)

Those Rules come from the Boinc project template. Not S@H. That's why they're so identical across Einstein, Malaria, SIMAP, etc, etc, etc. We're talking about info.php, by the way. Remind me again when boinc proper shipped? How about Seti Classic? Here is the source.

Additionally, none of these rules are presented as part of installing Boinc. Nor are they presented when enlisting in S@H. Nor are they viewable from the UI or even copied to your local HD (\docs). You *ONLY* see them if you happen to click on the link from the website. This is a liability attorney's dream come true, Nez can argue he was never warned by S@H or Boinc (although he was warned by his employer and they've documented that fact).

Back to the main point, the S@H mavens should strongly consider identifying some of the other Nez's out there, or we might not have a project to enjoy in the future (and I do encourage renaming his ID to the proper credit underwriter, in this case Higley USD). Sure, the boinc folks should be involved since they own the template from which all the other projects originate (but I don't care if the other projects shut down), but they don't own the S@H data per se.

Cheers
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Message 952093 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 22:17:12 UTC - in response to Message 952092.  

Back to the main point, the S@H mavens need to be active on identifying some of the rule violators,

If they search then and only then do they become liable. They must not search.

or we won't have a project to enjoy in the future. Sure, the boinc folks should be involved since they own the template from which all the other projects originate (but I don't care if the other projects shut down), but they don't own the S@H data per se.

Cheers

What's your bar number?

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Message 952097 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 22:26:52 UTC - in response to Message 952093.  
Last modified: 3 Dec 2009, 22:30:15 UTC

If they search then and only then do they become liable. They must not search.

Yes, I hear you 100%, and I understand. It cringes my ethos, but I understand. It's like good citizens walking by ignoring kids spray painting the walls. If Nez 'attempts' to sue his former employer, I wouldn't be surprised if Boinc gets dragged into it somehow, and the Regents at Berkeley won't be pleased.

What's your bar number?

I dart pulled a low number of a dozen (12) as being statistically probably that work assets are involved. Logic being, how many people at home run a dozen machines... the avg enlistment in Boinc per ID is 2.2 machines I think. And for those who do run 12 or more machines at home, fine, sign the hold harmless.

---[Edit]---

I guess the point of 12 is it also probably covers +99% of S@H crunchers. It's the guy who zombies 50, 500, 5000 machines that stains the project and should be sleuthed out. The guy who violates on just 1 box is no different than a guy running World Of Warcraft at work.
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Message 952107 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 23:02:27 UTC - in response to Message 952097.  

If they search then and only then do they become liable. They must not search.

Yes, I hear you 100%, and I understand. It cringes my ethos, but I understand. It's like good citizens walking by ignoring kids spray painting the walls. If Nez 'attempts' to sue his former employer, I wouldn't be surprised if Boinc gets dragged into it somehow, and the Regents at Berkeley won't be pleased.

What's your bar number?

I dart pulled a low number of a dozen (12) as being statistically probably that work assets are involved. Logic being, how many people at home run a dozen machines... the avg enlistment in Boinc per ID is 2.2 machines I think. And for those who do run 12 or more machines at home, fine, sign the hold harmless.

---[Edit]---

I guess the point of 12 is it also probably covers +99% of S@H crunchers. It's the guy who zombies 50, 500, 5000 machines that stains the project and should be sleuthed out. The guy who violates on just 1 box is no different than a guy running World Of Warcraft at work.


Guess I would have to shut one down also or get written permission also...Not gonna happen.

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Message 952115 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 23:35:18 UTC - in response to Message 952035.  

Were his activities known about by DA and seti.
Message 36895 on Beta message boards.
We had a reply on the BOINC_alpha mailing list. David Anderson deliberately allowed self-validation, because otherwise NEZ would have no-one to validate with - he does such a high proportion of all the Beta work.

Let's keep in mind the reason NEZ joined Beta in the first place. Because on THIS project Matt Lebofsky asked for more Beta volunteers because the beta testing wasn't getting completed fast enough and THIS project was going to run out of work. So for all those who are complaining about Brad's WUs they wouldn't have any WUs to begin with if it weren't for Brad.

As for comments about Berkeley getting sued... how many times have I (we) heard that one before? We still are waiting for our day in court.
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Message 952119 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 23:46:21 UTC - in response to Message 952105.  
Last modified: 3 Dec 2009, 23:47:51 UTC

But It is their name and They should have the right to accept or decline the name change first.

Absolutely! It doesn't matter what the name is changed to as long as it's changed. Maybe throwing the banned:ID flag would serve the same purpose, but not sure if that would flow downstream to things like BoincStats though. KittyMan might know ;-)

But eventually the tally should probably be removed (unless Higley decides to join in ernest, which won't happen of course), as just not fair at moment to the other crunchers who are realistically forever bumped a notch by the unmentionable NEZ (thk goodness for rac sort order). At least he didn't drag a team down too.
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Message 952120 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 23:51:11 UTC - in response to Message 952115.  

Were his activities known about by DA and seti.
Message 36895 on Beta message boards.
We had a reply on the BOINC_alpha mailing list. David Anderson deliberately allowed self-validation, because otherwise NEZ would have no-one to validate with - he does such a high proportion of all the Beta work.

Let's keep in mind the reason NEZ joined Beta in the first place. Because on THIS project Matt Lebofsky asked for more Beta volunteers because the beta testing wasn't getting completed fast enough and THIS project was going to run out of work. So for all those who are complaining about Brad's WUs they wouldn't have any WUs to begin with if it weren't for Brad.

As for comments about Berkeley getting sued... how many times have I (we) heard that one before? We still are waiting for our day in court.


Everyone at Berkeley is probably pretty amused by this I would guess. Be interesting to hear something...Does Eric ever post anymore?
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Message 952142 - Posted: 4 Dec 2009, 1:18:23 UTC - in response to Message 952119.  

But It is their name and They should have the right to accept or decline the name change first.

Absolutely! It doesn't matter what the name is changed to as long as it's changed. Maybe throwing the banned:ID flag would serve the same purpose, but not sure if that would flow downstream to things like BoincStats though. KittyMan might know ;-)

But eventually the tally should probably be removed (unless Higley decides to join in ernest, which won't happen of course), as just not fair at moment to the other crunchers who are realistically forever bumped a notch by the unmentionable NEZ (thk goodness for rac sort order). At least he didn't drag a team down too.

Somebody is sure jonesing for a move just one spot up the total credit list. I suppose we should also throw out the results from the science database.

First Berkley would have to prove that all those credits weren't his, and they can't. They shouldn't even waste time trying. End of story!


Sue?! ROTFLMAO!

Some Podunk district in AZ is going to sue the State of California?! LOL! The counter suit for the slander of their district super would rip them a new one! Now if it was water rights in the Colorado River ...

Misfit might want to get a lawyer, because if there is a suit or criminal case, all his PM's are going to get read to a jury and he may well be the one reading them. Especially one about Nez starting up again soon, if I remember it right.

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Message 952143 - Posted: 4 Dec 2009, 1:24:21 UTC - in response to Message 952022.  

Personally, beyond any records subpoena (has Berkeley commented on if a subpoena was received?), I think the S@H mavens should take some distancing action.

While I understand where you're coming from, I suspect that the first thing that SETI@Home should do is consult legal counsel.

I'm sure that the attorney would advise doing very little without orders from a court of competent jurisdiction.

At most they should temporarily suspend the account so that the district's machines are not being used against their wishes while they're tracking down copies of BOINC.
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Message 952151 - Posted: 4 Dec 2009, 1:48:08 UTC

You are missing the point. Berkely and this project should do nothing. They did not do anything wrong. Did Nez do anything wrong, read more than just the school district's press releases and you will see that there is significant doubt about that. It appears he had his prior bosses permission. It really is looking like a political ploy by the new boss, birdbrain, to keep her job by making NEZ look like a bad guy and focuse all the negative attention on him.

But I repeat Berkely did nothing wrong, and should not change anything. To do otherwise could suggest that they did something wrong.
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