Lockerbie bomber released...

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b101uk
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Message 928057 - Posted: 22 Aug 2009, 19:01:55 UTC - in response to Message 928049.  

b101uk please try to read the link I included...Sky News-I believe-is not an American news outlet.

Sky News focuses on UK issues...so I think they would be fairly accurate and reliable


Sky News is just part of News Corporation just like FOX news etc ware this was said yesterday ;)

Just like FOX news Sky News is hardly a bastian for accurate unbiased news/views given News Corporation is heavily in the business of selling newspapers the world over which require sensationalism to make headlines about.
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Message 928074 - Posted: 22 Aug 2009, 20:58:19 UTC - in response to Message 928012.  



With respect to you personally b101uk, we don't let mass murderers go to score better trade deals w/ other countries.



http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/3-united-states-policies-in-columbia-support-mass-murder/
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Message 928089 - Posted: 22 Aug 2009, 22:39:33 UTC - in response to Message 927925.  


Unfortunately the non-west still believes in an eye for an eye and anything less than that is seen as a sign of weakness by them.


So what are you saying, start living by Islamic standards immediately to look tough?


We all will be Muslim soon anyway. Everyone in the West will cave to them as they are already sheeple.

Freedom isn't free, there is a terrible price to pay for it. Not enough willing to pay the price anymore.



This issue really has nothing to do with paying or fighting for freedom. I do not believe this guy was released due to Islamic based pressure or expectations.


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Message 928131 - Posted: 23 Aug 2009, 3:36:05 UTC - in response to Message 928089.  


Unfortunately the non-west still believes in an eye for an eye and anything less than that is seen as a sign of weakness by them.


So what are you saying, start living by Islamic standards immediately to look tough?


We all will be Muslim soon anyway. Everyone in the West will cave to them as they are already sheeple.

Freedom isn't free, there is a terrible price to pay for it. Not enough willing to pay the price anymore.



This issue really has nothing to do with paying or fighting for freedom. I do not believe this guy was released due to Islamic based pressure or expectations.


Of course the guy wasn't let out due to pressure, he was let out because a doctor said 3 months to live which is the magic number over there. It does however have everything to do with how an Imam will spin the story to his jihadist terror cell. As we all know it is the spin that matters.


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Message 928139 - Posted: 23 Aug 2009, 4:12:14 UTC - in response to Message 928131.  

Right, well I'm not for doing anything because of how it will look (either good or bad) to those people. We have our policies and procedures and if they love em or hate em it makes no difference.

I do have to say that the US did have the opportunity to handle the trial here. Knowing of the laws there, we should have handled it. The court there made a terrible, albeit legally allowable decision.
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Message 928179 - Posted: 23 Aug 2009, 13:50:39 UTC

Maybe the jailers just didn't want to take care of the guy as he dies an ugly death from cancer. They sent him home so that his family can watch him die and clean up the messes he makes as he dies.
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Message 928504 - Posted: 24 Aug 2009, 23:35:51 UTC

From Canadian Dimension


ArticlesUSA Politics and Foreign Policy

Web Exclusive: WALRUS BULLS BELLOWING ON A BEACH
John Chuckman | August 24th 2009

I am disappointed with the view of some knowledgeable commentators over Scotland’s release of the dying man who was convicted of the Lockerbie-airline bombing.

From a purely power-politics point of view, of course, they are right: judging by the ugly noises echoing across the oceans from America, Scotland has done itself no favor.

But if all affairs are to be carried on in every country from that point of view, it seems to me that it is acceptance of America’s right to dictate every matter over the planet, including such intimate matters as how individual countries interpret justice and the government of laws.

This is the acceptance of a de facto aristocracy running the world since American voters - and only about half of eligible Americans bother to vote - represent only a percent or so of the planet¹s population. It is remarkable how many Americans do not understand the basic point that not everything a democracy does is democratic or decent or even acceptable, especially things done outside its borders.

Democracies abuse power just as surely as any other form of government, and a democracy with the immense military power of the United States a power virtually cancerous to genuine democratic values - provides a case study in the inexorable workings of Lord Acton’s dictum.

It would also represent a repression of all the better motives from which individuals and societies act now and then, surprising us and raising the standard of human behavior from the violent-chimpanzee standard that tends to hold for much of humanity and is especially notable in America’s international affairs.

That is unacceptable to most people who are not Americans or who are not dedicated flatterers of America seeking leftovers being dropped from its groaning table.

You only have to ask yourself how Americans themselves would react to others telling them how they should run their court system. The sound would be deafening, like the bellowing of walrus bulls on a stony beach in mating season, which is actually pretty close to the sound of some of America’s professional-victim families today.

Mercy is never misplaced, and I think Scottish justice has reached an admirable decision despite the bellowing of the unthinking American families we have heard from for years.

Apart from that, and a very important consideration, it is almost certain that al-Megrahi is innocent, having been fitted up by American intelligence desperate for a scapegoat with the relentless political pressure of the walrus-bull families.

I have to say, also, I always find it troubling to read the press repeating the lines about 270 victims for the thousandth time. It is an American mantra, emphasizing the special and precious nature of American lives over all others, at least, that is, the lives of upper middle-class Americans.

Rarely do we read an accurate perspective on the Lockerbie event.

The United States Navy stupidly shot down an Iranian airliner with 300 souls aboard as it observed the devastation of the Iran-Iraq War, a devastation America had an important hand in extending.

Those 300 innocent men, women, and children received no mercy, and their horrible deaths certainly never saw any justice. Their families never received compensation. And no apology was even offered by Americans, a disgusting set of behaviors, entirely.

Lockerbie was absolutely clearly revenge, but no one knows who actually committed the act of revenge.

I might offer the observation, too, that it is the same bellowing Americans always ready to use capital punishment or torture and assassinate opponents or, indeed, to invade the lands of those with whom they disagree, bombing and killing countless innocents ­ three million just in Vietnam, another million or so in the Cambodia they de-stabilized, and another million or so in Iraq.

The whole pattern of the two acts of wanton destruction explains the basis for the so-called War on Terror. It is simply America’s saying, “I can do to you, but you can’t do to me.”
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Message 928513 - Posted: 25 Aug 2009, 0:15:26 UTC - in response to Message 928504.  

I agree that the US oversteps its bounds, expects its interpretations to be accepted across all cultures, legal systems, and walks of life, and has an unreasonable expectation of the world to follow its lead. I agree.

However, I also feel that it is a legitimate complaint to protest the release of this guy. Not because of US standards, not because of US laws, and not because of US popular opinion; rather the fact that the worst of us should not be vindicated short of standards which constitute a finding of innocence.

I feel that the position against releasing this individual transcends US doctrine and dogma, and is a legitimate, humanitarian complaint. That's just how I feel.
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Message 928570 - Posted: 25 Aug 2009, 5:16:48 UTC

I understand that very well.
My only question is what purpose is served by keeping the villain in prison?
He has 90 days left in this life. Those with righteous religious vengence feelings can take consolation in thinking this guy will stand before God and face judgement.
Those with no religious inclinations can know this guy will rot in a box under the dirt soon enough.

Can he not have 90 days to make peace with his family before spending eternity in hell or obliviously in the ground as nothing more than worm food?
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Message 928614 - Posted: 25 Aug 2009, 13:59:06 UTC

On the question of the man's guilt, the BBC show "The Conspiracy Files" recently covered Lockerbie:

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6

The conviction al-Megrahi does not appear safe, crucial evidence was withheld from the defense team. But even if he was guilty, EU members do not have the death penalty and Scotland has a compassionate release system.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 928620 - Posted: 25 Aug 2009, 14:59:43 UTC - in response to Message 928570.  


My only question is what purpose is served by keeping the villain in prison?


A better question is what purpose is served by letting him go?

For me, "compassion" isn't a good enough reason. By not having capital punishment, you have shown humanity and compassion. Besides, compassion is not owed to this person.

The other problem (and here's a whole other can of worms), is that compassion isn't applied equally. Many people have died in prison being denied compassionate release under the same venue, people that were not violent criminals. That's a problem.
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Message 928796 - Posted: 26 Aug 2009, 14:22:18 UTC - in response to Message 928620.  


My only question is what purpose is served by keeping the villain in prison?


A better question is what purpose is served by letting him go?

For me, "compassion" isn't a good enough reason. By not having capital punishment, you have shown humanity and compassion. Besides, compassion is not owed to this person.

The other problem (and here's a whole other can of worms), is that compassion isn't applied equally. Many people have died in prison being denied compassionate release under the same venue, people that were not violent criminals. That's a problem.


Many?

Of the 31 applications over the last decade, 24 prisoners have been freed on compassionate grounds in Scotland, including al-Megrahi. Another seven applications were turned down because the medical evidence did not support the claim.


7/31 failed applications with supporting medical evidence, while not great for the 7 affected, does not seem to be that many.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 928865 - Posted: 26 Aug 2009, 19:49:09 UTC - in response to Message 928012.  

As for any American opening his or her mouth moaning about it or Libya’s past “state sponsoring of terrorism” or expressing disgust at Britain you would do well to look at your own country who has covertly over the years been one of the biggest state sponsors of terrorism in the world and has had a hand in toppling many governments etc by sponsoring terrorists in that and other country’s or playing both sides in wars, it seams you don’t like things done on your doorstep like 9/11 yet your dam countries citizens were only to happy to allow the rising of money for the IRA and other paramilitary groups in Ireland etc, etc, and you as a nation are only to happy to trade with undesirable nations or install sympathetic dictators and generally interfere.


With respect to you personally b101uk, we don't let mass murderers go to score better trade deals w/ other countries.


With respect Sir, may I mention the name of William Calley? If that name is not familiar to you, I was living in Australia at the time of the My Lai Massacre - thats a big hint. The Australian Army saw service in Vietnam, so we were quite used to news reports about Vietnam, but this was different. Three-and-a-half years of 'house arrest' for his part in the slaughter of 350 - 500 people?! All civilians - women, children and the elderly were not excluded. Perhaps, someone higher up, may have given such dreadful orders, but any member of the UK Services would tell you that, they are illegal orders and should be disobeyed. Various Nazis and SS members, used the same excuse of following orders and they were hanged! But, three-and-a-half years? During my time in the RAF, I can well remember NorAid - the IRA regarded the USA as a safe haven and a huge bank account. If an IRA man escaped to the US, he was virtually guaranteed of not being sent back to the UK - truly, it was a haven for terrorists in those days. Sadly the US only really learned how blinded by hatred, terrorists are, in recent years.



Don't take life too seriously, as you'll never come out of it alive!
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Message 928951 - Posted: 27 Aug 2009, 3:42:37 UTC - in response to Message 928796.  



7/31 failed applications with supporting medical evidence, while not great for the 7 affected, does not seem to be that many.


That's almost 20% of applicants in the last ten years alone.
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Message 928991 - Posted: 27 Aug 2009, 9:59:59 UTC - in response to Message 928951.  

or look at it as 77% have succeeded
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Message 929204 - Posted: 28 Aug 2009, 4:56:27 UTC - in response to Message 928865.  

With respect Sir, may I mention the name of William Calley? If that name is not familiar to you, I was living in Australia at the time of the My Lai Massacre - thats a big hint. The Australian Army saw service in Vietnam, so we were quite used to news reports about Vietnam, but this was different. Three-and-a-half years of 'house arrest' for his part in the slaughter of 350 - 500 people?! All civilians - women, children and the elderly were not excluded. Perhaps, someone higher up, may have given such dreadful orders, but any member of the UK Services would tell you that, they are illegal orders and should be disobeyed. Various Nazis and SS members, used the same excuse of following orders and they were hanged! But, three-and-a-half years? During my time in the RAF, I can well remember NorAid - the IRA regarded the USA as a safe haven and a huge bank account. If an IRA man escaped to the US, he was virtually guaranteed of not being sent back to the UK - truly, it was a haven for terrorists in those days. Sadly the US only really learned how blinded by hatred, terrorists are, in recent years.

You may bring him up. Someone, a lot of someones, should have gotten the firing squad over that. IIRC Lt. Calley was told that the inhabitants were "the enemy." There is the issue of mens rea. Did he know when he issued the order they weren't the enemy? I suspect that, or how hard it is to prove, is why he got the light sentence. However killing babies should have given him the death sentence just as all the men who followed those clearly illegal orders should have. The Pentagon or CIA intelligence officer who told him all enemy should have also gotten capital punishment.

I realize that the people on the other side of the pond will be shocked to consider capital punishment. Americans are barbarians. It would serve you not to forget this.

I was recently reading a memoir of a prominent citizen of a small community. In it he described the vigilance committee he belonged to. After some accused criminal had been captured they would meet in the town square. It would be asked what was to be done. After a pause someone would shout out "hang him!" And just to be civil, "A motion has been made to hang name of criminal, all in favor say aye." The mob would then proceed to the jail, overpower the deputy, drag the hapless to a gallows and dispatch him. This "extra judicial" process is what made America and it became part of the culture. Mind you if was the European transplant that did this.

As to compassion Americans have shown it occasionally, when it was in their interest. The A-bombs on Japan were compassion. If they had not been available the US would have done to the Japanese what Hitler tried to do to the Jews. They would have exterminated them from the face of the earth.

Finally as to Lt Calley. If proving what he, those under his command, and those who gave the intelligence was easy, why hasn't the Hague gone after them?

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Message 929252 - Posted: 28 Aug 2009, 14:48:00 UTC - in response to Message 929204.  

With respect Sir, may I mention the name of William Calley? If that name is not familiar to you, I was living in Australia at the time of the My Lai Massacre - thats a big hint. The Australian Army saw service in Vietnam, so we were quite used to news reports about Vietnam, but this was different. Three-and-a-half years of 'house arrest' for his part in the slaughter of 350 - 500 people?! All civilians - women, children and the elderly were not excluded. Perhaps, someone higher up, may have given such dreadful orders, but any member of the UK Services would tell you that, they are illegal orders and should be disobeyed. Various Nazis and SS members, used the same excuse of following orders and they were hanged! But, three-and-a-half years? During my time in the RAF, I can well remember NorAid - the IRA regarded the USA as a safe haven and a huge bank account. If an IRA man escaped to the US, he was virtually guaranteed of not being sent back to the UK - truly, it was a haven for terrorists in those days. Sadly the US only really learned how blinded by hatred, terrorists are, in recent years.

You may bring him up. Someone, a lot of someones, should have gotten the firing squad over that. IIRC Lt. Calley was told that the inhabitants were "the enemy." There is the issue of mens rea. Did he know when he issued the order they weren't the enemy? I suspect that, or how hard it is to prove, is why he got the light sentence. However killing babies should have given him the death sentence just as all the men who followed those clearly illegal orders should have. The Pentagon or CIA intelligence officer who told him all enemy should have also gotten capital punishment.

I realize that the people on the other side of the pond will be shocked to consider capital punishment. Americans are barbarians. It would serve you not to forget this.

I was recently reading a memoir of a prominent citizen of a small community. In it he described the vigilance committee he belonged to. After some accused criminal had been captured they would meet in the town square. It would be asked what was to be done. After a pause someone would shout out "hang him!" And just to be civil, "A motion has been made to hang name of criminal, all in favor say aye." The mob would then proceed to the jail, overpower the deputy, drag the hapless to a gallows and dispatch him. This "extra judicial" process is what made America and it became part of the culture. Mind you if was the European transplant that did this.

As to compassion Americans have shown it occasionally, when it was in their interest. The A-bombs on Japan were compassion. If they had not been available the US would have done to the Japanese what Hitler tried to do to the Jews. They would have exterminated them from the face of the earth.

Finally as to Lt Calley. If proving what he, those under his command, and those who gave the intelligence was easy, why hasn't the Hague gone after them?



You may care to observe, that my post, was a riposte of sorts, made to Blurf and would have to say, that unless he has any substantiated proof to his cooments regarding trade, they are simply speculation and heresay, at best. At worst they are libel and slander.

You might even be surprised to learn that I am actually in favour of 'capital punishment, and quite frankly, after US politicians, military commanders and citizens (not all, but some) 'slate' the UK and its Health Service and its troops in Afghanistan, can you be surprised if I will throw a snow-ball?! Having said that, Calley was found to be guilty, under the processes of your country and what happened was a fact - not a rumour.

I'm astounded that you can call the use of an Atomic Bomb, to be an act of compassion - its akin to using VX to kill a few ants in the garden!

For what it is worth, I felt that the release of Al Megrahi was a mistake, that happened due to the Scottish Government's lack of 'experience' in International Affairs. Believe me, it was not that well received, in this country.




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Message 929350 - Posted: 28 Aug 2009, 22:44:29 UTC - in response to Message 929252.  



I'm astounded that you can call the use of an Atomic Bomb, to be an act of compassion


That's the first time I've seen that little piece of revisionist history myself.













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Message 929960 - Posted: 31 Aug 2009, 16:03:15 UTC

Lets not forget:
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Message 930002 - Posted: 31 Aug 2009, 18:52:43 UTC - in response to Message 929960.  

Lets not forget:


How is remembrance served by argument over the release of a person who in all likelihood was the victim of a miscarriage of justice? Or by attacking the integrity of our allies?

I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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