Well........
I have held this thought for years, and it has come to pass..........
First with Chrysler in the '70s and now it has really come to roost.
I have always said that the union's highjacking of wages and benefits would always come back to haunt them.....

They lived high on the hog at a time when our economy and our wages could afford their over priced and under achieving vehicles.........

Now the duck has squatted and they are reaping what they have sown....
They get no sympathy from me........and they should not get any benefit from my tax dollars either.....

Ya think I am gonna get anything if I holler for a bailout?????

So the Hondas and Toyotas come along and manufacture a car at a reasonable wage and amazing quality.....

Let the UAW eat their @70.00 an hour cake........(estimated with all benefits)......

They have bled the economy for far too long........now we all have to pay for it..........

Just don't ask me to pay my tax dollars to subsidize their past excesses..........I have already done so by buying 455 Buicks..............

Edit...and my daily driver is a '92 Olds rustbucket Cutlass......My fun car is a vintage '85 Mazda RX7 GSLSE......

And everything else I ever owned and drove since I had a license was GM..........
And baby.......I am 51yo........so that's a lot of sheet metal........

---

"Time is simply the mechanism that keeps everything from happening all at once."

I guess you've never been in a union then..

---

Honda and toyota generally speaking are building cars and SUVs in Nowhereville. Where local politicians would sell there sister to get any kind of manufacturing. Let alone all the massive tax breaks that these companies get for building and running a plant in the Nowhereville area. The local wages are so suppressed from lack of work that making $12-$15/hour looks like a good thing for vehicles that cost $20-$45k. the wages are so low that it'd make it impossible for the workers to buy their own product. This is hardly reasonable.

---

In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

The unions have with no doubt done a lot of good things for the blue collar workers, many have been spared for a life long exploitation and a run-down of their health by working in a toxic or physically hard work place. The work hours have been cut down also negotiated by the unions, with longer holiday time, and that can only be good. Blue collar workers are humans too, I don't think anybody here would think that they should be crippled by their work and be considered as replaceable parts. People have a right to be able to work as long as they can and want to, to support themselves, not to be forced out of their working life because of that they have had their health run down.

A minimum wage, as the unions have negotiated, have raised the economy in society because that has increased the wealth and purchasing power. The problem is when the unions have set the market mechanics out of order, when they have claimed and negotiated a higher minimum wage than what the market can bear. And that is what you are seeing over there now in the car manufacturing industry. We see it here in the industries where we have been leading, clothes manufacturing, where the companies have closed the factories here and have the labor heavy parts outsourced to Poland or the far East, where the cost of labor is cheaper. With unemployment as the result.

Having been a member of a union most of my life, I am also aware of the trade-union careerists, they are very well paid, by the members of the unions, and they are not people I want to support. I read a book written by the ex-wife of a politician and ex-minister in the Social Democratic party here, the old blue collar and union party, where she told about what took place behind the curtains there, and about all the fringe benefits they give themselves. She told about the parties there, they are more extravagant than parties given by the Queen!

Right now I pay about 75$ per month for being in my union, where I get a magazine per month. That is one expensive magazine! I haven't resigned my membership for two reasons, I have grown up in the tradition of being organized in a union, so to me it's a natural thing, and there are some benefits, I don't have the use for at the moment, but I might want those later. And if - IF - I get in trouble at my work place, I can get advise and help from a lawyer paid by the union. But I might consider if I want to pay those money per month for my membership considering what I get in return. In fact, I think I can negotiate better myself than they can, they are very militant in their approach to things. I'll see...

---

"I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me

I guess you've never been in a union then..

Only against my good free will..........
When I was, it seemed that they only served to shore up the lackeys.....the 'don't give a s..t's.........those that had no reason to be on the shop floor except they had accumulated a certain number of hours on the clock.......
Not because they had worked harder, in fact, many of them were the worst laggards I have ever known......but they clocked in every day and did as little as they could to get by.......and so they prospered. I remember times when the lead POS got tired of working too hard because the machine was running smoothly and producing so well that the SOB saw fit to toss a piece of scrap into it to jam up the whole nine yards and shut it down......creating 1000,00 of dollars in scrap...just so his union bros could take a break whilst a few of them cleaned up the mess.

So it has been as GM for many years.....and now they whimper and whine because their soft pillow has gone cold.

No tears from me......I have gnawed the bone since I was 14yo.......and always took pride in doing the best I could, not as little as I could to get by.

---

"Time is simply the mechanism that keeps everything from happening all at once."

I guess you've never been in a union then..

Only against my good free will..........
When I was, it seemed that they only served to shore up the lackeys......

...

I once resigned my membership of a union because they wouldn't help me in a case, where I was in my right about the wage I should have instead of what the employer wanted to pay me, given the difference of my job description and what tasks and responsibilities I actually had in my job. I wouldn't pay for that trade-union careerist sitting on his flat butt telling me that he couldn't do anything for me at all!

---

"I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me

The point being.......
Unions outlived their practical usefulness waayyyyyyyyyyy back....

There was a time when they served to raise the cause of the common man so that he could not be trod upon by the bossman.........those who held all the cards....and the money.

But after they got past that, they kept going, and sought only to raise themselves above the rest of those in the labor market......and that is why GM is where they are today.....driven to their own death by those who need it to survive.

They just don't get it........you cannot demand a higher standard of living above those whom you expect to buy your products and hope to have it last.......
I am surprised they lasted this long........

---

"Time is simply the mechanism that keeps everything from happening all at once."

Looking forward to your rant over the bail-out of the wealthy S-O-B's too.
Or are you only angry at working people?

I think the Wall St bail-out is so much more deserving of your anger than unions, who have fought for working standards, pensions, holidays, overtime, weekends, health care, maternity leave, and a little thing I like to call respect.

If you have seen some moron deliberately destroying the property of the employer with no retribution taken by that employer, the question becomes...who's to blame for that situation?
Every collective agreement has clear language on firing.
If the moron wasn't fired for his vandalism, don't blame the union.
Blame weak management for being the gutless little bumsniffers that they are.

The collective agreements contain steps the company has to take to fire an employee.
For performance problems, behaviour problems or substance abuse problems, there are provisions the company must make to allow the employee to turn the situation around and become productive.
If the employee does not comply with their end of turning their problems around, they will end up out of work.

In the case of willfull destruction of company property as you described, there are no procedures to follow or opportunities to rehabilitate behaviours to offer.
There is only the door.
If the company didn't exercise this right, it isn't the union's problem.

Robert.......stop dead in your torn up tracks.........

Blame management??? S..t.......the unions took away the ability of management to reward someone who worked his butt off for the good of the company........compensation was only tied to the hands on the clock, not what you did or how you did it......
All incentive to achieve was dashed by the union ideals........you just had to put in your frickin' time......
The work ethic that this country had in it's earlier years (and is still embraced by some) was laid to waste by the unions.......

And don't blame the employer for not taking action against the bum who threw the wrench into the works......you obviously have not been there, my friend.......
If you had, you would know about the 'wall of silence' that exists among 'union brothers'.......who would rat out the one that did the dirty deed??? COME ON....

---

"Time is simply the mechanism that keeps everything from happening all at once."

there are still uses for unions. Just not in auto making. or in professional sports. wanna talk about outragious income talk to a ball player in any sport. They produce nothing and expect the world. Besides if they really are a union shouldnt every player in every league get all the same salaries

---

In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

Used to be in a Union. Salaries rose WAY too quick and we were almost outsourced. We voted the Union out and the environment has been MUCH more positive ever since.

---

I'll bet dollars to donuts another message has hit my spam folder.

---

me@rescam.org

I'll bet dollars to donuts another message has hit my spam folder.

I predict a sharp rebound in the Global Economy during the first few months
of the New Year. Don't ask me how I know, I just think I do!
The smart money will go into manufacturing, resource, and utilities, the sectors that have been neglected, and are ready for a comeback.

More and more I'm neglecting the Seti Fora, since it's being overrun by what I would call naysayers and rednecks. I miss those of a superior intellectual
bent. You know ... "Who You" ... are.

:o0)

And just which cat-egory would you put me in?

Just asking....it is MY thread.....
Naysayer, Redneck, kitty lover, whatever.....how do you identify me?
A penny for your thoughts......and I shall not be offended whatever they are......

---

"Time is simply the mechanism that keeps everything from happening all at once."

That's right. The union workers are being paid too much! I went to college four years and yet only earned $21.70 per hour (plus benefits) at retirement in 1997. Besides, the Toyotas and Hondas are better cars and these two things are a big factor in causing problems for the Big Three which are now getting smaller.

---

That's right. The union workers are being paid too much! I went to college four years and yet only earned $21.70 per hour (plus benefits) at retirement in 1997. Besides, the Toyotas and Hondas are better cars and these two things are a big factor in causing problems for the Big Three which are now getting smaller.

Interesting you should mention "better." IIRC a couple of years ago GM passed the Japanese is car new car quality. It would have taken a decade of this though to erase the perception that american cars are junk. Interestingly now that the Japanese cars are being made in America they are being made sloppy.

As for the big 3 auto makers, except for GM that somehow got its Saturn plant outside the influence of the Detroit unions, each of them has tried to automate the plants they have or close them and move them elsewhere. The union doesn't like that. We know why, the new plant wouldn't have as many union members to fleece for their dues. I believe that the union members are going to have to deal with that progress when their pension plan goes BK and the PBGC tells them they are going to get 25% of what they thought they were. Unfortunately there is no way to escape this.

As to the BOD and their decisions, with the unions blocking their ability to turn the companies for long term profits and stability they were left to chase short term profits. Big trucks that are cheap to make. What they need to do is bulldoze the buildings and put up automated plants in their place. One where the workers don't build cars but fix robots. It will allow them to drop costs to be competitive and increase quality to be competitive.

If I were a big 3 union member I'd be thinking about suing the union bosses for their refusal to allow the companies to modernize because so much of the pension plan was in the companies own stock.

We will see how this all shakes out, but as long as those pension albatrosses are on the big 3 they won't be able to turn a profit and will be in BK.

It is not the individual members of the unions who are at fault anymore than a professional sports player for his gigantic contract. The fault lies with the owners who bend to the will of the union bosses and agree to pay that amount of money, who then pass the costs on to the consumer. It is the consumers fault for agreeing to pay that cost. If my employer offers me $20 an hour or $70 an hour you can believe I'm going to take the 70. It is the companies fault for refusing to change their business plan. The big 3 spend millions on lobbyists to fight congress' attempts to raise the MPG standards. They shot themselves in their own feet. Had they started manufacturing hybrids when Toyota did they wouldn't be in this mess. Let the Big 3 go Chapter 11 instead of giving them any bailout money.

---

me@rescam.org

I have to admit that I agree with Misfit on this one.

It is not the individual members of the unions who are at fault anymore than a professional sports player for his gigantic contract. The fault lies with the owners who bend to the will of the union bosses and agree to pay that amount of money, who then pass the costs on to the consumer. It is the consumers fault for agreeing to pay that cost. If my employer offers me $20 an hour or $70 an hour you can believe I'm going to take the 70. It is the companies fault for refusing to change their business plan. The big 3 spend millions on lobbyists to fight congress' attempts to raise the MPG standards. They shot themselves in their own feet. Had they started manufacturing hybrids when Toyota did they wouldn't be in this mess. Let the Big 3 go Chapter 11 instead of giving them any bailout money.

100% agreement.

---