Now i will begin by saying that life is abundant in the universe and there is alot of life and i will post links to support these.
I believe first of all that all life in our universe is carbon based, for those of you who expect silicon based life that cant happen ,it would have happened here on earth already , Why you may ask the answer lies in the difference in strenght between the carbon hydrogen bond and silicon hydrogen bond .But i will not go into that right now. Now on 13 of April 2006 NASA reported huge clouds of alcoholic gas around a star, for those who dont believe the link is below
HUGE VOLUMES OF ALCOHOL IN THE UNIVERSE FOUND

Now many might say too bad we are too far from this place, but all of us know how alcohol is made. alcohol requires a sugar which is a carbon based complex molecule and yeast. Now yeast is practically a living organism and sugars are not artificial molecules they are produced by a complex chemical process that cant in any way be random.secondly there are no silicon sugar molecule that i know of. Thats the proof.

---

We choose to go to the moon and to do other things, we choose to go to the moon not because its easy but because its hard. kennedy

Sorry, that article is about Methanol, which is not made from sugar and yeast.

Methanol can be created from carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide and hydrogen in the presence of modest pressures and temperatures (200 atmospheres, 450 C).

The type of alcohol you were thinking of is Ethanol. Both Methanol and Ethanol are considered "Organic compounds", but that only means they contain carbon. The name "Organic" is left over from a time when it was thought that these compounds required life to be created, but we've know since the 1800s that this is not the case.


as for the idea that "all life in our universe is carbon based", there is an interesting answer to that question from the NASA site directly:
http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/980221b.html

Its a very interesting article!

But i think LXicon is correct. The article does say that the gas cloud contains Methanol as opposed to Ethanol which is the stuff we distill when we make beer, wine and spirits.

Methanol; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol

Ethanol; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol

Alcohol; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol

There are several ways to synthesise Methanol that could well happen naturally in the star forming region of a Galaxy.

But i do agree that life is common and carbon based life is probably the most common. I don't agree that life cannot be based on silicon, i think its less likely, but not impossible.

Here is an image of some Irish Man-Made Ethanol - . People say that the taste of Guinness is "Out of this World!" ...LOL

John.

---

I was just expecting that kind of reasoning but i have a defense for it. Lets look at planet earth, how do we get most of our methanol ,the answer is as a by product in the brewing process ,isnt that so. now look at the properties of methanol and ethanol ,why is it that ethanol is used as a substitute for gasoline after some modification and the answer is starring you in the face its burns fairly easily as compared to methanol isnt that so. Now look at our gas cloud of methanol in a very hot enviroment ,do you sincerly think you will detect ethanol no because the ethanol will have long since dissapeared due to the fact that it burns fairly easily as compared to its cousin methanol.I know that there several ways to synthesize methanol but considering the scale ,you are assuming to much that carbon dioxiode and carbon monoxide with hydrogen came in under high pressure and temperature and created that uniform gas cloud of methanol for that would be a random process to happen and i highly doubt that that gas cloud would be a uniform cloud of methanol lets use arcums razor here. ASK your self would traces of ethanol have survived such temperatures and the answer is no. As to the question that life can be silicon based ,no way thats wild imagination ,you need to go as far as the processes of electron transfer between carbon based complex molecules and silicon based complex hydrate molecules to prove that it cant happen again lets turn to our planet for answers ,why havent we found any silicon based life forms on earth ,despite all conditions the answers ls due to the fact that there is difference in electron transfer in carbonbased complex molecules and silicon based complex molecules and for life to occur i.e replication and so on electron transfer is the fundamental principle, other wise you cant have nerves or a brain to function let alone afunctioning cell membrane you will just remain sand. Everything is simple my friends dont make things difficult the answers have always been starring us in the face but we just love complex explanations ,may be we should look at what CARL SAGAN SAID AS TO HOW TO DIFFERENTIATE THE FACT FROM FICTION.

---

We choose to go to the moon and to do other things, we choose to go to the moon not because its easy but because its hard. kennedy

When I was a boy I used to build model airplanes with two stroke engines, I made myself the fuel mixing methanol and castor oil as a lubricant and I still remember their smell. Happy days!
Tullio

---

The question is which of the two burns more than the other, not that methnol doesnt burn.ALMOST ANY SUBSTANCE BURNS IF THE CONDITIONS ARE TUNED FOR IT TO HAPPEN.

The largest single use of ethanol is as a motor fuel and fuel additive. Brazil has the largest national fuel ethanol industry. Gasoline sold in Brazil contains at least 25% anhydrous ethanol. Hydrous ethanol (about 95% ethanol and 5% water) can be used as fuel in more than 90% of new cars sold in the country. Brazilian ethanol production is praised for the high carbon sequestration capabilities of the sugar cane plantations, thus making it a real option to combat climate change.[25]

Methanol is used on a limited basis to fuel internal combustion engines, mainly by virtue of the fact that it is not nearly as flammable as gasoline. Methanol is harder to ignite than gasoline and produces just one-eighth of the heat upon burning. Pure methanol is required by rule to be used in Champcars, Monster Trucks, USAC sprint cars (as well as midgets, modifieds, etc.), and other dirt track series such as World of Outlaws, and Motorcycle Speedway. Methanol is also used in radio control, control line and free flight airplanes (as methanol is required in the "glow-plug" engines that primarily power them), cars and trucks, from such an engine's use of a platinum filament glow plug being able to ignite the methanol vapor through a catalytic reaction

And thats just one way of looking at it of how a mixture of ethanol gas and methanol gas over time remains just methanol. The other is that ethanol as a compound perspates in more chemical reactions than methanol.

Ethanol is classified as a primary alcohol, meaning that the carbon to which its hydroxyl group is attached has at least two hydrogen atoms attached to it as well.

The chemistry of ethanol is largely that of its hydroxyl group.

Acid-base chemistry

Ethanol's hydroxyl group causes the molecule to be slightly basic. It is almost neutral like water. The pH of 100% ethanol is 7.33, compared to 7.00 for pure water. Ethanol can be quantitatively converted to its conjugate base, the ethoxide ion (CH3CH2O−), by reaction with an alkali metal such as sodium:[11]

2 CH3CH2OH + 2 Na → 2 CH3CH2ONa + H2,

or a very strong base such as sodium hydride:

CH3CH2OH + NaH → CH3CH2ONa + H2.

This reaction is not possible in an aqueous solution, as water is more acidic, so that hydroxide is preferred over ethoxide formation.

Halogenation

Ethanol reacts with hydrogen halides to produce ethyl halides such as ethyl chloride and ethyl bromide:

CH3CH2OH + HCl → CH3CH2Cl + H2O

HCl reaction requires a catalyst such as zinc chloride.[19] Hydrogen chloride in the presence of their respective zinc chloride is known as Lucas reagent.[11][19]

CH3CH2OH + HBr → CH3CH2Br + H2O

HBr requires refluxing with a sulfuric acid catalyst.[19]

Ethyl halides can also be produced by reacting ethanol with more specialized halogenating agents, such as thionyl chloride for preparing ethyl chloride, or phosphorus tribromide for preparing ethyl bromide.[11][19]

CH3CH2OH + SOCl2 → CH3CH2Cl + SO2 + HCl

Haloform reaction

"The haloform reaction is a chemical reaction where a haloform (CHX3, where X is a halogen) is produced by the exhaustive halogenation of a methyl ketone (a molecule containing the R-CO-CH3 group) in the presence of a base.[20]" See main "Haloform reaction" article.

Ester formation

Under acid-catalyzed conditions, ethanol reacts with carboxylic acids to produce ethyl esters and water:

RCOOH + HOCH2CH3 → RCOOCH2CH3 + H2O.

For this reaction to produce useful yields it is necessary to remove water from the reaction mixture as it is formed.

Ethanol can also form esters with inorganic acids. Diethyl sulfate and triethyl phosphate, prepared by reacting ethanol with sulfuric and phosphoric acid respectively, are both useful ethylating agents in organic synthesis. Ethyl nitrite, prepared from the reaction of ethanol with sodium nitrite and sulfuric acid, was formerly a widely-used diuretic.

Dehydration

Strong acid desiccants, such as sulfuric acid, cause ethanol's dehydration to form either diethyl ether or ethylene:

2 CH3CH2OH → CH3CH2OCH2CH3 + H2O (on 120'C)
CH3CH2OH → H2C=CH2 + H2O (on 180'C)

Which product, diethyl ether or ethylene, predominates depends on the precise reaction conditions

Oxidation

Ethanol can be oxidized to acetaldehyde, and further oxidized to acetic acid. In the human body, these oxidation reactions are catalyzed by enzymes. In the laboratory, aqueous solutions of strong oxidizing agents, such as chromic acid or potassium permanganate, oxidize ethanol to acetic acid, and it is difficult to stop the reaction at acetaldehyde at high yield. Ethanol can be oxidized to acetaldehyde, without over oxidation to acetic acid, by reacting it with pyridinium chromic chloride.[19]

The direct oxidation of ethanol to acetic acid using chromic acid is given below.

C2H5OH + 2 [O] → CH3COOH + H2O

The oxidation product of ethanol, acetic acid, is spent as nutrient by the human body as acetyl CoA, where the acetyl group can be spent as energy or used for biosynthesis.

Chlorination

When exposed to chlorine, ethanol is both oxidized and its alpha carbon chlorinated to form the compound, chloral.

4 Cl2 + C2H5OH → CCl3CHO + 5HCl

Combustion

Combustion of ethanol forms carbon dioxide and water:

C2H5OH(g) + 3 O2(g) → 2 CO2(g) + 3 H2O(l);(ΔHr = −1409 kJ/mol[21])


These are all they other ways ethanol can disapear from a mixed cloud of both ethanol and methanol over time,leaving methanol for you to discover later.make your own experiment and measure which of they two decreases faster than the other over time in such an enviroment.

---

We choose to go to the moon and to do other things, we choose to go to the moon not because its easy but because its hard. kennedy

kasule,
I understand the point you are making, but it still does not prove that the gas cloud you refer to in your first post is proof of life.

The use of the word "Alcohol" in the article title is misleading. The Author should have used the word "Methanol", its was bad journalism.

John.

---

It may be true that that alone doesnt prove that there is life in the universe, but i would like to ask if anyone would know what would happen if our earth was destroyed completely for example by a near by supernovae explosion what would happen to all the organic matter ,if for example some thousands of years later some civilization with our technology today detected organic gases somewhere in our solar system what organic matreal would they detect.does any one have a formula how that methanol is being formed ,because saying that its just carbon dioxiode and carbon monoxide with hydrogen under pressure is not enough.

---

We choose to go to the moon and to do other things, we choose to go to the moon not because its easy but because its hard. kennedy

By Steve Gorman

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - The amino acid glycine, a fundamental building block of proteins, has been found in a comet for the first time, bolstering the theory that raw ingredients of life arrived on Earth from outer space, scientists said on Monday.

Microscopic traces of glycine were discovered in a sample of particles retrieved from the tail of comet Wild 2 by the NASA spacecraft Stardust deep in the solar system some 242 million miles (390 million km) from Earth, in January 2004

AMINO ACID GLYCINE FUNDAMENTAL BUILDING BLOCK OF LIFE FOUND ON COMET

---

We choose to go to the moon and to do other things, we choose to go to the moon not because its easy but because its hard. kennedy

The logic you are using is actually very good. Its a good idea looking for signs of life that may be extinct, then we could theoretically find some trace they left behind.

Read Methanol Production, it gives several chemical formula's and some can easily be applied to processes that could happen naturally.

But i do agree, the concept is good. When Kepler finds planets, the next step is to use this theory to look closer at the planets to try detect gases that do not occur naturally.

John.

---

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

Meteorites Could Preserve Evidence of Alien Life

Organic Molecules Found Outside our Solar System



Molecules From Space May Have Affected Life On Earth

---

We choose to go to the moon and to do other things, we choose to go to the moon not because its easy but because its hard. kennedy

Meteorites Could Preserve Evidence of Alien Life

Organic Molecules Found Outside our Solar System



Molecules From Space May Have Affected Life On Earth

Kasule,
I read the 3 articles, and depending on how you class "Life", they almost do prove life is, most likely, common in our galaxy, and through-out the universe.

There is a vast body of evidence being produced today from the study of comets and meteorites to say that life is common. Experiments have shown that amino acids are the building blocks of life, we are now finding these in lots of material from comets and meteorites.

John.

---

INTERESTING PODCASTS

---

We choose to go to the moon and to do other things, we choose to go to the moon not because its easy but because its hard. kennedy

Kasule, I enjoyed reading the many articles you have linked to but I hope you are not suggesting that they are in any way absolute proof of life.

I agree with you that they definitely could be the product of life (you have shown this conclusively in your several posts) or specifically a product of a biological process, but I agree with Johnney: they are in no way conclusive proof of life itself. The articles and information you have provided here are what is called circumstantial evidence. You are making an inference that life exists without any direct evidence. It is a common mistake to make, and routinely used in debates that try to prove the existence of one god or another, for example:

Science cannot explain X completely.
Aliens/God could explain X.
Therefore Aliens/God exist.

This is a logical fallacy. You should avoid them at all costs. Another example:

Scientists for many years were highly confident that water existed below the surface of Mars. Radar of the surface showed a frozen water like layer. Images of the surface showed river like beds of sedimentary. The Spirit and Opportunity rovers took pictures of formations that through our understanding could only be made by water. This body of evidence was overwhelming, but no official claim could be made that water exists on Mars because it is not *direct* proof, simply circumstantial proof. It was not until the NASA Phoenix lander successfully imaged and recorded the presence of water that it could be claimed conclusively that water did infact exist on the surface.

At the moment no direct conclusive evidence for life outside Earth exists. You can believe it to your heart's desire but that does not make it true unfortunately. I, like you, want there to be life elsewhere, the current understanding of how life originates suggest that it should be common in our universe, but for all the probabilities and measurements of methane, methanol and organic compounds or anything else. Nothing will substitute an intelligent radio signal, or microbial bacteria etc.

One last time: At the moment no direct conclusive evidence for life outside Earth exists.

Thanks alot for your reply and i agree with you 100%, but i always tend not to go with the crowd of thought and move on to other possiblities, If you read the various issues i have discussed on seti boards you will see that i never go with the crowd.Its true that the best way to get evidence of life is by a radio signal, thats why i run my slow machine 24/7 trying to help seti get one.But there is alot more out there that can be looked at in a retrospective way. Namely can silicon based life exit, i have tried researching that to the basis of electron transfer between silicon compounds and carbon compounds and it seems impossible, Secondly if life exits or at one time exited some where what would we be seeing now, thats looking at it from an angle of an archeologist only from a distance, how are and why are there abundant carbon complex molecules in outer space and how are they formed and are they related in any way to the origin of life on earth, if so what is the probability of it occurring in other exoplanets.What would happen or be detected from light years away if a planet filled with organic matter like earth were destroyed ,would we at our level of civilization detect that event,how would we do it and what would we be looking for. I ask these questions on this board because the seti community is a massive parrellel brain computer and there people who are very qualified to answer many of the questions or work out future plans on how to work them out. And i believe everyones idea is a golden one so i read practically every scientific theory or idea that i come across and bring it here for dissection, after all there many ways to detect ,or formulate thoughts that may well work well in future projects or even a hint of what is out there . I would like to thank you all especially johanny for looking at my articles and dissecting them in that way we shall progress forward. As a medical doctor i am trained to detect illness by histroy, signs and symptoms and of course were facilities are available by investigations and i can tell you one thing for sure all signs and symptoms in outer universe from my point of view point to abundant carbon based life, its only the lab tests lacking in these case to make a fullscale diagnosis but we already have a working diagnosis.

---

We choose to go to the moon and to do other things, we choose to go to the moon not because its easy but because its hard. kennedy

In September 1969 a medium sized meteorite entered the Earth's atmosphere, breaking up into pieces and falling over parts of Australia. It became known as the Merchison meteorite. About 100kg of rock material was recovered and collected in total from fragments. Tests conducted on the rock have shown various compounds that raise many questions.


The fragments are unusual in that they are carbonaceous chondrite (containing tiny areas of of chondrites- once mmolten minerals, iron magnesium, olivine, pyroxene etc.). Most meteors are not composed like this

The carbonaceous part refers to the carbon compounds, ie organic compounds.

An interesting aspect of the samples is that amino acids are present. So far 92 different aminos have been identified, common ones like glycine, alanine, glutamic acid, some more unusual ones like isovaline, pseudoleucine, of the aminos, nineteen are found on earth... the others are not.

Aminos can come in two forms left handed and right handed, one a mirror image of the other. Earth has for some strange reason a majority of left handed aminos, the right handed ones are rare. The fragments also contain compounds that facilitate the RNA, DNA construction process, enabling the "carrying" of information to be achieved inside a living being.

The fragments contain both left and right handed aminos in abundance.

For these building blocks of nature to exist in the fragments, they must have existed, billions of years ago, long before "life" started on earth and possibly most other places. Certainly long before the solar system formed planets.

Galaxies are acting like localised seas of nutrients.

Your concept of other life forms being based on radically different chemistry that behaves in different ways to the "known" left handed aminos and RNA-DNA structures ... a definite possibility.