The unions have been hung by their own petards..............

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Message 834414 - Posted: 26 Nov 2008, 6:06:03 UTC

I think Unions contributed to the rise of the middle class in this country (USA). It took bloodshed to get money out of the hands of the capitalists that own business. But Unions appear to have lost the war with Globalization. You can't compete against dirt cheap labor. The masses of workers in the USA have a very poor future in my view. That does not bode well for the long term future of the USA either. We will be nothing better than a third world nation with rich and poor and not much in between.

The middle class in the USA is an endangered species with the decline of Unions. Individual workers do not have the capability to fight for better wages for the most part.

I don't support government bailouts for the Auto industry. I don't mind a Union worker making darn good wages and having a sweet retirement plan. But I don't want my tax dollars paying for someone to sit on their rears and nearly make more than I do by working a 40hr week. The auto companies should declare bankruptcy and cancel the Union contracts. It has come down to every man for themselves right now. What a world and enough of me on my soapbox.
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Message 834510 - Posted: 26 Nov 2008, 14:58:45 UTC - in response to Message 834414.  

I think Unions contributed to the rise of the middle class in this country (USA). It took bloodshed to get money out of the hands of the capitalists that own business. But Unions appear to have lost the war with Globalization. You can't compete against dirt cheap labor. The masses of workers in the USA have a very poor future in my view. That does not bode well for the long term future of the USA either. We will be nothing better than a third world nation with rich and poor and not much in between.

The middle class in the USA is an endangered species with the decline of Unions. Individual workers do not have the capability to fight for better wages for the most part.

I don't support government bailouts for the Auto industry. I don't mind a Union worker making darn good wages and having a sweet retirement plan. But I don't want my tax dollars paying for someone to sit on their rears and nearly make more than I do by working a 40hr week. The auto companies should declare bankruptcy and cancel the Union contracts. It has come down to every man for themselves right now. What a world and enough of me on my soapbox.

THe Brits went through the same thing when the US workers were being paid poorly and producing more of everything the Brits could and they did it cheaper. THe US is in for a long haul. Don't expect much of a middle class when its done.



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Message 834514 - Posted: 26 Nov 2008, 15:24:20 UTC

Indeed, the history of the struggle for the right to organise is based on the blood of those that fought for that right.

It is sad to see the devastation wrought on the trade unions by the last 30 years. Here in the UK the Thatcherite government declared war on the unions. An iconic struggle was The Battle of Orgreave
(1984) during the miners strike where the state unleashed it's full power onto the workers (miners) fighting to keep their jobs and their communities going.

It was a war on the working class of the country and those who were opposed to, for example, the privatisation of state owned industries and laissez-faire capitalism brought in by Thatcher.

Maybe, given the current debacle of the global economies, a resurgence might take place in more unionisation of labour, including that of cheap labour wherever it may be in the world.



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Message 834570 - Posted: 26 Nov 2008, 18:27:32 UTC
Last modified: 26 Nov 2008, 18:37:03 UTC

I can't wait to see the workers in Africa and the Far East unite. I can't wait to see the little African and Far East children come running in their cute little Komsomol uniforms.

I just find it weird that they ditched that in the Soviet Union, that they ditched the Soviet Union itself and all what it stood for back in 1991. :-O

Maybe it was ditched because it turned out that the "Komsomol was a school of Capitalism", as they said...
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Message 834597 - Posted: 26 Nov 2008, 19:44:01 UTC - in response to Message 834570.  

There is a strong history of trade unionism in Africa. I am sure you are aware of the role that trade unions played in the ending of apartheid in South Africa.

As an example of international solidarity:
African trade unions stop shipment of death

There is plenty of information on this website for you to read..International trade unions working together
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Message 836299 - Posted: 1 Dec 2008, 23:09:49 UTC - in response to Message 832896.  

Looking forward to your rant over the bail-out of the wealthy S-O-B's too.
Or are you only angry at working people?

But wait, you seem to love when the gov't meddles. So here it is meddling. Shouldn't you be thrilled??

I think the Wall St bail-out is so much more deserving of your anger than unions, who have fought for working standards, pensions, holidays, overtime, weekends, health care, maternity leave, and a little thing I like to call respect.

Heh, "respect," yeah being a union member is soooo deserving of respect. But be that as it may, what the unions have mostly done is drive their costs through the roof and priced themselves out of the labor market.

Oops.

If you have seen some moron deliberately destroying the property of the employer with no retribution taken by that employer, the question becomes...who's to blame for that situation?
Every collective agreement has clear language on firing.
If the moron wasn't fired for his vandalism, don't blame the union.
Blame weak management for being the gutless little bumsniffers that they are.

Pfffft. This is just silly and ignores the reality of workplace damage because you simply can't fire union members that easily. No one will blab on the type of idiot that does that kind of damage.

In the case of willfull destruction of company property as you described, there are no procedures to follow or opportunities to rehabilitate behaviours to offer.
There is only the door.
If the company didn't exercise this right, it isn't the union's problem.

Uh huh. Sure. If the company could fire union members simply by stating that they willfully destroyed company property, without any evidence whatsoever, they then could be fired at will.

What's the point of having a union if its members can be fired at will?
Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
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Message 836334 - Posted: 2 Dec 2008, 1:42:37 UTC - in response to Message 836299.  

What's the point of having a union if its members can be fired at will?

All employment is at will. They can always close up shop, contract it out or offshore it. The myth that unions protect jobs has come home to roost. Unions can protect work rules but not the job. They can protect from an individual abusive manager. They can not force there to be jobs.

Anyone want to wager if right to work states fare better or worse over the next couple of years?


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Message 836335 - Posted: 2 Dec 2008, 1:48:54 UTC - in response to Message 836334.  
Last modified: 2 Dec 2008, 1:55:35 UTC

What's the point of having a union if its members can be fired at will?

All employment is at will. They can always close up shop, contract it out or offshore it. The myth that unions protect jobs has come home to roost. Unions can protect work rules but not the job. They can protect from an individual abusive manager. They can not force there to be jobs.

Anyone want to wager if right to work states fare better or worse over the next couple of years?


Not sure if you are correct on this one.....
Wisconsin happens to be a 'at will' state....I don't know about other states....

Which means you can be hired or fired for any reason the employer wishes to....as long as it doesn't violate federal laws pertaining to discrimination, etc..

The only other factor is if they claim to dismiss you 'with cause' or not, which determines whether they are obligated to pay you unemployment benefits.....

They can fire you just because the don't like your attitude....but if they cannot justify it as being 'with cause' then they have to pay you unemployment....

I learned this the hard way 6 years ago when I was fired from my job of 17 years because the newly promoted manager just didn't happen to like me....
I had to debate my case with the unemployment board because he tried to say that I was fired for insubordination....and was not going to pay unemployment...

I won the case....he was a liar.....
"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

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Message 836345 - Posted: 2 Dec 2008, 3:11:24 UTC - in response to Message 836335.  
Last modified: 2 Dec 2008, 3:12:33 UTC

What's the point of having a union if its members can be fired at will?

All employment is at will. They can always close up shop, contract it out or offshore it. The myth that unions protect jobs has come home to roost. Unions can protect work rules but not the job. They can protect from an individual abusive manager. They can not force there to be jobs.

Anyone want to wager if right to work states fare better or worse over the next couple of years?


Not sure if you are correct on this one.....
Wisconsin happens to be a 'at will' state....I don't know about other states....

I believe there are 22 right to work states. I would not be surprised if a lot of companies relocate their union operations out of the other 28 states.

Which means you can be hired or fired for any reason the employer wishes to....as long as it doesn't violate federal laws pertaining to discrimination, etc..

There is a difference between contract and non contract employment, however all management has to do is wait for the union contract to expire. Everyone at that point is at will. Then send out that Federal 60 day notice of plant closure and it is all over. Or if it gets really bad the judge in the bankruptcy can void the contract or any of its provisions, like the pension plan. I expect that is coming to Detroit.

The only other factor is if they claim to dismiss you 'with cause' or not, which determines whether they are obligated to pay you unemployment benefits.....

They can fire you just because the don't like your attitude....but if they cannot justify it as being 'with cause' then they have to pay you unemployment....

I learned this the hard way 6 years ago when I was fired from my job of 17 years because the newly promoted manager just didn't happen to like me....
I had to debate my case with the unemployment board because he tried to say that I was fired for insubordination....and was not going to pay unemployment...

I won the case....he was a liar.....

Watched someone at my job not realize he was at will. He found out the hard way when he was fired for insubordination and given the bums rush out the door. The company didn't have to pay for unemployment in that case, but he still got it from a previous job.
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Message 836354 - Posted: 2 Dec 2008, 3:41:10 UTC

First, I haven’t read through all the posts so if this has been touched on elsewhere, apologies:

As it turns out, I a member of 2 unions (Marine Workers, obviously, but because I am an occasional forklift jockey, Stevedores as well) and they end up taking about ¼ of my wages.

I understand the original intent of trade unions: to provide a living wage and safe working conditions for workers. But, at least in the Vancouver waterfront, unions have become utterly corrupt organizations controlled by the Hell’s Angels (here) and assorted other organized crime entities elsewhere.

I do hate the idea that the people who control prostitution (enslavement of women) and the drug trade in Vancouver also get ¼ of my paycheque.
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Message 836364 - Posted: 2 Dec 2008, 4:57:29 UTC

UAW contracts are not part of the real world

Union-Tribune editorial

December 1, 2008

There is no doubt Detroit's Big Three automakers are in trouble. But thanks to an overabundance of spin and sleight of hand by some Democratic lawmakers, many Americans are probably a little confused as to why that is. And perhaps that was the idea.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., made a stink when the top executives of General Motors, Ford and Chrysler flew into Washington on private jets. They were there to ask for a bailout from taxpayers and warn that, if they didn't get it, the industry could go belly up. Reid talked about how that sent the wrong signal to folks in Reno, Las Vegas and Searchlight, Nev.

We can see how it would. We're not going to defend the travel choices of auto company bigwigs. If you're going to show up on Capitol Hill with a tin cup, then it's probably not a good idea to make a gold-plated entrance. Still, since we're on the subject, we have to wonder how the good folks in Reno, Las Vegas and Searchlight would react if they got a close-up look at what the economic realities of life are for members of the United Auto Workers union. You see, despite attempts by Reid and other union-beholden lawmakers to deflect attention away from organized labor and toward corporate fat cats, the tactic just doesn't wash.

UAW members enjoy the muscle of a union that is one of the most combative in the country. Union workers at the Big Three earn about $75 an hour in wages and benefits. Workers at nonunion auto makers earn $45 an hour or less. More than a million retirees and dependents now receive pension and health care benefits from Chrysler, Ford and GM. As for the benefits, UAW members and their families enjoy a top-notch health care system that provides for hospital stays and other comprehensive coverage. For this peace of mind, they pay just $10 a month for individuals and $21 a month for families. According to an analysis by a conservative think tank, similar quality health care for small businesses and the self-employed would run about $1,000 per month for each person or family. UAW members also get seven weeks' vacation annually. In fact, in what has to be the UAW's masterpiece, the union has even cooked up a way to make sure that UAW workers are paid even when they're no longer working. Yes, you read that right. Under the “jobs bank” program agreed to by the Big Three, when UAW workers are laid off, the car companies continue to pay workers about 95 percent of their wages and all of their benefits for a set period of time – as if all that money was put aside in a jobs bank. These union wages and benefits sure seem to fit the description of gold-plated. If there is going to be a bailout of the automakers – and we hope there isn't – the UAW must tear up its labor agreements and come back to the real world where the rest of us live. Otherwise, the union will rue the day it let greed get the better of it.
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Message 836612 - Posted: 3 Dec 2008, 3:33:49 UTC

The day of the union is long dead............Long Live The King!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'd been a union member for over a quarter of a century & agree that in the past, they were effective. Now, they are destroyers of jobs.

It has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread regarding capitalists & their business'es. Many business'es originally started out either one man or a small group of men & today, many of those business'es are now powerful corporations.

I'm now a capitalist with his own business & I can guarantee you this: - NO ONE will ever dictate to me to employ a trade union should my business ever get large enough - I'll close it down 1st & return to being a one man show.

THAT is how much unions have done for me & those of my generation. however, there have been smarta***'s out there who knew the way of the land & succeeded in become management & got rich off the backs of their colleagues - WHAT does that teach about our fellow workers?
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Message 836635 - Posted: 3 Dec 2008, 5:22:05 UTC - in response to Message 836612.  

WHAT does that teach about our fellow workers?


Seems to indicate they all thought just as you do.

ME FIRST!
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Message 836746 - Posted: 3 Dec 2008, 17:23:56 UTC - in response to Message 836612.  

WHAT does that teach about our fellow workers?

Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men. - Lord Acton

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Message 836833 - Posted: 4 Dec 2008, 1:34:05 UTC - in response to Message 836612.  

The day of the union is long dead............Long Live The King!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'd been a union member for over a quarter of a century & agree that in the past, they were effective. Now, they are destroyers of jobs.

It has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread regarding capitalists & their business'es. Many business'es originally started out either one man or a small group of men & today, many of those business'es are now powerful corporations.

I'm now a capitalist with his own business & I can guarantee you this: - NO ONE will ever dictate to me to employ a trade union should my business ever get large enough - I'll close it down 1st & return to being a one man show.

THAT is how much unions have done for me & those of my generation. however, there have been smarta***'s out there who knew the way of the land & succeeded in become management & got rich off the backs of their colleagues - WHAT does that teach about our fellow workers?



I agree with everything you say Sirius B.

I remember, back in the end of the 1970s, having a conversation with a colleague and Union activist, and both of us with Bachelors of Science degrees.

He told me that the Union hierachy tells the members what to do. I said the power of a well lead Union comes from the members, therefore the members told the Union activists what they wanted doing.

He disagreed, and I told him democracy had therefore died, and I turned against Unions.

Red Robbo comes to mind from the bloody late 1960s and early 1970s in Leyland.
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Message 837110 - Posted: 5 Dec 2008, 4:18:31 UTC - in response to Message 836635.  

WHAT does that teach about our fellow workers?


Seems to indicate they all thought just as you do.

ME FIRST!


Thanks for the insult. Until 3 years ago, I have always put others first before myself, & every time got kicked in the teeth - My fault really for not wiseing up to people like you a lot sooner..........But as my late mother used to say.........

Better Late than Never
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Message 837212 - Posted: 5 Dec 2008, 15:42:03 UTC

Now Now boys play nice or theirs No cake.


In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
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Message 837336 - Posted: 6 Dec 2008, 1:02:47 UTC - in response to Message 837212.  

Now Now boys play nice or theirs No cake.

Then I'll take pie.
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Message 837380 - Posted: 6 Dec 2008, 5:32:42 UTC - in response to Message 837336.  

Now Now boys play nice or theirs No cake.

Then I'll take pie.


Don't you always?

<---- Misfit


"I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me

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Message 837403 - Posted: 6 Dec 2008, 8:14:08 UTC - in response to Message 837380.  

Now Now boys play nice or theirs No cake.

Then I'll take pie.

Don't you always?

<---- Misfit

Yes I do. I like pie. I'm also part of a union. A union so great that we only got a 3% COLA increase while non-union management received up to a 18.5% raise. :/
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Message boards : Politics : The unions have been hung by their own petards..............


 
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