> 2 hours, 4 hours, 8 hours, who cares? Can anyone explain to me why this is
> important?

Say you had a car that would run at 70 miles per hour and burned fuel at a rate of 20 miles per gallon. Now lets say the car would suddenly only go 50 miles per hour but it still burned fuel at the 20 miles per gallon rate. Would you not question that?

I think people are concerned about the increase in processing time because there is no apparent reason for it other than a newer version of SETI@home, which means it could be an indication of an error in the code.

---

2 hours, 4 hours, 8 hours, who cares? Can anyone explain to me why this is important? If Berkeley released jumbo WU's that took 5 days to process on high end CPU's, would everyone abandon Seti?

No. We ("I") would wait longer or if possible, put some more nodes.

-because we need them.

-because it's nice to see a finishing WU

-because it's nice to see our modest contributions is handled as a jewel and
find the way directly to science..

- because we suffer a common mental irregularity

-because there is more fun so see, your farm have done today xyz WU's
(More valid for seti, LHC and Pirates WU)

-because we support the project and in our(my) restricted brain level, we think
as more WUs are done, the better help for science is done.

ask a fishman, how long must the fish be? He will give back "fresh, done today"

Boinc can be done even on rainy days

> Yeah, I read it in a different thread. I wouldn't have gotten mad, I would
> have just wondered where you ran off to. ;-)

Well, I will still have a computer and will be in the forums off and on, but won't be able to access my site to make repairs. Not that that seems to matter this week, I have not been able to work on it anyway ... anyone have a spare brain?

> > Oh, on that note, I am learning how to use my iPod and that seems to be
> going
> > well ... though the 40 Gig model is too small for my complete library ...
> sigh ...

I can see I was not clear ...

Well, the iPod is a 40G model, my music library has 11,000 or so tracks and is 43.something GBytes in size. The iPod actually only will take about 37 GBytes anyway and I have it crammed full ...

> > I still don't have a good model for having portable documentation. I
> have
> > tried a couple of tools in the freeware/shareware arena and I cannot get
> a
> > product that I like ... :(
> >
> > If I can ever find one ... well ... we will see ... But, all of my stuff
> takes
> > up 361 MB ... and growing ...

> I don't understand why 361 MB won't fit in 40 GB. Do you have a lot of other
> stuff taking up that much space?

The web site is 361 GBytes and growing. I have tried to package it up to make it available as a down-load, but there is so many cross-connections that it is hard to slice it up to make it available as a downloadable module; or modules.

So, for those with Cable modem or DSL there is not much of a need to download it, but for the dial-up there is, but they have to take it all or nothing...

> > > I love the enhancements Janus has been making to the site. It can
> only
> > get
> > > better!
>
> The forum format is out of whack though....

Yeah, for some reason, a close table tag seems to not be emitted. Or at least that is what I see when I look at the source ... It may be a whole nother problem entirely though ...

---

> > Hey Paul, how goes the "vacation", or haven't you left yet? I
> believe
> > the link to your online documentation is a great idea. How about a link
> to
> > the downloadable docs as well? This way people will have a choice
> whether
> > online or offline.
>
> I have not left yet .. the 20th ... I just did not want people to get mad at
> me because I did not keep them informed...

Yeah, I read it in a different thread. I wouldn't have gotten mad, I would have just wondered where you ran off to. ;-)

>
> Oh, on that note, I am learning how to use my iPod and that seems to be going
> well ... though the 40 Gig model is too small for my complete library ... sigh
> ...
>
> I still don't have a good model for having portable documentation. I have
> tried a couple of tools in the freeware/shareware arena and I cannot get a
> product that I like ... :(
>
> If I can ever find one ... well ... we will see ... But, all of my stuff takes
> up 361 MB ... and growing ...

I don't understand why 361 MB won't fit in 40 GB. Do you have a lot of other stuff taking up that much space?

> > I love the enhancements Janus has been making to the site. It can only
> get
> > better!

The forum format is out of whack though....

L8R....

---

---

CAPT Siran d'Vel'nahr XO - L L & P _\\//
USS Vre'kasht NCC-33187
Winders 10 OS? "What a piece of junk!" - L. Skywalker
"Logic is the cement of our civilization with which we ascend from chaos using reason as our guide." - T'Plana-hath

> Hey Paul, how goes the "vacation", or haven't you left yet? I believe
> the link to your online documentation is a great idea. How about a link to
> the downloadable docs as well? This way people will have a choice whether
> online or offline.

I have not left yet .. the 20th ... I just did not want people to get mad at me because I did not keep them informed...

Oh, on that note, I am learning how to use my iPod and that seems to be going well ... though the 40 Gig model is too small for my complete library ... sigh ...

I still don't have a good model for having portable documentation. I have tried a couple of tools in the freeware/shareware arena and I cannot get a product that I like ... :(

If I can ever find one ... well ... we will see ... But, all of my stuff takes up 361 MB ... and growing ...

> I love the enhancements Janus has been making to the site. It can only get
> better!

---

> CyberGoyle and Carl Christensen,
>
> Thank you for that post ... for writing it, and for posting it here ... :)
>
> This is basically what I have been saying, though I don't think as well ...
>
> And it is the kind of "official" word that some have been asking for ...
>
> Siran,
>
> One of the nice things about having the multiple projects, and of the open
> software is that we can get outsiders involved with the development of the
> project.
>
> In my case, I doubt that my work will disappear anytime soon. I still have
> vague hopes that the BOINC Software will be extended so that it is easier to
> link to pages like mine so that people don't have to find out about it
> after struggling for awhile. There is an active group looking at
> SETI@Home from the perspective of optimizing the algorithms so that the
> fastest possible execution speed might be realized.
>
> I did some analysis of the database code though I do not know how much or how
> little that helped or harmed ... but I have not seen a comparable effort on
> the BOINC Work Manager ...
>
> Anyway, my current point is that the "best" ideas can be slowly accumulated
> and over time, refined. For example, Predictor@Home and LHC@Home have shown
> that a weekly summation is a "ggod" thing, and that posting a "Bugs" page may
> not be instantly fatal to the project. So, Janus is working on the web site
> and refining the code these features that he is introducing will over time
> spread to the other projects and, over time, the best ideas should be
> incorporated into the system.
>

Hey Paul, how goes the "vacation", or haven't you left yet? I believe the link to your online documentation is a great idea. How about a link to the downloadable docs as well? This way people will have a choice whether online or offline.

I love the enhancements Janus has been making to the site. It can only get better!

L8R....

---

---

CAPT Siran d'Vel'nahr XO - L L & P _\\//
USS Vre'kasht NCC-33187
Winders 10 OS? "What a piece of junk!" - L. Skywalker
"Logic is the cement of our civilization with which we ascend from chaos using reason as our guide." - T'Plana-hath

CyberGoyle and Carl Christensen,

Thank you for that post ... for writing it, and for posting it here ... :)

This is basically what I have been saying, though I don't think as well ...

And it is the kind of "official" word that some have been asking for ...

Siran,

One of the nice things about having the multiple projects, and of the open software is that we can get outsiders involved with the development of the project.

In my case, I doubt that my work will disappear anytime soon. I still have vague hopes that the BOINC Software will be extended so that it is easier to link to pages like mine so that people don't have to find out about it after struggling for awhile. There is an active group looking at SETI@Home from the perspective of optimizing the algorithms so that the fastest possible execution speed might be realized.

I did some analysis of the database code though I do not know how much or how little that helped or harmed ... but I have not seen a comparable effort on the BOINC Work Manager ...

Anyway, my current point is that the "best" ideas can be slowly accumulated and over time, refined. For example, Predictor@Home and LHC@Home have shown that a weekly summation is a "ggod" thing, and that posting a "Bugs" page may not be instantly fatal to the project. So, Janus is working on the web site and refining the code these features that he is introducing will over time spread to the other projects and, over time, the best ideas should be incorporated into the system.

---

An interesting email I saw in another thread that is relevant to this thread:

Posted: 10 Oct 2004 1:19:16 UTC
Re the topic: Most Reliable Project Award!

-- Carl Christensen, Research Officer, www.climateprediction.net

wrote the following:

Well that's a bit harsh, SETI has orders of magnitude more users and workunits & results to deal with than any other DC project. BOINC is cutting edge and still pretty new, and right now is a critical time where three projects are coming together to use it "live" with more waiting in the wings. There's no real other comparison to what BOINC entails other than actual operating systems. And Linux and Win took hundreds if not thousands of programmers over far longer time to "gel" and be stable & useful (and plenty would argue one or the other still isn't user friendly enough or stable etc). I think BOINC is actually quite a bit ahead, and CPDN, given the complexity of our climate model to run, probably helped stall & complicate things with a lot of changes required so BOINC could accomodate us (trickles, long workunits, separate monitoring program for the climate model etc); for which we're eternally grateful! So these are "interesting times" (in the sense perhaps of the apocryphal Chinese curse).

Also I don't think many people realize how much work needs to be done on DC projects, and how little money & few staff we have! For instance, the sort of project management & software engineering & planning & network & database administration I was used to in the corporate world (and you list in your letter) usually has a staff of at least 20, and we had the time & luxury to plan things out with Gantt charts and UML diagrams and big testing & release plans etc, and could hire $100-$200 an hour consultants when we needed a hand. These are all of the things we don't have time or money for on CPDN, as it's Tolu & myself doing all the computer work (we now have a new guy Neil doing the "grid" server stuff); with scientists changing requirements on us every day so my software engineering and project plans and deadlines go out the window! ;-)

Now I don't think SETI is as "volatile" as we are, but I know there's only a handful of people there that have to take care of large #'s of users and data handling and development that in the corporate world would have a nice building in Palo Alto with 50 people running things -- 15 programmers, 5 test people, 5 operations/networking types, 2 DBA types, 2 project managers at least (one BOINC, one SETI), 4-5 web designers/developers, 5 support staff (secretaries & administrators), a "press officer", 10 overpaid vice-presidents who do nothing, a CEO who takes all the money and runs when it goes public, and a call center in India. And they'd still have a tough time at it and go bankrupt in a year! ;-)

So this email isn't really an apology or excuse, it's just a little reality check. And I hope you persist with BOINC because I'm confident that after all the initial "bumps in the road" in a little while, when all the projects are up with version 4.x and the others come online, it will all be worth it. It's the best game in town as far as I'm concerned. And I know it's cliche' but I think that relatively soon, when you're running CPDN & SETI & Predictor & LHC & whatever simultaneously under BOINC and everything's working and staying up with plenty of workunits, you'll be laughing about these early "growing pains" of the 3.0/4.0 days!

-- Carl Christensen, Research Officer, www.climateprediction.net



<a>

Ok! This is my interpretation of the general consensus of frustrated people asking for information from the dev team:

1. I have not seen were anybody is asking for a steady diet of information from the dev team. They are asking for general information so that we may stay informed on why things happen the way they do.

---- All those who agree with this assessment, raise your hands. Let's see: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.... Thank you....

2. I have read and interpreted that some people replying to posts ass/u/me that people want a steady diet of information. I have not seen any evidence of this at all.

---- All those who agree with this assessment, raise your hands. Let's see: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.... Thank you....

Now, for the solution (dev team, pay close attention now):

When software is improved, re-worked to eliminate bugs, etc., wouldn't it be standard procedure to test and make notes of any anomolies before the public release? Yes, I know, that's what alpha and beta testing is for. Ok, it's tested and found that this happens longer, that happens once in a while, the next thing doesn't happen when it's supposed to, etc.

Compile a list of problems and a list of changes that affect the way the software does its work. Now, instead of just posting a short little note on the front page telling people they need to upgrade and it is mandatory, add a link to a page that reports the lists.

It's not that hard to do. This way when people find that it takes twice as long to process a WU, they can go to this page to find out why. Maybe it's more calculations, mabe it's a bug that hasn't raised its head so that the dev team can find it, who knows. This fact should have been found during the testing and noted for the linked page.

This, in my opinion, would all but eliminate the complaining. Then we can get down to our little speculations as to why this works that way or that works this way or whatever.

So people, would this not be a viable solution to our frustration with not knowing what is going on? I think so....

L8R....

---




Rick A. - BOINCing right along now.... It can only get better!

"There is no fate except that which we create for ourselves."

Live Long and Prosper....

> 2 hours, 4 hours, 8 hours, who cares? Can anyone explain to me why this is
> important? If Berkeley released jumbo WU's that took 5 days to process on high
> end CPU's, would everyone abandon Seti?
>
>
> <a>

> Would it be nice if there was a developer on call to answer everyones
> questions? Sure. Would this be enough to sate everyone's desire for
> information evertime there is a glitch or change of any kind? I doubt it.
> Allow me to ask this: exactly why is a steady information flow so critical?
> And how often should we get news updates? Hourly, daily, or weekly?
>
> Consider what would happen if Berkeley simply folded the Seti project.
> Nothing. Every Seti user would simply move on with their lives, find other
> things to do with their 'CPU cycles'. My point is, none of this is as
> important as some would make it seem in the grander scale of things....
>

Bravo, sir.




------------------------------------


The game High/Low is played by tossing two nuclear warheads into the air. The one whose bomb explodes higher wins. This game is usually played by people of low intelligence, hence the name High/Low.

Maybe someone out of UC could answere the question, please.



Greetings Basti

The speed per wu is not really that important due to the credit calculation method.

The problem is that if the estimated time for completion is 30% below actual, then it screws up the number of wus in the cache.

I run 10 day caches to avoid down time during outages. I am in danger of over running the 14 day deadline due to there now being more wus in my cache than I have time to process.

Apparently there is no extra work (science) being performed in these wus, just a bunch of extra cycles.

It is being investigated as far as I am aware. I imagine that a fix will be forthcoming :-)

Dunc

> Allow me to ask this: exactly why is a steady information flow so critical?
So we arent operating blindly. When youre at work and theres a change of procedure wouldnt you ask why that change is necessary? The WHY imparts an understanding that you could never gain simply by knowing the WHAT.

> And how often should we get news updates? Hourly, daily, or weekly?
You'll need to be more specific with what you mean by news. In regards to this topic "Why does the speed of processing a WU matter at all?" it couldve been posted on the main page WHY we were having to upgrade instead of this:
"September 30, 2004 UPDATED: A new version (4.05) of the windows SETI@home client is available (and will be automatically picked up by your core clients next time you contact our servers). Changes include: the "heads up" mode now works and the progress bar advances in a more linear fashion. Earlier today we released a similar version 4.04 which gave users checksum errors and failed to run. This has been fixed in 4.05."
This says nothing about WHY we were upgrading from 4.03, nor so much as WHAT was different.

> Consider what would happen if Berkeley simply folded the Seti project.
> Nothing. Every Seti user would simply move on with their lives, find other
> things to do with their 'CPU cycles'.
Or I could go to the other extreme and ask what would happen if every Seti user simply uninstalled the application. Considering Seti has made international news I would expect a news report calling Boinc a dismal failure.

> My point is, none of this is as
> important as some would make it seem in the grander scale of things....
Unfortunately we live in the here and now and the grander scale of things is beyond our control, maybe even our influence. We all have a common interest/goal, and that is to find out if intelligent life really does exist elsewhere in our galaxy. In sports terms we are all on the same team. And as teammates go we'd like to get some information from the head coach once in a while, especially when the team (or sport) seems headed in the wrong direction. Our complaints dont originate from a need to read our own ascii but come from a desire to see this project succeed. I dont think anyone is asking Berkeley/Boinc/Seti to be perfect. We are only asking them to provide us with info in a timely manner.

> Would it be nice if there was a developer on call to answer everyones
> questions? Sure. Would this be enough to sate everyone's desire for
> information evertime there is a glitch or change of any kind? I doubt it.
> Allow me to ask this: exactly why is a steady information flow so critical?
> And how often should we get news updates? Hourly, daily, or weekly?
>
> Consider what would happen if Berkeley simply folded the Seti project.
> Nothing. Every Seti user would simply move on with their lives, find other
> things to do with their 'CPU cycles'. My point is, none of this is as
> important as some would make it seem in the grander scale of things....
>
>
>
> <a>
>


I am with you CyberGoyle, or as I put it "Much ado about nothing", by W. Shakespear hehehehehehe




My name is Pascal and this message has no meaning, but still has my approval...

It is 10 oclock, do you know what your WUWUs are doing tonight...

> OK, lets look at it another way. Say your computer is capable of crunching a
> work unit in 3 hours. In one year, you could crunch 8 WU's per day in 365 days
> or 2920 WU's per year. Now lets say the same work unit takes 6 hours. You
> could now crunch 1460 WU's per year. What's the difference, you say? Well,,
> you could leave your computer powered off for half a year at the 3 hour rate
> and still accomplish the same amount of science. And you would use half the
> electrical energy to do that work.
>
> Now keep in mind, if the new WU's under 4.05 do more intense or different
> processing for a scientific reason, fine. That's a whole different situation.
> We haven't seen anything from the Boinc Set Admin. that says that. If it's a
> mistake or just a strategy to relieve the network load, it's wrong. Just tell
> us to back off until hardware/software problems are solved. Or stop the down
> loadable WU's.
>
> We were told Boinc Seti was ready to transfer to (from Seti Classic). I still
> have Seti Classic on my machines and Will be glad to switch back if that would
> help. Only feedback from the project is what is needed. It doesn't seem that
> complex to me. Maybe I'm missing something?
>
> I guess it's like using a 120 watt light bulb where a 60 watt bulb would
> suffice.


EXACTLY

Would it be nice if there was a developer on call to answer everyones questions? Sure. Would this be enough to sate everyone's desire for information evertime there is a glitch or change of any kind? I doubt it. Allow me to ask this: exactly why is a steady information flow so critical? And how often should we get news updates? Hourly, daily, or weekly?

Consider what would happen if Berkeley simply folded the Seti project. Nothing. Every Seti user would simply move on with their lives, find other things to do with their 'CPU cycles'. My point is, none of this is as important as some would make it seem in the grander scale of things....



<a>

> OK, lets look at it another way. Say your computer is capable of crunching a
> work unit in 3 hours. In one year, you could crunch 8 WU's per day in 365 days
> or 2920 WU's per year. Now lets say the same work unit takes 6 hours. You
> could now crunch 1460 WU's per year. What's the difference, you say? Well,,
> you could leave your computer powered off for half a year at the 3 hour rate
> and still accomplish the same amount of science. And you would use half the
> electrical energy to do that work.
>
That's the best answer yet. Additionally we could crunch another project for that half year.
The point is Berkeley needs to keep us informed. Lack of communication seems to be the biggest reoccuring complaint.
Was the upgrade precipitated by the errors being experienced by our win98 users? If so then have a seperate Boinc release for XP and Win98, otherwise they are fixing something that isnt broken.
If this latest version takes longer because the WUs are more complex then thats fine. If this latest version takes longer because it analyzes the data in a more complex and detailed way then fine. If this latest version takes longer because of additional debugging and error checking to be put forward into a future release then fine. BUT AT LEAST TELL US ABOUT IT!